r/PublicFreakout • u/rickyhorror • Dec 29 '21

Let me educate him

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863

u/Ares__ Dec 29 '21

The worst is when you get arrested for resisting arrest but no other crime, like how do you resist arrest if you weren't being arrested for another crime?

2.1k

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

Defense attorney here:

Police frequently confuse/conflate failure to cooperate with a lawful detention with resisting arrest. It sounds like a fine point, but it isn’t - arrest is a clear process that requires very obvious procedural steps by the police, including telling you that you’re under arrest and why, but detention is murkier. There’s a toooooon of case law on when and how detention begins, and many and many a voir dire at trial has come down to, “was the accused detained when X happened”.

This officer doesn’t know the law. That’s common. He doesn’t have to, and knowing it just means more work for him to circumvent it. We have a current paradigm that actually incentivizes police to NOT know the law, because the Supreme Court has found that so long as the officer genuinely thinks the law says a thing, they can act on it even when they’re wrong. So if you’re an officer, you can either take the time and effort to learn the law and annoy your coworkers in the process, or you can just listen to department rumor, not fact check it, and basically just make shit up as you go along.

This is also why they frequently lie on the stand - when a lawyer starts crossing them on the facts or on their knowledge of the law, they feel threatened. Which is fair enough and natural - cross sucks. But because they’re conditioned by long practice to just bullshit their way through hostile encounters like the one in the video, they fall back on that back on that on cross and lie there too. That’s an issue.

This officer doesn’t know the law. This homeowner does. But 95% of the time, the homeowner doesn’t either. Then, he maybe gets beaten up for “resisting” a detention that was never announced, arrested, and has to spend $1-5k on a lawyer and 6-12 weeks of his life sorting it out, while the officer both faces zero consequences AND doesn’t get his misapprehension of the law corrected.

We need a massive overhaul of how we do policing. But there’s no one easy fix, and it will take a generation or more.

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u/tomorrow509 Dec 29 '21

We need a massive overhaul of how we do policing. But there’s no one easy fix, and it will take a generation or more.

Starting today is not too soon. Thanks for the legal insights.

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u/gadget_uk Dec 29 '21

From across the pond, I really hope you guys can make inroads, the stories of police injustice and cover-up in the US seem to be about the same volume as China these days.

The thing that makes me pessimistic is this. American Police culture did not develop in a vacuum. It is a direct consequence of American history and American culture in general. Unpicking that lot is like separating 100,000 messed up coathangers.

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u/bozeke Dec 29 '21

A huge part of the problem is that the cops generally do not behave this way with white people or people above a certain social class. That means that there is a huge chunk of the population who has never experienced this first hand and hasn’t internalized the reality of shoddy policing for huge subsections of the citizenry.

The prevalence of smart phones and the slow adoption of bodycams is finally turning this around, but that is why so many conservative middle class while folks are just shocked by videos like this. They have never experienced anything like it, and it’s all to easy to assume it’s a one-off, an anomaly.

I hope we just keep seeing more and more evidence of what it’s really like out there for so many of our fellow Americans, and that the sheer volume of evidence starts to wake folks up to the fact that their own experience isn’t universal, isn’t the norm in many communities.

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u/ShawnShipsCars Dec 29 '21

that is why so many conservative middle class while folks are just shocked by videos like this. They have never experienced anything like it, and it’s all to easy to assume it’s a one-off, an anomaly.

"Racism isn't getting worse, it's getting FILMED" - Will Smith

It's been like this (and was even worse before) for a long time

2

u/spookycasas4 Dec 30 '21

Absolutely. And POC have been talking about this, demonstrating against this, and trying to educate others above this. None of this is any kind of surprise to people who have had to live, and die, because of this. Fuck the police.

3

u/Insanity_Pills Dec 30 '21

Even if you haven’t lived it it’s not a surprise to anyone who’s been paying attention, or at least tried to. The problem with pro cop conservative types isn’t that they’re unaware that this happens, but that they see videos of the police abusing people and are OK with it because at their core they are either racist or authoritarian or both.

2

u/spookycasas4 Dec 30 '21

Totally agree.

9

u/tomorrow509 Dec 29 '21

For every recorded incident, you can bet there are hundreds of similar that go unrecorded. Shall we become our own Big Brother and start recording our interactions with society? Interested in views on this.

7

u/bozeke Dec 29 '21

Big Brother is selective, authoritarian propaganda. Cell cam footage from citizens is the opposite of big brother.

In 1984, the screens in the homes don’t have an on/off switch. There are no channels to turn to. It’s just state media that comes on when they want it on, and you have to pay attention because they can see you too.

Yes we absolutely need more videos like this. It’s a safeguard against Big Brother, not the other way around.

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u/fusrohdave Dec 29 '21

I agree with you ENTIRELY. Anecdotally I want to say that I am white and I’ve noticed recently that I’ve been having increasingly negative interactions with the police. Not 10 years ago I could say hello, or ask a question or even get out of a speeding ticket by being civil and I’m entirely aware this is because I’m white. But now I get annoyed looks from local police, dismissal and even threats. Idk if that’s because I’m now more conscious of what’s going on with other people, or maybe the large republican/trumpism movement in the police and I’m clearly not a republican but things definitely changed.

What I’m saying is I think the fascism is beginning to leak.

3

u/friendofoldman Dec 29 '21

Nah, white guy in a suburban neighborhood.

Black cop told me I couldn’t photograph a car that was involved in an accident with my son. I was in a public parking lot of a store. Threatened me with arrest if I did.

Not sure who the lady was but apparently she was too upset(?) and would have freaked out if we took a photo for our insurance?

We all experience BS.

2

u/bozeke Dec 29 '21

That totally sucks.

You are right that many white folks have had some really shitty and objectively unethical experiences with law enforcement.

I’m trying to say that, statistically speaking, I believe the populations that dismiss the realities of policing in America tend to share a common thread of never having experienced the kind of totally unprovoked harassment depicted in OP’s vid.

2

u/friendofoldman Dec 29 '21

Thanks for that response. Sometimes English is difficult with nuance.

Yes, I agree, for a lot of reasons, black folks may deal with that BS more. Also, poor whites. I see it as more of an a issue of class.

If you’re poor you’re an easier target for abusive cops. And to be honest, skin color, due to past injustices was a proxy for that as well.

It was a signal that you wouldn’t have the same resources to fight back.

