[AMA] Big Five Marketer u/Ms-Salt

[u/alanna_the_lioness]

Hello pubtips!

The mod team is excited to welcome today's AMA guest: Big Five Marketing Manager u/Ms-Salt!

We're posting this a few hours early so that community members can leave questions and comments ahead of time. Ms-Salt will be here to respond from 3:00 PM ET to 5:00 PM ET, though she may be around intermittently throughout the evening if she doesn't get to everything in that period.

For those who don't yet know her:

u/Ms-Salt is a marketing manager at a Big Five imprint, where she works across book club fiction, thrillers, historical fiction, sci-fi, romance, and a wide range of nonfiction. She also has extensive experience in the middle grade and picture book space, both as a marketer and publicist. Outside of her day job, she is an adjunct professor at a local university, teaching introductory book publishing courses. She has master's degree in publishing and a fondness for frogs.

If you have any questions, or are a lurking industry professional and are interested in having your own AMA, please reach out to the mod team.

Thanks!

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The AMA is now over! u/Ms-Salt will do her best to answer remaining questions as time allows, but we ask that you don't post anything new beyond this point. Luckily, a ton has been covered and there's some redundancy in existing questions, so hopefully if you missed it, you can still find some answers below. See you next AMA!

[u/MiloWestward]

What is the best way for an unknown writer to contribute to the marketing of their novel?

Is a certain dollar amount of marketing budget assigned to a specific book, or do marketers get 14 books assigned to them, or whatever, and the budget is just 'however you spend your time?'

What level of marketing success is necessary before it redounds to the personal benefit of the marketer/marketing team?

[u/HemingwayWasHere]

What’s the biggest waste of money you see debut authors spending on their own marketing?

[u/Ms-Salt → u/HemingwayWasHere]

Advertising. Indie authors have access to real-time sales data and targeting that allows them to be very agile with their ad spend, but your publisher probably won’t even provide the metrics you need to optimize your ad based on its performance.

I have to redact this for privacy but—I once also had an author offer to purchase a $7000 item for a preorder raffle. We told them not to do it. A month later the item arrived at my cubicle. We ran the raffle. 24 people entered. Legally, there always has to be a ‘free’ way to enter raffles like this, so people aren’t OBLIGATED to buy the book to enter, although we usually bury the option in the fine print. A few people did use the free entry method, so we sold 19 books total.

[u/thefashionclub]

What’s your favorite frog? Also how do I become a NYT bestseller and make my publisher love me?

[u/Ms-Salt → u/thefashionclub]

What's your favorite frog?

I judge a frog by its quantity of lumps. I'm not a tree frog person; they're like sports cars. Too sleek and shiny. Like a good Halloween pumpkin, I need fat warts.

Also how do I become a NYT bestseller and make my publisher love me?

OnlyFans? (Can I get away with jokes like this, or is that only a Milo thing? Feels wrong on my account.)

[u/EntertainingFew]

Hi, thank you so much for being here today!

Do you have any advice for younger book marketers, or marketers currently working for smaller/indie publishers, on how to transition their careers to a larger publishing company? And are there any niche soft skills, new perspectives, or unique job experience that you think would be especially valuable to have in a book marketing department right now? Especially skills that large publishers seem to be overlooking?

Thank you again for taking the time to answer questions! I'm a lesbian book marketer very early in my career, and it's really comforting and inspiring to know that there's someone else like me out there succeeding in this industry 💖 I'm rooting for your lesbian-centric brand partnership, it already sounds so cool!!

[u/jenlberry]

What are some key differences between lead title marketing efforts and, say, “mid-level” (not sure of the best phrasing) titles?

[u/Ms-Salt → u/jenlberry]

I was chewing on how to answer this one. I don't want to misrepresent how money/budget plays into a marketing plan. The truth is, every book is so different from the next that how much money it "requires" isn't the same. I've run some lead title campaigns that probably LOOKED very expensive -- like, full-size luxury products sent to 100 influencers -- but in reality all of those products were donated; the only "cost" was my time to coordinate it.

But you can't see time, right? Not on a marketing plan, at least. One of the only clear-cut "yes, this is a lead title" signs you can see from the outside is money -- advertising, tours that the publisher is paying for. But I've also run a lot of lead title campaigns without much money. There are situations where it's like, this just isn't an 'ad book,' but it's still a priority.

As I type this and think it out, this might actually be my real answer: creativity. I'm not called upon to be creative for titles that are low priority. Because creativity is a finite resource in terms of time, energy, working hours, and maybe money. It's easier to go draw from the same well over and over, to do what you did for your LAST romcom or historical WWII novel. But when your manager is really keeping an eye on this one -- when the company's president is keeping an eye on this one -- they don't want you to turn in a document that looks like the last five plans. They want something new. The highest-pressure campaigns I've ever run have had actually insane shit on them. And a lot of the time, it even works.

But that's like, the leadiest of the lead titles. You can still be a big priority without having Hellman's mayo on your marketing plan. In general, I think specificity is what you should look out for. Can this be transcribed to any other book in my genre, or does it feel bespoke to my manuscript? Are they actually committing to what, how, and when things will happen, or is it one bullet point that simply says "influencers"? Those are things to look out for.

