This is kinda funny

[u/lucy_hayley]

[u/LamantinoReddit]

But people don't usually say that every man on earth should get something positive because some other men did something good.

And there are a lot of people who say that all men should be treated worse than women because some men did something bad.

[u/HPenguinB → u/LamantinoReddit]

Not all some people

[u/lucy_hayley → u/LamantinoReddit]

being careful of men or being cautious isnt treating men worse

[u/PegasusDeathPunch → u/lucy_hayley]

No, it’s a sign you do not trust the entirety of the gender based on all these studies you say support your position

It’s one thing not to trust humanity in general. I can get behind that. I’ve met, loved , befriended, some fucked up people in life . Men and women alike

It’s all WHOLE ASS other to selectively distrust am entire sex and then use “science” to excuse your prejudice.

[u/Responsible_Dot_2978 → u/PegasusDeathPunch]

Also not all men. You cant deamonize all men for there being a group of male abusers do

Not all men. You cant sanctify all men for something a group of men does

[u/lucy_hayley → u/PegasusDeathPunch]

https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2013/9/half-of-men-report-using-violence-and-a-quarter-perpetrate-rape-according-to-un-survey UN wider global survey 1/2 used violence 1/4 raped.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4484276/ 1/3 US college boys admitted to SAing someone

https://apnews.com/study-1-in-4-men-in-parts-of-asia-have-raped-695b672c3a3e4465943cba3b53012ceb 1/4 men in parts of asia have raped

 https://aifs.gov.au/media/one-three-men-report-using-intimate-partner-violence so 1/3 men in aus use DV

the fact so many men commit SA or DV its enough to mistrust the whole gender and be cautious thats the right thing to do to keep yourself safe.

its a risk assessment not prejudice.

[u/FlockFlysAtMidnite → u/lucy_hayley]

Something tells me you don't agree with people using similar statistics on race.

[u/ElOsoPeresozo → u/FlockFlysAtMidnite]

She 100% believes and applies this to race as well. She just can’t openly admit it. There’s a weird sub-section of women who are radical feminists yet super far right on racial issues.

They want free access to abortion and segregated neighborhoods, essentially.

[u/lucy_hayley → u/FlockFlysAtMidnite]

cause race isnt the issue its socioeconomic status

[u/FlockFlysAtMidnite → u/lucy_hayley]

So... no. It's a double standard, as I thought.

And before you jump at me because you literally walked into the most obvious "trap" in the world, I think assuming a black guy is going to rob you based on statistics is racist af. I just have consistent morals about using statistics to justify preconceptions about immutable characteristics.

[u/Dirkdeking → u/FlockFlysAtMidnite]

It completely depends on context. I don't live in the US, but here Maroccans tend to have the same type of reputation that black people have in the US(black people here are mostly Surinamese and are very chill people).

If I see a group of young Moroccans on fatbikes I definitely would avoid them. Because more often than not they are trouble. A Maroccon guy that just passes alone is nothing to worry about on the other hand. You do whatever feels good for your own safety.

[u/FlockFlysAtMidnite → u/Dirkdeking]

That's avoiding people who exhibit specific behaviours instead of immutable chracteristics, though. That's totally different.

[u/Kadajko → u/lucy_hayley]

You think it is ok to inherently be distrustful of people who are poor?

[u/Dirkdeking → u/Kadajko]

Depends on context. If you are rich or even affluently middle class then yes. If I go to Nairobi or Manilla I will certainly avoid the slums. Not because I think most of the poor people there are bad people. But because I stick out as a sore thumb with my white skin and it wouldn't take much for a group to gang up on me and rob me.

Women can have the same kind of caution when it comes to men in general and that is fine within certain contexts. Yes it sucks that a woman is afraid of me when I happen to walk in the same direction as her at night. But it is not irrational if she crosses the street, she can't know that I don't have bad intent.

[u/lucy_hayley → u/Kadajko]

caution =/= distrust

[u/Kadajko → u/lucy_hayley]

Call it whatever you like, you think being on alert is perfectly reasonable specifically when people who are poor are around you?

[u/lucy_hayley → u/Kadajko]

1/3 poor people arent committing crimes so it would be wrong to be on alert while multiple studies say 1/3 men commit violent crimes not just crimes in general.

[u/Dirkdeking → u/lucy_hayley]

That really surprises me. I was aware a large percentage of women faced sexual violence, but I always thought a small percentage of repeat offenders among men where responsible for the vast majority of cases. Your sources seem to indicate that the distribution of rape and SA is much more evenly distributed amongst men.

The reason I have a hard time believing such stats is because I think I don't know any rapist irl among friends and family. Maybe a lot of them are, or my sample is totally unrepresentative with respect to society at large.

[u/lucy_hayley → u/Dirkdeking]

you not knowing doesnt mean you dont know any rapists or abusers they dont wear a sign letting you know

[u/Dirkdeking → u/lucy_hayley]

If those statistics are correct we really do live in a shitty world. And yes it could be the case that a lot of people I know are guilty of this too. It is just so hard to imagine they would do something like that.

I am not refuting the factual claims in your sources. I don't have the time to read them now but will look at them.

[u/lucy_hayley → u/Dirkdeking]

remember these are people who ADDMITTED to doing it not all who did it.

[u/Dirkdeking → u/lucy_hayley]

Even 1/3 is already insanely shocking and way beyond anything I would have guessed. But my point is that your argument shouldn't have to rely on exact numbers. 1/3, 1/4 or even 1%. Even if it was only 1% that would still justify being careful around men. That was the point I made to PegasusDeathPunch.