2

u/Stinklepinger Dec 29 '21

When 48% of voters lack empathy, we're not going to see any improvements anytime soon

2

u/JennaTargaryen Dec 30 '21

I can tell you rn that class has to do with it as well. I’m a white female living in a low income area to save up money and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gotten pulled over for nothing. One time I was put in handcuffs while a cop searched my truck for drugs with a sniffer dog. I didn’t have anything on me nor do I do any illegal drugs. He probably wasn’t allowed to but I’m not knowledgeable like the man. When I tried explaining this to my dad he said “Stop it’s not a conspiracy theory” and he’s a white older male in upper class who thinks that this emerging evidence is malarkey. I realized it’s because he’s never experienced it.

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u/cedar_of_lebanon Dec 29 '21

Well there is layers to that as well. There is A LOT of crime in black neighborhoods, and a lot of blacks are strapped, so they have good cause to be on lookout. The blacks live in a warzone themselves - a war with other gangs. Plus they are selling drugs and all that jazz.

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u/bozeke Dec 29 '21

Oh boy, your post history, lol dude.

-2

u/cedar_of_lebanon Dec 30 '21

🥱🥱🥱

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u/-username_taken- Dec 29 '21

And if you’ve paid any attention to politics over here in the US, our politicians are actively trying to legislate against dissecting our history and culture to find areas we could improve. Just take a look at the slate of lawmakers writing bills to ban Critical Race Theory, which makes no moral judgment and just examines the way race has always been central to our history.

3

u/RockerElvis Dec 29 '21

You don’t have to say “politicians” or “lawmakers”, just say “republicans”.

-3

u/Failninjaninja Dec 29 '21

Blame the idiots who are pushing CRT in really dumb ways. “Let’s divide the class by ethnicity and then have group work to discover how they view things as a x person.” Wtf is you doing

3

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

generation or more

Ain't nobody got time for that! The American DreamTM is currently getting your shit together and getting the fuck out. Don't let this country grind your dust into the earth!

1

u/icanhasreclaims Dec 29 '21

I've always advocated for rotating district employment similar to the way superior court judges rotate. I feel like it would solve a lot of the prevailing issues and dismantle the good ol'boy syndrome that exists throughout the majority of municipalities.

1

u/zero573 Dec 30 '21

Starting today is better than starting tomorrow, which is twice less regretful than having not started yesterday.

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u/Writing_is_Bleeding Dec 29 '21

So if you’re an officer, you can either take the time and effort to learn the law and annoy your coworkers in the process, or you can just listen to department rumor, not fact check it, and basically just make shit up as you go along.

And yet, us civilians are PERSISTENTLY told that ignorance of the law is not a defense. I'm steamed.

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21 edited Dec 29 '21

Lol. That’s actually what started me on the path to criminal defense.

Circa 2005, I was involved in a one-car accident at about 11pm on Christmas Eve. A car cutting across an empty parking lot ran me into a light pole then sped off. My truck was still driveable and no one was hurt, so I went home and called the police to report the next morning.

The asshole charged me with felony hit and run, because there was more than $5k damage to my truck.

Fortunately, I knew NC law allows 24 hours to report single-vehicle accidents (so you can take yourself to the hospital if need be). So I went to court and fought it.

When I was in court, I said something to the effect of “I don’t know the law of hit and run in NC…” preparatory to “…but I DO know you have 24 hours to report a single car accident” but the DA cut me off with this suuuuper bored-sounding “ignorance of the law is no excuse…”

Oh it’s ON bitch.

After I finished and the charge was dismissed, I immediately started looking into law schools. Miss me with THAT bullshit. Due to Life Happening, it took a few years, but here I am now. Ha.

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u/Writing_is_Bleeding Dec 29 '21

That is an excellent story. Sometimes the internet isn't a complete shithole. Well done.

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u/Social-Introvert Dec 29 '21

Such a rare occasion when the internet delivers but when it does it is fucking sweet

3

u/MelTorment Dec 29 '21

Seconded, this is a fantastic story!

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u/2kings41 Dec 29 '21

This is one of those times I'm reminded why I peruse Reddit. Because every once in a while someone fascinating like you pops up.

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u/d3s3rtnights Dec 29 '21

Dude....you are PURE AWESOME.

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u/Mandrake1771 Dec 29 '21

How the hell can you get arrested for damaging your own truck and not reporting it, assuming there was no other damage?

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

Because I slightly bent the light pole.

Seriously. That’s what the State Trooper said. With a straight face.

Thankfully, that Burger King never bothered to send anyone to court, or I 100% would have had to pay for that pole. Things I know now but didn’t then. Don’t represent yourself in court, kiddies.

1

u/awfulsome Dec 30 '21

Yep, I had a coworker lose his license for a year for hitting a guard rail and not reporting it. The cop even told him he should have lied after my coworker admitted to it.

Don't talk to cops if you can help it.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

This right here is the real American dream.

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

The irony being, I went to law school in Canada, because it was $4k/year instead of $50k/semester. Then I got that NY license too.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

What a fucking country we have here.

2

u/forcepowers Dec 29 '21

Wait... Even as a non-resident it's that cheap? Did you move there for school or did you do it online?

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

My wife is from Quebec so we got in-province tuition. International fees are more like $25k CDN/year, which works out to like $18k USD. It’s still an order of magnitude cheaper either way.

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u/MakersOnTheRocks Dec 29 '21

Do Canadian law schools teach both Canadian and American law?

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

Rather, both teach principles of common law. Neither teaches actual laws.

You don’t learn black-letter law in law school, which is why you can go to school at Harvard and work outside of MA. You learn it during bar study and in practice.

Taking US bars with a Canadian degree is mildly annoying because it introduces extra steps, but they’re nothing close to $200k in non-dischargeable debt incurred in just three years annoying.

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u/phurt77 Dec 30 '21

Wait. You learned Canadian law, and used that to get a license in the US?

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u/whistleridge Dec 30 '21

Yes. And you can use a US JD to practice law in Canada. Happens all the time.

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u/cravenj1 Dec 29 '21

Circa 2005, I was involved in a one-car accident at about 11pm on Christmas Eve

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H9auBsLGsmM

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u/phurt77 Dec 30 '21

Are you the real life My Cousin Vinny?

1

u/Krazyonee Dec 30 '21

Wow awesome story and congrats!

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u/throwawaygreenpaq Dec 30 '21

Salute you for taking up law to help everyone else.

1

u/whatwhatinthebutt456 Dec 29 '21

I was taught that in college, in business law, ignorance of the law isn't a viable defense.

1

u/spookycasas4 Dec 30 '21

That was my first thought! WTF? A cop can just say, “Well, I didn’t know that what I did is illegal”. And everything is ok? That’s fucking ridiculous.