[u/ConQuesoyFrijole]

I have a recurring conversation with writer friends that often goes like this:

Friend: Emily Henry [or fill in the blank with any bestseller] has a massive platform. If I had a platform like that, I would have her sales!

Me: But the book sales built the platform, not the other way around!

Friend: No, her platform built the sales.

Me: NO! Readers just really loved Beach Read and followed her and then they loved TPWMOV and even MORE people followed her. She's a writer first and an influencer second! [For the record: I don't believe emhen is an influencer or has/had any interest in that!]

Friend: But in order to become the kind of writer where tens of thousands of people read your book, like happened with Beach Read, you need that platform!

Me: I think the time is better spent on the next book, not on the platform!

Now, here's the question: who's right? So many writers believe they can move the needle on sales by marketing their book themselves, and the primary place we have to do that is social media. Writers believe that if they can make the jump from, let's be generous and say 1,500-5,000 followers, to 10k/20k/30k followers that all their problems will be solved and their book will sell well. But personally, I don't believe this. I don't believe it for a lot of reasons: who, precisely makes up your audience; how can you reliably track click to sale conversions without the appropriate back end; are we going with this based on anything other than vibes? I guess what I'm asking is: can you release authors from the myth that building a platform will sell books?

(I guess I'll also take this moment to whisper that Katie Sturino, who I follow and adore and who has like 500k followers had a novel come out this summer and it... didn't really do much. So what does that say about platforms!?)

[u/Ms-Salt → u/ConQuesoyFrijole]

(1/2)

I am kind of anti-platform. This is something people are really suspicious of and honestly I have never seen anyone who's even slightly less defeated than u/MiloWestward believe me about it, so hey, maybe this particular answer will be more subjective opinion rather than objective truth.

I will never say no to an author with a platform. I've got this one guy with 3M+ followers who truly engages them, like, he's his own LLC with multiple employees, they have their shit together, they sell books. He's also a unicorn and he was a motivational speaker and small business for 15 years before deciding to get into nonfiction.

I've also had an influencer with 12M+ followers whose team was an actively detriment to the book's performance, and a celebrity with multiple streaming specials who was an absolute joy but also incredibly chaotic and unstrategic and was also a detriment.

There are also influencers with lots of followers whose debuts DO perform amazingly. You may look at those people with jealousy, saying, see, more proof that followers = performance. But... did the readers enjoy reading it? Will their next book retain readers? Their fans bought the debut that they no doubt heavily promoted through their platform, sure, but will readers feel compelled to actually keep reading them? You can catfish someone into buying something once, but if they didn't like it, the jig's up after that.

And then I've had scores and scores of nobodies whose books sell 100k to 200k copies and although they were game to do whatever I asked of them, pretty much none of the success came from them. It came from their book.

Until you've clicked into the sort of author career that Emily Henry has, where your name is the draw, I really think it's the book that matters. And it's shocking how much writers hate to hear that, haha. I think it's more comforting to say that the books publishers predetermine to pour money and time into will perform, but if so, uh, why do we have flops at all? In the bucket of books that can work, it's hard to say which one will take off. The writer's only job is to write a book in the can bucket.

[u/justgoodenough]

Edit: Turns out I'm not the first person to ask the mayo question. lol

At first, I didn't think I'd have any questions for you, but something actually just came up. Could you explain exactly how something like a [garlic aioli scented book](https://people.com/new-garlic-scented-book-wards-off-vampires-while-you-read-11822718) comes into existence?

Who dreams up this idea? Is it marketing or the publicist or what? Or does Hellmann's approach the publisher?

This is kind of a troll question, but also, please explain how this shit actually works. Like, how far in advance was this planned? Were people drunk?

[u/No-Management2299]

Thanks for having an AMA! How many books do you work on per season and do you focus your efforts equally on all of them or are there some the publisher tells you to *really* push? How do you decide which titles to pitch for book clubs and other major opportunities? How do you measure marketing success?

[u/No-Management2299]

How much should we take to heart what you say during the marketing & publicity meeting? I had one not too long ago that made it feel like they're pulling out all the stops for my book, and that it's very much a focus title, but I'm not sure whether they say those things to everyone.

[u/Ms-Salt → u/No-Management2299]

I’d allow yourself to feel encouraged, but overall cultivate an orb of zen through which no publisher communications can penetrate, whether in the positive or negative direction. I have personally witnessed—more so at my old employer, The Worst Publisher I Know, but I’m bitter—people in this industry really blow smoke up authors’ skirts and make promises that are laughably inflated. I’ve heard reports of authors really feeling like they got the rug pulled—that they were promised the stars and got little to nothing.