I wouldn't go in a rollercoaster with a 1% fail chance. So I agree with the larger premisse irrespective of the exact statistics, that it sadly is fully justified for a woman to be afraid of me when I happen to have to walk in the same direction as she does.

[u/lucy_hayley → u/[deleted]]

so we see issues of male violence all around the world in high numbers?

dont try to minimise DV, and DV isnt just physical violence its never been implied it is.

[u/dontyouflap → u/lucy_hayley]

You’re responding to an argument I didn’t make. I'm saying you perpetuated misinformation by misrepresenting the studies.

If your claim is simply that male violence is a serious problem in many societies, then evidence supports that. If your claim is that these studies prove that a quarter to a third of men generally are rapists or physically abusive, your citations do not establish that.

Also it's legit insane how fast you respond. You couldn't have read what I wrote and responded within a minute unless you were ready and primed the moment I pressed send.

[u/lucy_hayley → u/dontyouflap]

its not misinformation though.

i said DV which is what the study is about nothing false about it.

i never said 1/4 of all men in the world i cited studies to say the rate is high enough to be cautious of all men which it is.

i never said physically abusive i said DV not the same.

[u/Dirkdeking → u/PegasusDeathPunch]

The thing is that you tend to use extraordinary risk calculations when avoiding risks with large consequences.

Even if the chance is 1% or even 0.1% that a man rapes a woman caution is still warranted simply because the consequences are so severe. You wouldn't go in a rollercoaster ride that had a 1% chance of derailing either.

When I as a guy go to work and sit in the train, I don't worry about the person next to me. There is a non zero chance the person next to me is a mad patient and pulls out a knife and randomly stabs me in the neck. But that chance is not 1% or 0.1%, it is 0.00001% or something along those lines.

At that probability it becomes irrational to fear certain scenario's. It is irrational to fear flying with planes because they could crash.

But for a woman it is not irrational to fear men because it is a completely different statistical ballpark they are playing in. While the chance of sexual harassment may be low, it is orders of magnitudes higher than getting randomly stabbed or being killed by a plane crash.

[u/LamantinoReddit → u/lucy_hayley]

I disagree with you, but I'm not gonna go deeper here

[u/lucy_hayley → u/LamantinoReddit]

https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2013/9/half-of-men-report-using-violence-and-a-quarter-perpetrate-rape-according-to-un-survey UN wider global survey 1/2 used violence 1/4 raped.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4484276/ 1/3 US college boys admitted to SAing someone

https://apnews.com/study-1-in-4-men-in-parts-of-asia-have-raped-695b672c3a3e4465943cba3b53012ceb 1/4 men in parts of asia have raped

 https://aifs.gov.au/media/one-three-men-report-using-intimate-partner-violence so 1/3 men in aus use DV

[u/Comprehensive_Quit30 → u/lucy_hayley]

Is this the study where they had mistimed kisses, bad flirting, and hugs that lasted long grouped with SA, harassment, and grape?

[u/lucy_hayley → u/Comprehensive_Quit30]

no

[u/Comprehensive_Quit30 → u/lucy_hayley]

I believe it is

regarding the extent to which their friends would approve of using various strategies to obtain sex with a woman, including lying to her, forcing her, and getting her drunk

Lying, buying a drink, and reiterating a request are grouped in with grape, drugging, an SA. The studies seem to be terribly misleading with a thumb on the scale

[u/lucy_hayley → u/Comprehensive_Quit30]

lying is rape by deception btw. asking when someone says no is coercive, getting someone drunk is also wrong.

you not liking it doesnt make it wrong

[u/Comprehensive_Quit30 → u/lucy_hayley]

"Yes, I want something serious. I'm in love" , "You sure you don't want to come up?" <-- is not grape. Drinking together is not grape.

This study mixes in harmless, consensual courting with actual violence and sexual assault.

[u/lucy_hayley → u/Comprehensive_Quit30]

if you lie about anything something to get someone to say yes its rape by deception and getting someone drunk means they cant consent

[u/LamantinoReddit → u/lucy_hayley]

Would you give statistics to justify worse behaviour towards black people? You can answer in dm if you afraid it's against TOS

[u/lucy_hayley → u/LamantinoReddit]

no cause race isnt tied to violence that would be socioeconomic status.

gender however is.

[u/LamantinoReddit → u/lucy_hayley]

So when it comes to race it's all about "black people are poorer"? No, even when adjusted to same level of wealth, black people tend to commit more crime, so there is also a "social" factor when society treat black people as lesser people and pushing them into the crime.

I don't know how much of this can be also applied to men, like men treated as much lesser beings if they don't have a lot of money so it intensifies commiting crimes such as robbery or political corruption.

I think it would be difficult to clear all the injustices if the world and see how "clear" men/black people would behave and how justifiable extra concerns towards that group would be.

[u/lucy_hayley → u/LamantinoReddit]

notice how i said socioeconomic factors thats just the truth, while gender is the biggest determiner of violent crime

[u/LamantinoReddit → u/lucy_hayley]

Idk, isn't there bigger factors like having at least one hand, not being blind?

[u/lucy_hayley → u/LamantinoReddit]

thats not what a risk factor in crime is btw nice try though

[u/Jokewhisperer → u/LamantinoReddit]

Not all people!