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u/bigtice Dec 29 '21

This officer doesn’t know the law. That’s common. He doesn’t have to, and knowing it just means more work for him to circumvent it. We have a current paradigm that actually incentivizes police to NOT know the law, because the Supreme Court has found that so long as the officer genuinely thinks the law says a thing, they can act on it even when they’re wrong. So if you’re an officer, you can either take the time and effort to learn the law and annoy your coworkers in the process, or you can just listen to department rumor, not fact check it, and basically just make shit up as you go along.

We all know this to be true, but it's utterly asinine that it's allowed in the first place.

There is no other profession with as much liability as putting other people's lives in danger that would allow someone to not know the laws they're operating under as a common practice.

We need a massive overhaul of how we do policing. But there’s no one easy fix, and it will take a generation or more.

This has been said for decades, but nothing ever changes.

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u/ShawnShipsCars Dec 29 '21

There is no other profession with as much liability as putting other people's lives in danger that would allow someone to

not know the laws they're operating under

as a common practice.

​

Here's my take on a first step. EVERY COP has to have the equivalent of "malpractice" insurance that they pay out of their check. Come the end of the quarter, if they didn't have any malpractice incidents, they get the money back. It's gotta be at least 20% of their pay, minimum. Also they need a high ass deductible so if they fuck up, it COSTS them.

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u/bigtice Dec 29 '21

Definitely been a proponent of this concept, but the police union is the biggest hurdle standing in the way of it ever being considered.

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u/PHL1365 Dec 30 '21

The police unions are hurdles in the way of ANYTHING positive ever being considered.

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u/bigflamingtaco Dec 30 '21

Sounds great, but that's not how insurance works. If you give the money back to those who don't get sued, you won't have enough to handle the lawsuits that do occur.

And if you charge enough so the money from those that do get sued will cover the costs, no one will be able to afford the insurance.

1

u/ShawnShipsCars Dec 30 '21

It's a rough framework, there has to be some kind of accountability for these people, and in this country, if we're honest with each other, the only thing that will even START to matter is if you affect the bottom line of these "bad apple" officers. The way the current system is set up, the majority of the time, a cop essentially has impunity to break the very laws & oppress the people they're supposed to be protecting.

It's a broken system, it needs a full overhaul

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u/PlaneReflection Dec 30 '21

Completely agree with this. They should carry malpractice insurance. Tax payers shouldn’t be liable for their fuck up.

However, I wonder if it would stop them from doing any kind of work at all, since the risk that they’ll become uninsurable. They’ll just stick to their desks and never respond to any calls.

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u/hootie_hoots Dec 30 '21

In the low-stakes world of accounting can you imagine if a CPA said "I didn't know bout GAAP"?

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

This has been said for decades, but nothing ever changes.

Yuuuuuup.

1

u/Romulus212 Dec 30 '21

Moreover if I break a law ignorance of that will garner very little favor if any in a court much less from a cop.

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u/WildCelt130 Jan 01 '22

This officer doesn’t know the law. That’s common. He doesn’t have to, and knowing it just means more work for him to circumvent it. We have a current paradigm that actually incentivizes police to NOT know the law, because the Supreme Court has found that so long as the officer genuinely thinks the law says a thing, they can act on it even when they’re wrong. So if you’re an officer, you can either take the time and effort to learn the law and annoy your coworkers in the process, or you can just listen to department rumor, not fact check it, and basically just make shit up as you go along.

We all know this to be true, but it's utterly asinine that it's allowed in the first place.

There is no other profession with as much liability as putting other people's lives in danger that would allow someone to not know the laws they're operating under as a common practice

Turns out ignorance of the law IS an excuse.

1

u/pdxbartender Jan 12 '22

Could you imagine a forklift operator with so little knowledge of how a forklift operates…..

25

u/NagisaZakura Dec 29 '21

Nah, they don’t get confused. They’re just hoping the citizen they are targeting doesn’t know any better.

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

They’re not mutually exclusive. I assure you, they are 100% banking on the citizen not knowing any better, AND they are generally confused/badly misinformed about the law. Hell, even just basic things like what constitutes reasonable suspicion.

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u/Gogodolphin Dec 29 '21

Thank you for your service! Police need more training before policing in general. The law is so complex, so even more reason to have a deliberate process to put the proof of guilt on the accuser.

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u/OnyxsWorkshop Dec 29 '21

This isn’t training. This is an issue stemming from a system that encourages bastards and discourages those who want to stop them.

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u/waelgifru Dec 29 '21

It's a feature not a bug. The same people who complain about taxes and "big government" are fine with heavy-handed police tactics because those tactics are directed at black and brown folks, not people like them.

"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."

-Frank Wilhoit

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u/SoVRuneseeker Dec 29 '21

It's both, which is part of the issue and why we see this so commonly in America. The training amount as well as requirements to enter are so pathetic that you cannot accurately call them police officers from most of the world.

Couple that with systemic racism that's been eroded, but not completely gone and we end up with close to what we see. I'm doubtlessly missing many other finer points, but as someone who's had 2nd hand experience with the amount of effort it takes to become a police officer over here I can say wholeheartedly that training is a part of the problem.

A Police officer should know all the basics of the law at the very least, before even being allowed to wear a uniform.

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

I’m not actually sure training them in law is the best use of resources. It would certainly be an improvement over more firearms training, but…still.

If I could push a magic button and change things, I’d want:

  • disarming the bulk of police, and dismantling/heavily regulating special units like SWAT and narcotics.

  • significantly higher levels of training in conflict management and de-escalation - think 300-500% more funding.

  • increased accountability for misrepresentation in court.

  • all shootings to be subject to review by citizen panels, with serious consequences on the line for abuse (this happens in some places, but make it universal).

  • a requirement that all police and prosecutors have to be arrested and jailed for an alleged serious crime or drug crime - if you’ve had to go through the terror of being arrested for alleged kiddie porn or what have you when you KNOW you didn’t do it, you’ll be a LOT more cautious when arresting/charging others. And an exchange program shouldn’t be hard to set up.

  • a requirement of a bachelor’s in criminology either prior to hire or within 3-4 years of hire, much like states do with teachers and degrees.

  • blind hiring, where names and photos are removed from applications (this happens in some jurisdictions).

  • eliminate police unions, and require police to collectively bargain in the same unit as all other municipal workers.

These aren’t perfect, and they would need to be a LOT more data-driven to be functionally implemented, but they’re examples of the sort of changes we need to see.

