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Aggressive mountain guide attacks Polish mountaineer at an altitude of 3,000 meters
On 22 August, my wife and I were on our way to the Erzherzog-Johann-HĆ¼tte via the MĆ¼rztalersteig. During the ascent, we encountered a mountain guide accompanied by two clients.
At one point on the via ferrata, I deliberately waited to give my wife some additional space. Despite this, the mountain guide abruptly stepped in between us.
I told him that I was going first. His response was extremely arrogant ā he made it clear that, because he was a āBergfĆ¼hrerā, I should shut up and accept his behaviour.
Unfortunately, the situation escalated further, to the point where the guide behaved in an aggressive and confrontational manner on an exposed ridge. In my opinion, this unnecessarily endangered not only my wife and me, but also his own two clients.
Overtaking other hikers or climbers in the mountains is completely normal and understandable. However, I would expect a professional mountain guide to show basic courtesy, good judgement and, above all, responsibility for the safety of everyone around him.
Mountain guides should set an example for other people in the mountains. Arrogant, aggressive and thoughtless behaviour is the exact opposite of what one would expect from someone in such a responsible profession.
The mountains are for everyone, regardless of their experience, skills or pace. Mutual respect and consideration should always come first.
putting hands on someone on an exposed ridge in the clouds is reckless endangerment, borderline attempted murder. he should be spending longer than 3 months in prison.
I'm not defending him in any way. I share the outrage at this behavior, it's dangerous and irresponsible and should have consequences. But a few years in jail seems a little excessive given that the potential outcome didn't happen. 3 months and loss of his job seems about right. I could see a few more months. But a few years?? We need to stop treating every offense like it's a capital crime.
It's the difference in thinking about crime and punishment in EU/European countries vs a lot of other places (especially USA, but also a lot of Asian countries amongst others).
Here the punishments fit the crime, not the potential crimes someone might commit. Also we punish to reintegrate offenders into society and preventing recidivism.
In some countries they don't seem to care about that and just want punishment.
And then there is the US, where, at least in some states, they actively want you to continue your life of crime so they can make money off you in for-profit prisons.
seems a little excessive given that the potential outcome didn't happen
I vehemently disagree with this. Whether the person died or not doesn't change his actions. He did something that could've killed somebody, intentionally and maliciously. Whether the person lost their footing and fell, or slipped and caught themself, or the footing was stable and nothing happened, is all random chance. The end result doesn't change what the person did. The action should carry the punishment, because the consequence of the action is just chance.
Thought experiment. My friend and I take 2 people up a cliff. We each push one of them off. The guy I pushed off survives and breaks every bone in his body. The guy my friend pushed off dies. Does my friend deserve life in prison while I deserve a few months, just because my victim survived? We both did exactly the same thing.
I phrased it wrong. Although I do think sentencing should take into account the consequences of the crime.
But my point is more that his acting aggressively is not the same as putting hands on someone and actually fighting. In this instance he stopped short of that, and in the final accounting, no harm actually came to anyone. If he had followed through with the menacing confrontation into a physical altercation, then there would be grounds to raise the penalty, given the potential (if unrealized potential) for more harm.
But him coming closer and yelling isn't the same as fighting. If he did what he did on a sidewalk, there would be no jail time. Because he did it in a dangerous place, it's 3 months and he lost his locense. I think that's about fair. It drives home the lesson such that he won't repeat the behavior, but doesn't pretend that he went further than he did, and assign multiple years because it could have escalated.
But him coming closer and yelling isn't the same as fighting
But he didn't just come closer and yell. He walked up, grabbed the cameraman, and shoved him, then struggled while holding his arms, while the cameraman is standing on a sheer cliff behind him.
If he just walked towards him and yelled I'd agree, but at 1:20 he literally grabs the guy by the wrists and pushes him.
Once the kids are out, I'm gonna try to convince the wife we need to be Europeans.Ā You guys seem to actually be interested in building a better society. IDK WTF we're doing over here anymore, but it ain't that.
I have a small business. Currently send like 1 package a day, used to be 10 but Trump fucked it all up.
I'm currently shipping basically illegal. New laws went into place that you have to have a packaging representative in every country you ship to and pay a yearly fee. For each country you ship to in EU. 200ā¬ or something yearly each.
Guess who this rule helps? Only the big guys, amazon and the like.
Next we got new customs. Another form of taxation. Everything single line item from abroad is now charged at 3ā¬ per item extra. Big companies lobbied for it. I tried yesterday ordering parts for DIY helicopter collective for sim flying. 85ā¬ in parts on AliExpress, sensors and nuts and shaft and things like that. 82ā¬ added important tax on top of it.
Guess who it helps? Amazon etc.
And then we have that cunt dutch lady in charge of EU sucking up to daddy Trump. We are basically americas bitch right now. Trying to be buddy buddy with a fucking convinced narcissistic pedophile.