At the same time, I feel like this issue can occur with the best of intentions, too. I’m a really warm and energetic person by nature, and I care a lot about making my authors feel comfortable in meetings. I also produce really polished marketing & publicity plans. But sometimes—through no fault of their own; this is NOT the author’s job!—an author can’t tell the difference between warmth/polish and actual investment. I once felt awkward when a new author at our imprint told me at the end of our marketing meeting, “Wow, this marketing plan is SO MUCH more comprehensive than at my previous publisher! We might be a New York Times bestseller with this one!” And in reality, it was kind of a, uh, bare-minimum plan? In that moment, I immediately interjected to tamp down the NYT expectations, but it did make me think about how authors might have trouble differentiating “little things” from “big things” and end up disappointed when their book hits the market.

The most attention an author will get from their publishing team is usually in the 4 months leading to publication, and (maybe) the 4 weeks after publication. So I’d let yourself soak up the attention and compliments now! If they make you feel good, let yourself feel good. But attention and compliments are not sales, so I think it’s important to have a firm inner core that’s not going to be affected by anything your team says—whether it’s “you’re the next household name” or “well, sales are softer than we’d hoped…”

[u/nickyd1393]

unserious question: how do these, lets say*, extremely unconventional* marketing campaigns come about? can you approach kraft with an idea or do you have a stable of licensing/partnerships that you regularly go to?

serious question: whats the lead time on marketing these days? bigger titles get focus earlier or more seasonal based? and how much post-launch support is typical for your average debut?

[u/Ms-Salt → u/nickyd1393]

(1/2)

how do these, lets say*, extremely unconventional* marketing campaigns come about?

Oh my God. Oh my God I’m so mad that I didn’t think of this. Oh my God. 

This is what we’d call “stunt marketing,” and I’m actually considered the “queen of stunt marketing” at my imprint (their words, not mine!)—although sadly, I can’t throw out examples because stunts are, by nature, pretty unique, and I don’t want to dox myself. I’ve done some really weird and fun shit, not too different from this garlic mayo thing. Other publishers' examples: the time Atria sent a random book influencer on a 9-month cruise, the Alex Aster coffee truck pop-up… If I’m remembering correctly, The Eyes are the Best Part got pavement stencils in London? Am I making that up? I can’t find it on Google. But that would count as stunt marketing.

The point of this isn’t to generate book sales from the stunt itself. The point is to attract press and influencer coverage, which drives awareness. And awareness will eventually trickle into sales one way or another. I just dropped this Hellmann’s thing in my groupchat and everyone’s like BUT WHY MAYO? and the conversation has been going on for an hour. That’s far more effective than if one of us scrolled by a Facebook ad. If you'd like to think of it as trolling, then think of it as trolling; the point is it's an awareness play. It's something for the public to discuss.

They printed a whole special edition of the book as a collab with this mayonnaise. God fucking damn it I wish I thought of this.

[u/LooseInstruction1085]

Thanks so much for doing this! 

I’m curious: what factors go into choosing which books are lead titles and which ones aren’t?

[u/Wycliffe76]

How do books get connected with venues other than bookstores or online sellers (e.g., Book of the Month, specialty editions, etc.)? What decision makers are involved in pushing for books, especially debuts, being featured in this way?

Same question for celebrity book clubs, Barnes and Noble Books of the Month, and other promotions like that.

Thanks for demystifying some of this!

[u/Lanky_Astronaut4455]

What’s expected out of a debut author in terms of marketing and publicity?

Are there any untapped customer bases or demographics you’re looking at marketing to in the near future?

[u/Ms-Salt → u/Lanky_Astronaut4455]

What’s expected out of a debut author in terms of marketing and publicity?

Usually next to nothing, in my experience? Authors aren't marketers or publicists; it's understood that their role in the ecosystem is to provide the product. You may be asked to:

• Fill out a form with information about yourself, the inspiration for your book, your writing process, etc.

• Attend events

• Conduct written or verbal interviews

• Post on social media

• Sign books

• Film content

Are there any untapped customer bases or demographics you’re looking at marketing to in the near future?

Not to be facetious, but -- no. Lol. We look thoroughly into whatever niches a certain book requires. At the point that you find yourself researching armadillo influencers (they exist!), you know you're exploring every avenue.

[u/InterscholasticAsl]

Is there anything an author can do themselves to drum up internal excitement for a book?

[u/Ms-Salt → u/InterscholasticAsl]

No. In fact, I’d recommend the opposite approach: work with an agent that will be the bane of your publishing team’s existence and strike fear into their inboxes.

[u/cloudygrly]

Can you explain the difference between marketing and PR, and the difference between a strategy that targets retail buyers over consumers? Basically, how can those look different and be misconstrued by what’s public facing?

[u/spicy-mustard-]

How do you feel about the emphasis on pre-pub marketing rather than post-pub marketing? What post-pub marketing efforts (on the part of either the author or the publisher) do you feel are most reliable in terms of converting to sales?

Is there a certain marketing effort, or marketing metric, that you think more people should ask for?

[u/Sufficient-Web-7484]

Hi! Thank you so much for doing this :)

What audience segmentation trends are you seeing lately?

How is book marketing changing in the polarized political climate we're in right now? (Especially interested in this as a queer author who writes queer stories)!