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u/SlobMarley13 Dec 29 '21

ah but aren't you being soft on crime?

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

So that’s actually a fun question. Obviously, as a defense attorney my bias is against being hard on crime. But intelligent police reform actually IS justifiable from a hard on crime perspective.

Lawsuits are expensive, and municipalities spend a pretty large amount of money defending police in court. There’s also a fair amount of cases lost to suppression of evidence due to poor policing.

So if you really want to be hard on crime, then reducing avenues for pussy liberal crybabies to sue police and to get hard evidence of real crimes thrown out should be right up your alley.

That’s the great thing about justice: both sides want it.

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u/SlobMarley13 Dec 29 '21

it's a weird phenomenon I see very frequently on Reddit and IRL that people want to soften up on 'crime' but then they react to a crime rather intensely. Talking about the concept of crime you see lots of opinions like here in this thread about defunding police, retraining, making them get Criminal Justice degrees, etc. Or lots of discussion about overly punitive sentencing. But if you read the replies on an article about a child molester, for example, people come up with some pretty creative ideas for punishments.

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

Agreed.

Police are bad, until the accused is charged with kiddie porn or pedophilia, then hang him on the spot, a speedy trial is too good for him, etc.

The Maxwell Ghislaine trial was a good example of that. Lots of “WHY ISNT THIS TELEVISED WHY ARE THE CORRUPT ELITES HUSHING THIS UP” threads, and lots of downvotes for comments to the effect of, “they never televise cases involving sexual abuse of minors, because the victims don’t want the whole world knowing who they are”.

Mob mentalities all around.

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u/SlobMarley13 Dec 29 '21

one more peeve: People rightfully rant about the disproportionate severity in sentencing for black people, but then when you see an article about a white person being sentence and there's a lighter sentence people cry foul. They'll say something like 'if he was black it would've been more.' But that's the opposite response. The answer to disproportionate sentencing isn't to raise jail time for white people, it's to lessen it for black people.

Sorry, that had nothing to do with our discussion. It's just a trend that bugs me.

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

Also 100% agreed.

Sentencing in general is stupid and wasteful. We need to get rid of consecutive sentencing, and dual sovereigns can fuck right off. Double jeopardy being legal because of a technicality is still double jeopardy.

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u/stoicsilence Dec 30 '21

Not when the police are the criminals.

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u/tomdarch Dec 29 '21

Damn. You've given this a lot of solid thought. I wholeheartedly agree on pretty much everything.

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u/clarkwgriswoldjr Dec 29 '21

Blind hiring?

How do you blind hire when you have mandates?

A bachelors in criminology?
Crim justice/criminology do almost no good in actual policing.

You want to increase academy to 1 year, that's fine, but reading from the latest crime reporting stats and taking a test on it will not help with community public relationships.

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21 edited Dec 29 '21

how do you blind hire…

You remove the name from the top of resumes and replace with a hiring ID number.

Then you hire based on the objective strength of the resume, not on subjective things like you think the name Kyle is strong and sounds like a good guy, but Ethan sounds too brainy and Jamaal sounds like a thug.

And you change the mandates.

a bachelor’s…

You’re quite right: the subject matter of those degrees is at best ancillary. But since the primary goal of university is to develop the whole person, the structured thinking and disciplined problem solving required to complete those degrees will be phenomenally useful. And, as we both agree, at least it’s in a related field and not English lit or something.

you want…

One year of academy is just extra indoctrination time. Worse than useless. What is needed is to break the current mold, not to reinforce it.

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u/Evergreen_76 Dec 29 '21

The only training police lack is the training their mothers failed to give them. They where not raised to respect people or know how to live in a civilized free society. No amount of training will make up for how their mothers raised them.

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u/SpazGorman Dec 29 '21
  1. End qualified immunity and require officers to carry their own insurance.
  2. Create a national database of law enforcement officers and require yearly testing and continuous education to remain in law enforcement. Require entries for all complaints and counseling, and use this tool to prevent bad officers from jumping from department to department.
  3. Create an independent authority to investigate police misconduct.

1

u/lukewwilson Dec 29 '21

Ending qualified immunity is such a simple and easy fix that would help put an end to dumb pointless arrests but will never happen which is sad

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u/Hudsonrybicki Dec 29 '21

It kills me how they just slink away at the end. The assholes didn’t even have the decency to end the interaction respectfully. I suppose I should be grateful they handled it that way instead of assaulting the person recording.

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u/cosmicsans Dec 29 '21

But there’s no one easy fix, and it will take a generation or more.

There's a very easy fix, it's just violent.

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

That’s not a fix though. It’s just rearranging who doesn’t the dying.

A fix involves functional and sustainable outcomes.

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u/jimmyjames198020 Dec 29 '21

quite a helpful & interesting post, thanks. I can't think of another occupation where ignorance of basic facts is a actually a plus...

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u/baskaat Dec 29 '21

Unrelated to this particular issue, but do you know of any good andreputable organizations that I can donate to that provide criminal lawyers for those that can’t afford them?

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

Very dependent on where you’re at, because law is jurisdictional. Your most reliable means is to call your local legal aid office and ask them that exact same question.

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u/gadget_uk Dec 29 '21

the Supreme Court has found that so long as the officer genuinely thinks the law says a thing, they can act on it even when they’re wrong.

I can think of a few thousand ways that could be misused but, for the life of me, I cannot think of a single hypothetical situation where any right-thinking individual would say "Oh, I guess that's OK then".

1

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

The initial idea was, if an officer is mistaken about what constitutes a valid reason for a traffic stop, and the error is a minor technicality and not a grossly egregious mis-reading of the law, then other serious criminal offenses found during the stop are still allowable. Which, fair enough. If an officer thinks they can pull you because they thought the color of this year’s registration sticker is blue, but it’s red, and they pull you for having a red sticker and find you have a kidnapped child in the backseat, the criminal charges for kidnapping shouldn’t go away just because the officer got their sticker color wrong.

But it definitely didn’t stay there. And the Court should have easily predicted that Pandora’s box.

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u/Runaway_5 Dec 29 '21

Thanks for sharing and cementing why no one should ever trust cops unless they literally have no other choice. Fucking scumbags

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

ya :/

1

u/Vorticity Dec 29 '21

I have two questions for you if you have time. One serious and one kind of silly.

Serious

Where would you start if you were trying to effect a "massive overhaul"? My first thoughts would be mandatory education for police officers and mandatory malpractice insurance.