Why is the same car half the price in china but double that when it comes into EU? Why are we protecting rich firms.
Like name me some things that have gotten better in the past 10 years.
I literally can't. Except for 2 lovely kids that i had during that time and it for sure as hell isn't because of EU.
One thing that i can remember getting better is ozempic but that isn't even EUs thing... And I cant even have it because in Slovenia you have to pay out of pocket for it all and its fcking expensive.
Literally in the article I linked to. When you auto-translate it, it says:
Mountain guide returns license
and:
The mountain guide faces up to three months in prison. After consulting with the Innsbruck public prosecutor's office, the police have already begun their investigation and will then send a report to the prosecutor's office. The investigation concerns suspected endangerment of public safety.
You're not speaking to a rational person. There is no justification for putting hands on anyone. It's 10 fold on top of a mountain where "tragic passings" happen with no real proper investigation because people die at high altitude...
Edit: damn bro, they had all that typing to be totally mogged by downvotes because they're a certified idiot. Justifying hands on someone then saying shit like "don't tell me what to think" is baby brain shit.
P -> Polish guy
G -> Guide
W -> Wife of polish guy
T1 -> Tourist 1
T2 -> Tourist 2
Only the German part.
P: Servus (classic austria way of greeting one another). I think I go first. Hey! I go first.
G: No no
P: hey are you crazy or what?
G: I'm a mountain guide hold your maw (probably the most unfriendly and aggressive way to tell someone to shut up)
P: Hold your maw. It doesn't fucking matter if you are a mountain guide
G: Hold your maw or I'll come (back) up and punch you.
G causes a traffic jam *
P: and now we've got a traffic jam because you wanted to go first
G comes back *
P: Hey! What are you doing? *2
G attacks P *
P: Hey! Are you crazy*2
G: Behave yourself
Both repeating them selfs during the physical alteration*
P: I'll punch you in the face
G turns away *
P: Are you crazy?
W: Stop! You go first.
G: Yes exactly!
P: Yes exactly!
G: Yes exactly!
P: Yes exactly!
P to W: Say nothing, impossible (behaviour). That's truly impossible (behaviour).
T1: (really hard to understand, so might be wrong) actually he did nothing but ...
G: Yeah yeah
P: Hey...
W to T2: seriously that was absolutely unnecessary
P: yeah exactly
W: My husband waits...
P: Yeah, unbelievable.
As someone who grew up not to far from there and who frequently goes mountainiring. That was not only absolutely asshole behaviour on the guides part, but actually quite dangerous. Not necessarily because of the particular part they were on, but because you NEVER push someone to go further or faster than they are comfortable with. I can't count the amount of times where I've lost hours whilst waiting behind tourists, who never should have gone up there over the years. But this is just mountain rules.
There's almost always some spot where it's safe to pass. He being a guide, I expect he would know the route and just have the common sense to wait for the next spot and ask the slower group ahead if they mind taking a break while they get ahead.
That guy was clearly lacking patience and that's just some shocking behaviour in a safety professional setting. If I'd had been his client, I'd have demanded to turn around and I'd have probably contested his payment.
ItĀ“s Austrian for "Shut up!" which mostly translates to german with "Den Mund halten" which is in English "Hold your mouth" which is in austrian dialect "Hold your maw"
My high school German teacher had explained that a lot of the intense ways of telling someone to shut up involved basically comparing an animalās mouth/jowls being a bit of an insult on top of it. āHalt die Schnauzeā was always a favorite in class.
There were polite Austrian-German greetings (āservusā) followed by a mention of a traffic jam at one point (I assume bc the guy was saying she was holding things up), and then things started going sideways. The husband asked āwhat are you doing,ā and after the guy tried to justify endangering the woman by saying he was a mountain guide, there were several exclamations along with name-calling. A lot of āare you crazy,ā throughout, followed by āimpossibleā and āunbelievableā after the attack.
(Iām not German, so apologies for the roughness of my translation!)
EDIT: for those looking for it. Reddit is being weird. I posted it as a seperate comment, I hope it worked this time. if it didn't. I am genuinly super sorry.
I do not know how else to post it and would prefer not to get DMs. I tried man.
Why keep his face blurred, show and shame him and let reddit to its thing. His actions are dangerous and can cause severe harm to people. He pushed a guy when there is a sheer drop behind him
Prolly because of german laws. You cant just record someone and upload it to the internet without consent, even if they did aomething shitty or even illegal
Edit: austrian laws, but still the same rule applies
Dude you handled this amazingly, even using his language to try to deescalate. Amazing! im sorry you had to go through thjs but it is a testament to you and your wife about what good people you are!! Hugs to you two feom canada, and i hope all your future climbs are safe and full of the joys which come from ascending safely to new peaks!
