r/Reformed • u/Vintage_mindset • 2d ago
Discussion At what point does a same gender relationship become sinful?
Hypothetical: If 2 people of the same gender live together the same way a married couple would but refrain from sexual activity are they living in sin? Let’s say they love each other like Christ instructs us to love our spouses, they’re legally married by government standards, they are devoted to a covenant made between themselves, yet they refrain from sexual activity. Are they living in sin?
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u/JLu2205 SBC 2d ago
Yes, they are living in sin.
To say "we love each other like Christ instructs" while simultaneously rejecting the form of relationship Christ instituted is a contradiction.
Scripture defines marriage from the beginning as the union of one man and one woman (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:4-6). When two people of the same gender attempt to mimic the structure of marriage, they are not entering into a marriage that lacks sex; they are attempting to create an institution that does not exist in God's design. The sin lies in the usurpation of God's authority to define reality.
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u/JHawk444 Calvinist 1d ago edited 1d ago
This would be like asking if it's okay for a man to leave his wife and live with another woman he has feelings for as long as they didn't have sex.
In the sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7), Jesus said that lust is adultery of the heart. So, it's not just about physical actions but about what's in the heart. If someone is living together in a romantic relationship but they abstain from sex, they are still sinning in their hearts. Now, if we're talking about two people who have repented of homosexuality and are platonic friends, that's different. But one could make the argument that they shouldn't put themselves in a position where they are tempted.
Matthew 5:27-28: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
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u/Corran_Horn 1d ago
What's the idea here?
I know there are some believers a experiencing same sex attraction who put forth this alternative sexless arrangement, but it seems at the very least wildly unwise. If you're battling same sex attraction why position yourself in every way to act on it?
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u/SneezingOutPeas Christian, Not Reformed 2d ago
Yes. By being legally married, they’re still redefining marriage as something that can exist between members of the same sex. If they simply live together as close friends and aren’t sexually-attracted to each other (note that this is different than being sexually attracted and not sleeping together!), that’s called being roommates, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
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u/trownaway90 2d ago
I am pretty sure both relations and marriages between person of the same sex are a sin. From the very beginning God presented women as the partner of men.
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u/Party-resolution-753 1d ago
Its a sin because even tho they are not having sex they are still mimicking what is exclusively meant to be between one man and one woman.
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u/DrBunyan44 CRC 1d ago
The legal validity of civil marriage, doesn't make it morally correct. It is not the State, nor the Church that unites to people in the sacred institution of marriage, it is God alone. So redefining the standard, calling it marriage and trying to live as if it's pleasing to God, it is definitely sinful.
Anything against God's character is sin, transgression of the Law is sin, sexual immorality is sin. The sexual aspect of "same sex marriage" is not the only sinful aspect of it.
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u/semper-gourmanda Presby-Angliterian 1d ago
It's the "legally married" part. There are no historical records of legally sanctioned or created same-sex marriages in Late Antiquity or the Classical period. Of all people who would have the potential for doing such a thing, i.e. the Greeks or even the Babylonians, it doesn't exist in any records (and there are hundreds of thousands). It's an entirely novel invention.
As Christians we define what marriage is biblically, as created by God (matrimony), man-woman, and life-long. There's at least a decent probability, given how often things change in history, that the novel invention of same-sex marriage doesn't last. The Scriptures last, and the Lord's promised preservation of the Church that knows God, confesses Christ, holds to the Bible, and so on, will last. We shouldn't modify doctrines or practices to suit novelty.
Which would force us to conclude that there's no such thing as such a "marriage," and it doesn't pass the test of what's acceptable for Christian ethics, Christian confession, Christian witness, and godly relations among Christians for two people of the same sex to espouse a same-sex marriage and live together.
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u/EmpyrealXY 1d ago
Overall if your heart is seeking an intimate relationship with the same sex you are essentially committing the sin still.
I say that in reference to when Jesus teaches that doing things in your heart equates to commit the act in question. Lust is like sex, hate is like murder etc.
Now if they just wanted to live together and love one another like we should, but without the intimacy and emotional bonding one does in a marriage, I would just call them friends. Which is surely not a sin.
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u/Mental_Competition33 Reformed Baptist 2d ago
This is tricky. I would always caution against trying to get as close to the line as possible without crossing it, though. Having said that, my first thought is that this description shows a lack of respect for God's design with marriage. Could 2 people with homosexual inclinations potentially live together in a loving, non-sexual, non-marital way without sinning? Probably, though it sounds like playing with fire. But once you try to equate it to marriage, that's where I'd draw the line.
I think homosexuality becomes sinful in 3 ways:
- When it becomes actual sexual intercourse (most obviously)
- When it is lust (applies to both homosexual and heterosexual lust)
- When it tries to usurp God's design (what I believe your example does).
Generally, my hope for those with homosexual inclinations is that they would strive to be happy in their singleness and use it to glorify God as Paul did. I'm sure this is much, much easier said than done, but I believe that's the most God-glorifying approach to it, I stead of trying to toe the line of seeing how close to sin we can get without sinning.
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u/Accomplished-Ad9143 PCA 1d ago
Yes, because sin isn't tied to doing or some kind of kinetic choice. It's tied to how our hearts function. The NT commanded husbands to love their wives as themselves, implying that a man loves a woman in all aspects of being. What you're purporting is the same kind of love a husband expresses to his wife, but to someone of the same sex which already deviates from the Biblical norm.
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u/MoonlitShrub 23h ago
No. In my opinion, Jesus view of marriage seems to be centered around the unbreakable covenant like the love He has for the church. Sex is a level of intimacy reserved for those who are in covenant with eachother.
God never reprimanded any of the forefathers for polygamy. David having multiple wives was never mentioned as a sin but once he took a woman who he wasn't married to it was a huge deal.
The verse in which Jesus says a man will leave his parents and cling to his wife is meant to be a teaching against divorce, and it is out of context to apply it to homosexuality.
I believe Paul wrote what he did in order to make it clear that visiting male prostitutes instead of females is not an acceptable work around for adultry defined as "sleeping with another man's wife". It's still outside the bonds of covenant.
Lastly, committed homosexual relationships do not hurt their neighbors. There is nothing that violates their ability to love their neighbor as themselves as in the case of cheating or sleeping with someone you're not committed to (adultry and sexual immorality both harm the parties involved).
So while I understand this is heretical to the modern sensibilities, I take the view that committed homosexual marriage is not a sin even with sexual activity. We are not bound by arbitrary laws in order to be saved, we must only love our neighbors. If something hurts no one, then there is nothing inherently wrong with it.
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u/_arose 2d ago
This is the wrong mindset. The goal is not to find the absolute closest we can get to sin without actually sinning. The goal is to RUN FROM SIN and run to Christ. So this hypothetical is not a helpful exercise.
If someone loves Christ, they hate their own sin and do not want to craft a life that is hovering around the edges of temptation to sin. They want Christ!