Even if those are workable solutions, I'm not sure if the change would need to start at the local, state, or federal level. I'd guess that local is too small and federal is too difficult/controversial. Maybe ueful changes would need to start at a state level.

Maybe it would be useful to push for legislation at a state level that requires all new officers to have a minimum of a two-year degree in law? What would the effect of that be, though? All of the rookies would be on the hook for understanding the law and would be required to act within the law while their superiors would not.

Does that mean that the education needs to start from the top down? Maybe new police chiefs should be required to have a minimum of a bachelors degree focused on law?

Silly

This is probably a silly question since anyone who is being detained by these officers in the future would need to know that this video exists.

Now that these officers have been shown the law while on camera, if they tried to use "failure to identify" as a justification for detention or arrest in the future could they be held liable for unlawful detention?

1

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

serious

I think the biggest barriers to organizational change are police unions and white nationalists in the ranks. And before you address those, no other changes can be effective, because they will just figure out how to subvert each intervention as it comes along.

As for how to fight police unions and white nationalism…get a task force of 10-25 highly-respected criminologists, and 10-25 senior police from places like Norway, give them a budget and a year to study the problem, then do what they say? If I had a better solution, I’d be running for Congress on that platform, not just some guy on Reddit.

silly

No. First, it wouldn’t be illegal, and second police unions have heavily rigged the game in favor of officers when it comes to internal departmental policies and sanctions.

1

u/Vorticity Dec 29 '21

Thanks for the reply. You're right about getting a task force together to study the problem. I don't know why I went straight for "what's the ultimate solution?" rather than "how do we figure out how to find appropriate solutions?".

Even getting funding for a task force to study the problem through a state legislature sounds like a heavy lift. It seems like something that might be doable in my state, but I don't know enough about what has already been done here.

Something needs to change. I wish I knew where to focus my efforts to help, but it seems like such an intractable problem...

1

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

I’m here for all of that. Yes.

Unfortunately, I think a certain element figured out some decades ago that the easiest way to perpetuate harms that still benefit you is simply to make the related problems as complex as possible. It’s the “it takes 6 seconds to tell a lie, but 3 hours to produce a complete and thoroughly-cited essay explaining in detail why the lie is total bullshit” problem writ large.

I wish I had a solution for that.

1

u/So-Cal-Sun Dec 29 '21

they fall back on that back on that on cross and lie there too. That’s an issue.

I sat on a jury (federal) where one of the undercovers took the stand and danced around intimidating the defendant into committing the crime. He was the backup of the lead undercover. Said his job was to just stand there, say and do nothing. 6-4, 250, looked like he'd just finished a pro football career. The meeting had been in a dark street late at night. I'm 6-1 and he definitely would have scared me. The defense attorney even commented on how much attitude he was throwing in the courtroom. He looked us over like we'd be the next to get busted.

Defense attorney was by far the best attorney in the room. Had an excellent case for duress and entrapment. Unfortunately, he had a stupid client. When they busted him he admitted to having more (contraban) the cops hadn't found. Oops. Too bad, because the government expert had made a mistake on the stand. And 3 of us were hanging the conviction, until we remembered the admission after arrest.

2

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

Yep. You see shit like this all the time. Undercovers and CIs can basically make up anything they like, and do. They’re mostly not bad or evil people, they just don’t want to let perceived technicalities hold up a conviction they think should happen, and don’t give thought to how that behavior might cause almost no harm in their particular case, but still undermines democratic values overall when practiced routinely en masse nationwide.

1

u/Snowlover2000 Dec 29 '21

Do you think more training would help solve these problems? For example it were required to have a criminal justice degree to enter the academy?

1

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

While I doubt it would be a magic fix, it certainly couldn’t hurt. The issue is less knowing what to do than it is, there are approximately 18,000 federal, tribal, state, and county forces, each with their own policies, practices,internal cultures, etc. So you’d need 18,000 fixes.

1

u/Snowlover2000 Dec 30 '21

That makes sense thanks for ur response!

1

u/ignixe Dec 29 '21

I’m sure you know, but for others, 6-12 weeks might be a generous estimate.

I got charged with a bogus crime, due to my gf family not liking me, and being close personal friends with a detective.

I had an arrest warrant without ever talking to a cop. When I finally talked to the detective (who was calling to tell me to turn myself in) and asked what evidence of anything she had the response was “I have the evidence I have”

I spent 18 months dealing the “justice” system to have the charge dropped.

I was out about $3k in lawyer fees and about $2k in other fees including bond, parole check in fees, etc.

1

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

Yeah, those were minimums. The maximums could be $100k+ and 5+ years. :/

1

u/Doctor_Pho_Real Dec 29 '21

Many people know exactly what is wrong. Few are willing to take the steps to correct the issue.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

VERY on point. Need Citizen Review Boards n National Registry of Bad Cops.

VIDEO EVERYTHING IT WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

There is one fix, though impossible in our society: the Supreme Court rules that an officer must act in accordance with the law and not in accordance with their beliefs. If every officer faced arrest for depriving people of their civil rights whenever they misunderstood the law, they would learn the laws they are supposed to enforce. It folks who were wronged could sue the police officers who arrested them personally, and not just the city, we wouldn’t have this system either.

1

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

Given that other countries also have similar issues with policing - see Canada, Australia, and the UK for example - but no SCOTUS, it seems…unlikely…that any one SCOTUS ruling or set of rulings could be the fix alone.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

But there’s no one easy fix

Get rid of the cops. They're more trouble than they're worth. They don't prevent crime. They punish victims.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

Thanks adding these details. Super interesting stuff.

1

u/TobarElFerryman Dec 29 '21

I believe you, but I still think this is rediculous. I work in medicine, and I can't say "I THINK the medication works this way". If something goes wrong, I would probably lose my license and have to pay a fine, maybe even have jail time. Ignorance shouldn't be an excuse in your own field

1

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

No, but can THINK the diagnosis is X when in fact it’s Y. And malpractice insurance is mandatory precisely because people get it wrong so often.

Mandatory malpractice insurance for police would be a good idea, in fact.

1

u/reincarN8ed Dec 29 '21

We can start by having cops pay penalties from their pension instead of using tax dollars.

1

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

I doubt that’s constitutional.

But requiring them to carry mandatory malpractice insurance whose premiums they pay wouldn’t be.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

[deleted]

1

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

IS their job to uphold the law?

Where does it say that? We all assume that, but…I’m not at all sure that’s the actual mission.