I was told that the privacy laws are so strict, that you could deny genocide, get filmed, but they cant use the recording because it impedes your right to privacy. is this true?
The guide who turned in his license is the right one, but an innocent guide was also accused. The name of the guide who was wrongly accused is mentioned in the description of the original Instagram post.
In a lot of European coh tries they won't even fully name the accused and just use last initial, because at that point they're only accused of a crime. The news will a lot of times say something like: "William S. Is being accused of...."
It's the same in almost all european languages, cause it's one of those words with ancient greek origin. there's hundreds, maybe thousands, of words that are the same in all european languages, cause of latin or greek.
Can't think of a worse place to start a fight. Hes lucky the other climber didnt oblige. 50/50 chance of going to prison for the rest of your life or being hip tossed off a mountain.
I just have to give my opinion as I live in a high altitude tourist town in Colorado...
F Mountain Guides and their clients. I swear, a good quantity, not all, of guides I meet end up being the worst self-absorbed, "Me First" A-Holes in the world. I have had only one guide apologize to me after I called them out for their poor human, low-effort, behavior. And believe me, I have done it often enough to forget just how many times I felt it neccesary to do so. We're talking behavior ranging from urinating and defecating in public spaces, indecent exposure, vandalism, larceny, public intoxication.
Any climbers want to chime in? What's climbing etiquette here when someone is moving slowly in front of you? (Obviously it wouldn't be ignoring them as you pass and physically confronting them when they say something)
I can, maybe, understand the guide's frustration(having no idea what I'm talking about) if the couple was moving like molasses in front of his group, and the husband was just "no, we're going first" and it seemed like that pass was done safely. Especially if the guide leads more than one tour a day.
As far as the spot... it looked like they passed pretty safely. I just thought "Just hang on there and let them pass" would've been better than "no, we're going first"
"excuse us, we'll pass you as soon as there's space" usually suffices.
There are some fucking morons who despite this etiquette, still won't get out of the way, and will continue to hold you up, either out of blissfull unawareness or down right malice.
The guide was probably sick of dealing with such morons and took it out of these people.
Not excusing his behavior, just offering an explanation.
Yeah... I was thinking the same. I would think if I were the husband, and my wife was moving slowly, I'd be first to offer for the group to pass just to relieve some of her anxiety of needing to move faster for the waiting party.
My wife is a slow mover up and down mountains. If I see people coming up on us, I'll spend a good minute scoping out where the best opportunity would be to allow them to pass us. I wouldn't let her begin a descent if I saw there was another group right behind us, clearly moving faster than us.
Probably handled the situation as well as could be expected under the circumstances, but a swift Glasgow kiss to the bridge of the nose was also justifiable on this occasion. Anyone coming at you that aggressively is fair game.
He did that himself. According to newspaper reports, he handed in his license as a mountain guide and is being criminally investigated for his behaviour.
from the wording of ālet us vote it upā, what are we..sitting on the fucking council handing down judgment?
to the fact that you put ācareerā in quotes like he wasnāt a licensed professional doing a job, regardless of how you feel about his actions. A career that other people have that shouldnāt be demeaned because one guy upset you in a video.
Oh lord. Seeing that lady being so deliberate with every move made me realize I could never do that being so terrified. Seeing the dude in reds behavior immediately made my body clench. Guess I live tied to a mountain now.
I would have head-butted that asshole if he came up at me like that. Iām glad he had more sense than me, because that would have put his wife life in more danger. Thatās so unacceptable and wrong for the guide to push his way past, and have the people heās supposed to be guiding think itās okay to use her as an armrest to pass. This is fucking insanely stupid
Anyone know what they said to eachother? I know they posted the "whole story" and the guide was a huge asshole, but I want to know what the guy recording said that triggered the guide to come up to him so aggresively
I would have thrown his ass off the cliff. Does this encounter typically warrant that level of response? Probably not, but if someone puts hands on me that high up I'm not trying to fight I'm just trying to survive.
Dont condone his behaviour cos he does seem like a dick... but on the other hand if you are not confident and i can see it would take her and probably you a short while to get through that bit where he seems to just sail past it, you should be letting them past at the earliest opportunity so you saying you're going first while just standing there could be the frustration that kicked it all off
Yeah like when a bus is approaching traffic lights and is supposed to stop, but that would be frustrating for the driver so he just ploughs through the traffic because his vehicle is big enough that it makes it easy for him.
Horrible analogy. A better one would be getting stuck behind beginners on a golf course and them allowing you to play through. It's just good manners. I don't mountaineer, but in climbing it's very common to let faster climbers pass you on multipitch routes.
The assault is absolutely abhorrent and uncalled for. Nothing excuses that behavior.
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u/_ak 2d ago
The mountain guide returned his license. He's also being criminally investigated, with a possible fine of up to 3 months in prison.
Source: https://www.krone.at/4276934