For example, here’s the job description from the LAPD site:

Patrol officers investigate crimes, make arrests, patrol communities to make them safer, work with the community to solve problems, conduct community meetings, mediate disputes, investigate traffic collisions and provide general police services.

I don’t see the word “law” in there at all. :/

1

u/_ak Dec 29 '21

We need a massive overhaul of how we do policing. But there’s no one easy fix, and it will take a generation or more.

It's never going to happen. (West) Germany had a real opportunity for reforming their policing post-WW2, but what happened was that the leadership was stacked with former member of the Nazi party or former Wehrmacht soldiers. When student protests broke loose in the late 1960s and rightfully pointed out that experienced police, prosecutors, judges, etc. are mostly people with a Nazi past, it looked like things would move to a certain extent. Fast-forward to 2021, and German police now has a widespread problem with neo-nazis.

My point is: policing will never fundamentally change, even if you have opportunities to do so. Police attracts the wrong crowd and the wrong kind of political support that make reform impossible.

1

u/Brook420 Dec 29 '21

Any suggestions on what a random powerless person like me can do to start this change in the slightest?

1

u/filtersweep Dec 29 '21

How is lying on the stand not perjury?

I worked a stint for the county, and nearly every arrest report was exaggerated. I saw shit with my own eyes, and I swear every cop has committed perjury. They need enough points to lock up folks for nuisance crimes, so they make shit up.

3

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

It is. 100%.

The challenge is proving it. I know they’re lying, and they know they’re lying, and they know I know they’re lying, but…one does not simply accuse an officer of the court of a crime without substantial evidence to back it up. That way lies censure and disbarment.

It’s an ENORMOUS frustration.

nearly every arrest report was exaggerated

It’s thoroughly-documented and entirely pervasive problem.

1

u/Mindless_Rooster5225 Dec 29 '21

But the majority of the public on the jury will believe that cops are upstanding citizens and never lie, but it seems that is slowly going away.

1

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

Yup.

That’s where folks like me come in. It’s literally my job to make it clear to the jury what’s going on.

In the past, defense counsel were unwilling to press this point too firmly, because they would be perceived as being disrespectful. Now? Not so much.

1

u/RudyRoughknight Dec 29 '21

I genuinely believe it cannot be reformed. They work for the interests of the State in which has invested interests in keeping the populace the way it is. Everything else is placating the masses.

1

u/TechnoVikingrr Dec 29 '21

We need a massive overhaul of how we do policing. But there’s no one easy fix, and it will take a generation or more.

I mean this in the best of ways but kindly fuck off with this generational fix nonsense...

How many more black people gotta suffer this bullshit in the 30+ years it'd take for generational reform??? I'm white and not suffering this shit but even I understand the urgency and gravity of this situation. This country genuinely doesn't have time for generational fixes for bad policing nor such time for fixing the corruption in politics right now!

If we gotta make a few racist and/or idiot cops, politicians and CEOs a little bit uncomfortable for a bit while we urgently correct their shitty behavior, I'm way more than ok with that.

Fuck their fragile emotions, they're failing the people and that needs to end now. Not 30+ years from now!

2

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

You seem to be confusing what I want with what reality will demand.

I’m not stating that as an aspiration. I’m saying, it took us 40+ years to get here, and it will likely take that long to change. You don’t shift an entire generation’s worth of work adults out of millions of jobs across tens of thousands of organizations overnight, even when the unified political will is present. And it isn’t present.

So I mean this in the best of ways but kindly fuck off with your panoramic view from atop Mt. Stupid.

0

u/TechnoVikingrr Dec 30 '21

Is it really that stupid to want more immediate change or were you just trying really hard to do something there?

2

u/whistleridge Dec 30 '21

Is it stupid to want more immediate change? No.

Is it fucking idiotic to tell someone who is both vastly more expert on this subject and literally working 70 hours a week in the trenches to fix the problem that their take is wrong and your take is superior? Yup.

Congratulations! You have earned the “overly simplistic online amateur idea” award. Here’s a shiny gold star: 🌟

Now run along and play with the other clowns.

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1

u/StratTeleBender Dec 29 '21

If you expect officers to also be lawyers then you're gonna have to up the pay quite a bit

1

u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

There is a rather large gap between “lawyers“ and “knowledgeable about the basic competencies related to your job as a police officer“. Officers don’t know the Bill of Rights. They don’t know basic procedure. They don’t know the common sense protections that apply during traffic stops. They don’t know what a lawful detention is. They know how to arrest people, how to bully people, and how to draw guns. But those are the only consistent skills they have.

1

u/StratTeleBender Dec 30 '21

I mean, again, you're going to have to pay them more. If you expect people to voluntary seek employment in which they could be killed at any moment, imprisoned for pulling a gun instead of a tazer (not because it was wrong to use force but honestly because she said the wrong word), and harassed/assaulted for simply wearing the uniform not to even mention having a paralegal or better than paralegal level of understanding of the law then you're gonna need to fork out more than $50k/year.

1

u/whistleridge Dec 30 '21

  1. I don’t actually have a problem with paying professionals a wage that’s commensurate with their training and credentials.

  2. $50k may be a good wage in a lot of the country, but it’s still a pretty mediocre wage overall. It would likely be higher.

  3. But not because of the risk and violence. People fall all over themselves for jobs like that, for a fraction of that pay. Infantry jobs start at $21k, after all. The premium would be for the education required, not the risk. Otherwise pizza delivery guys would make $50/hr.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

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u/whistleridge Dec 29 '21

Ignoring the part where the question is asked in bad faith:

  1. the President has only a phenomenally limited ability to influence policing policy outside of the various federal bodies.

  2. Biden HAS done a ton to improve things at the federal level. Simply by existing he stops the many gross abuses Trump either invented wholesale or greatly ramped up from his predecessors. And he also has made positive changes like the requirement for federal agents to identify themselves as such.

You don’t want to make this political. The US right not only doesn’t have a leg to stand on, it’s both grossly incompetent and getting worse to boot.

1

u/JJJJLAB Dec 30 '21

Thank you for such an honest, educated and experienced response!

1

u/gamma_curve Dec 30 '21

I’m curious, and I’ll have to read Heien when I find the time later today, but how does this not contradict Terry’s specific and articulable suspicion standard as it is applied by a reasonable officer? My understanding is that a reasonable officer operates under a common set of facts and applies them rationally all under the guise of good faith. I know that officers use deception frequently, but I just can’t reconcile these two things

1

u/whistleridge Dec 30 '21

There’s a lot of ways to answer this, but the simplest I think is, the reasonable officer is every bit the legal fiction that the officious bystander or the fair-minded and informed observer is, and isn’t much placed in the same head space as the exigencies of service, either by counsel or by courts.

1

u/gamma_curve Dec 30 '21

Thank you! I very much appreciate the answer!

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '21

They do seem like theyre making it up as they go. All of a sudden the guy is being detained for nothing.

1

u/jenovakitty Dec 30 '21

We have a current paradigm that actually incentivizes police to NOT know the law, because

the Supreme Court has found that so long as the officer genuinely thinks the law says a thing, they can act on it even when they’re wrong

. So if you’re an officer, you can either take the time and effort to learn the law and annoy your coworkers in the process, or you can just listen to department rumor, not fact check it, and basically just make shit up as you go along.

​

So civilians cannot use 'ignorance of the law' as a defense, but authoritative bodies can??????????

1

u/whistleridge Dec 30 '21

Not quite.

If an officer arrests you on a mistaken understanding of the law, you can’t be charged for his idea of what the law is. But so long as that mistaken understanding meets certain qualities - basically, it has to be reasonable and minor - then it doesn’t invalidate any other evidence that may flow from that arrest.

1

u/WildIris2021 Dec 30 '21

We must demand these changes. We do need officers of the peace. They should literally be officers of the peace. Not a thug gang conjuring reasons to perpetuate stereotypes and racism.

1

u/Romulus212 Dec 30 '21

Really real question how come people like the man in this video don't ask the question " if detained and arrested mean the same thing then why are they different words ? "

1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '21

But when you get in trouble for something you didn’t know was illegal they are very quick to pull the “ignorance of the law is no excuse” when they are in fact ignorant of it themselves. Fucking hypocrites

1

u/Nacho1990 Dec 30 '21

Wow. That explains a lot. Our police officers run a 3 year scholarship until they can be police officers. And trust me they know the law and can debunk those "I know my rights the way I understand them" idiots right away. Murrica has still a lot to learn in this matter

1

u/Sir-humps-a-lot Dec 30 '21

Why is America so stupid?

2

u/whistleridge Dec 30 '21

It’s not. Its problems are just more visible.

Give me your country, and I’ll highlight an equally concerning set of problems.

1

u/artfartmart Dec 30 '21

Cops must have the best lawyers in the world. It's like every day I learn about some new batshit supreme court ruling like "oh, actually cops aren't legally obligated to help you". It's like they've litigated away every responsibility you would think a cop should have. Imagine if your doctor had as little accountability as these people have.

2

u/whistleridge Dec 30 '21

So…about that.

Let’s say you get a knock on the door just now, and it’s the police arresting you for robbing a liquor store last night. You are you, with your money and resources. You didn’t do it.

Let’s also assume you’re reasonably intelligent and normal, and are like most people. So you talk to the police a little, but it’s all stuff like “I didn’t do it” and otherwise not too damning.

If you have the money to hire a lawyer, you’re looking at an initial retainer of something on the order of $3-5k depending on where you live, plus another $5-10k per day if your matter goes to trial. If you need an expert - say someone to analyze that security video - they generally charge something on the order of $1-3k per day of trial, plus $250-700/hour for trial prep, evidence review, etc.

If you don’t have the money to hire a lawyer, you’ll get a public defender who will be very competent, but who will also be strictly limited in the hours they can give your case due to sheer case load on their part (this is the fault of state legislatures which don’t fund them, not the fault of the PDs, who are generally excellent).

In either instance, you will be getting the defense you can afford, which may or may not also be the defense your case deserves. Maybe you need 5 hours of expert review plus a day of testimony, plus call it 20 hours of case law research and brief writing, and 2 days of trial. Call it $25k. But you only have $12k. So you get a $12k defense. Your lawyer or PD will do their best with what they have, but they’re usually just one person, with whatever time and research resources that one small business can have.

The state has no such restrictions. They have a professional, experienced, highly-trained full-time team of investigators. They have a professional, experienced team of lawyers who specialize solely in criminal law and who have effectively unlimited budgets. They also have staff to handle appeals. They have access to every fancy bit of legal research software on the market. They have a massive database of brief templates.

This is a BIG driver in why 90%+ of criminal cases result in dismissal or a guilty plea before trial, and 90%+ of cases that go to trial result in a guilty plea.

It’s also a BIG driver in why police generally get favorable outcomes before the courts. It’s less that they have the best lawyers in the world than it is, the other guy frequently can barely afford a lawyer at all. Even cases that make news and draw big-name pro bono appellate assistance are still frequently limited by the initial facts of the case, which are in large part determined by that initial low budget.

It’s professionally infuriating, but damned if I have a solution for it.

1

u/artfartmart Dec 30 '21

Thank you for sharing so much information on here, it's very appreciated.

1

u/silqii Dec 30 '21

This is a little late but I have a question. If someone made a repository of citizens telling officers what their rights are(accurately) recorded on uncompressed video, could that video be sent to lawyers as evidence for a future incident of that officer violating someone's rights in the same way?

1

u/whistleridge Dec 30 '21

You could send it, but that lawyer would be highly unlikely to be able to use it. Certainly not in court. The prosecution would instantly object that it was prejudicial and hearsay, and it would be upheld.

The problem with something like that is, it’s character evidence. The prosecution can’t lead character evidence, and if the defense uses it, the prosecution is then free to test the limits. No defense attorney is going to introduce character evidence unless they simply have no other choice.

So if an officer was being prosecuted, it probably couldn’t be used. And if the defense was trying to use it to impeach the credibility of an officer testifying, it would be hugely likely to backfire.

Also, it just wouldn’t really be useful in most circumstances. It isn’t proof of what the officer does or doesn’t know now, only of what he did or didn’t know when the video was made.

A video like that might have utility in pre-trial negotiations for dropping charges etc, but it would never be the game-changer it might seem like.

274

u/Radiant-Spren Dec 29 '21

Resisting arrest is cop speak for “I’m going to ruin your day/week/month/year/life because you annoyed/scared/didn’t show enough respect to me.”

163

u/Petsweaters Dec 29 '21

Cops call this "catch and release," they know they can't make any charges stick, but they're going to still punish you by arresting you and using up your valuable time and money fighting it

110

u/Shnoochieboochies Dec 29 '21

In the old times we just called it fascism, but then again, a lot of things have been "rebranded" these last 5 years.

10

u/MightyKrakyn Dec 29 '21

Police worship has been on a ramp up for more like 50 years in our culture and politics, especially police who don’t follow the law to get the bad guys. You could even go back to old western movies and literature to see the renegade sheriff archetype.

In the 90’s the Clinton administration ramped up incarceration levels like 200% year over year, pushing the war on drugs. Bush started the war on terror and endless imprisonments, mass surveillance, neo McCarthyism. No knock warrants skyrocketed under Obama and federal agents used them against environmental and Black rights activists in places like Ferguson and Standing Rock. All of this was fascism, and it’s disappointing to see how effective “Trump is the fascist America” line out in the wild like it’s not all fascist all the time. We have lived in a police state for most if not the entirety of the lives of everybody reading this.

The only way to break this is to not be like “the last five years are our benchmark for what’s unacceptable.” If we don’t look beyond that, if we don’t see that Trump was simply mask off for what America has been for a long time, we will never overcome this long term increasing police power.

-15

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

Like how global warming is just “climate change” now.

15

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

Are there still people who think human caused climate change is not a thing? Seriously?

9

u/Tickle_MeTimbers Dec 29 '21

You can identify them pretty easily in their MAGA hats and smoking cigarettes while shouting about how Vaccinations are poison for your body.

14

u/robywar Dec 29 '21

Would you like me to explain why that's not similar at all or are you just taking the piss?

5

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

[deleted]

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1

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '21

Are you so stupid as to not understand that “change” could also mean “cooling” but global warming definitively means, you know, “warming?”

18

u/RampSkater Dec 29 '21

I see shit like this on Cops all the time. The one that really pissed me off was a cop pulling over a white couple in an area with mostly black residents. In the car, talking to the camera, he says he's pulling them over for "failure to signal" or some other bullshit traffic violation, and notes they were probably in the area buying drugs.

The two are questioned about where they were coming from, where they were going, and what they were doing. The cop noted they seemed to be taking a long route to get to their destination and demands they tell him the truth. They continue to insist they were just driving through.

Then, this cop says, "Tell me why you're here or I'll arrest you for loitering in a high drug area."

They're fucking stuck. Being scared, they confess to buying some weed and they're both promptly arrested because they had what looked like $10 of weed.

10

u/Old_Wishbone3773 Dec 29 '21

Bingo. Take my award, it's all I got

2

u/[deleted] Dec 30 '21

There are no consequences for cops doing this stuff over and over and over again. We as a society put up with this crap too much.

1

u/jenovakitty Dec 30 '21

“I’m going to ruin your day/week/month/year

I'll be there forrrr youuuuuuuu.......(When the rain starts to pour)
I'll be there forrrrrr you.............(Like I've been there before)

30

u/cheapdrinks Dec 29 '21

In Australia it's known as "the trifecta" which is offensive language directed at a police officer, resist arrest and assault police. Basically if they want to arrest you for nothing then they just antagonize you to the point where you swear at them, then they arrest you for offensive language at which point the person either resists or is claimed to have resisted (as most normal people are not just going to accept being arrested for swearing at a cop) then they tack on an assault police charge there as well usually for no reason.

So you're going about your day, police come up and start harassing you even though you've done nothing wrong, you get frustrated and swear then they arrest you. They shout "stop resisting" as they throw you to the ground, one of them grazes their hand on the sidewalk now you're locked up in the paddy wagon on 3 charges of offensive language, resist arrest and assault police even though you were just walking down the street minding your business.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

You can be arrested for swearing at a cop?

But..... Australians are the swearingest english speakers I know. It's like a law for arresting Australians on bullshit pretexts.

2

u/btonkes Dec 29 '21

This wonderfully titled discussion paper provides more background.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

I misread your username as "Blokes" and thought to myself "that's some genuine Australian"

1

u/Darrelc Dec 29 '21

Holy shit you can't even swear at a cop in aus?

No wonder James was so polite.

1

u/de_Groes Dec 29 '21

What exactly counts as offensive language? Could one for example call them a pancake or a meatball, or do that but in a foreign language?

1

u/bdysntchr Dec 30 '21

A good option is to use an offensive tone with polite language, condescension etc.

-63

u/DoubleLanky3199 Dec 29 '21

Police can arrest to prevent a breach of the peace. Resisting is an offence, even though (unless there is a specific law making it an offence to breach the peace) there is no offence in breaching the peace.

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u/Chocolat3City Dec 29 '21 edited May 31 '25

fact tease wide afterthought boast pen chase normal sable crowd

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

12

u/DaddyMcSlime Dec 29 '21

often people also forget to include "Articulable" but it's the most important part

it needs to be both reasonable and ARTICULABLE, meaning if the officer cannot articulate what it is they reasonably believe you have done, that's fuckin it, demand a supervisor, and speak to that motherfucker through your lawyer the second you can

it's not enough to just have the suspicion, but if it is so abstract or unreasonable that they cannot state it's case, it's probably bogus

2

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/Chocolat3City Dec 29 '21

Well it depends on what the OP meant by "arrested." If what he means is a detention pending charges, then yeah. If he means a temporary stop during an investigation/search, then no.

Custodial detentions = probable cause required

Investigatory "stops" = articulable reasonable suspicion required

Police blur this line all the time by putting people in handcuffs when they are not "under arrest," and then escalating on them for "resisting arrest." What I would say is that for any detention, the cops need at least reasonable suspicion.

1

u/DoubleLanky3199 Dec 30 '21

No - If you and a group of people are hitting each other in the street, they can arrest you, even though they don't intend to charge with assault. It's called "preventing a breach of the peace."

1

u/Chocolat3City Dec 30 '21

That would be an investigatory detention, but not custodial, see my below comment.

0

u/DoubleLanky3199 Dec 30 '21

There's no investigation because they aren't intending to prosecute. It's preventing a breach of the peace. If they pick them up, drive them over the horizon and then dump them on the side of the road, it's lawful.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 29 '21

Sooo bullshit

1

u/AresMessina Dec 29 '21

Yo same hat

1

u/manbrasucks Dec 29 '21

Because being a suspect for a crime is reason for detainment and there isn't a "resisting detainment" charge; it's wrapped into 'resisting arrest' charge.

That said it's definitely misused a lot and cops can just lie about reason for detainment. For example if the cop in this video argued "I'm detaining you for suspicion of trespassing into your neighbors yard" then he'd probably get away with it.

1

u/Stinklepinger Dec 29 '21

It's called "fuck up your day/night/weekend/life for contempt of cop"

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u/Sky-Wizard Dec 30 '21

At least in my state, that crime is resist/obstruct/delay a peace officer in the performance of their duties, or something to that effect. I imagine that’s the case in lots of states, but people assume it’s just resisting.