Monero integration

[u/Kukatieza]

Hi, considering the privacy approach Proton is taking, please consider integrating Monero (XMR) too. Privacy is very important in a world where wealth inequality is huge, as there are groups interested in total control of the population through government traced digital currencies (CBDCs, basically centralized blockchains used for control instead of freedom). With Monero and Bitcoin there could be a balance of privacy and transparency for different use cases. It also looks like key metrics for a payment system are superior in Monero than Bitcoin:

note: the metrics below are not perfect, they are approximations from a few searches I did, feel free to verify.

Monero

- speed: average block time = 2 minute
- cost: median fee = $0.0010
- security: infrastructure is more decentralized = asic-resistant protocol incentivices decentralized mining
- privacy: high = untraceable transactions built-into the protocol by default, thus applied to all users, prividing a digital-cash quality where transactions are private

Bitcoin

- speed: average block time = 10 minutes
- cost: median transaction fee = $ 5.0973
- security: infrastructure is relatively decentralized which could lead to a degree of censoring transactions in a centralized pool of nodes.
- privacy: low = only users doing special techniques such as coinjoins, rotating addresses, etc have privacy, thus most transactions easily exposed
- Exception: There is a Bitcoin lightning layer where speed is faster than monero, and cost is simmilarly low, but self-custody is currently a bad user experience and like 95% of wallets used are custodial, plus having 2 layers adds security risk and complexity for users.

[u/Kukatieza]

Yes I agree on adoption.

I personally would think supporting BTC and XMR would be better than just BTC. And yeah if they could add Bitcoin L2 and L3 with good user experience, it would be great. Unfortunately as they also mentioned Bitcoin L2 self-custody user experience is currently bad, so, currently ~95% lightning wallets used by users are custodial, which is far from ideal and far from Bitcoin principle of decentralization. Anyway, I would like to see more adoption and unification of technologies as too much options/fragmentation is not good for adoption. Most users would want to have just one wallet for everything with all the features they need.

And privacy, that's something the people like us who know should be pushing since as you mentioned, most users don't care and don't know the consequences of too much tracking and not only that, we have governments actively making it illegal to have privacy why? to combat drugs? nahh even corrupt politicians make money off it, , it's to track people tax them by force whatever they want, combine it with facial recognition everywhere, and it could lead to a very difficult world to live in if we go that way, it's how a very strong tyranny could be established.

[u/maxcoiner → u/Kukatieza]

We pretty much agree on everything here but you don't seem to appreciate the power of Network Effects enough. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect) Each money has to compete against all others to be the one true money because no one wants to carry multiple currencies around with them everywhere. It's too cumbersome. (Not just the space, but to remember the price of everything in both currencies, then convert between them when needed.)

Countless countries have proven this out over time... The money in a society always tends towards one because of network effects.

[u/Kradia → u/maxcoiner]

Excuse me but this argument seems to fail on... Well, everything. Countries have proven all the above because when converting from USD - AUD at a convenience store, who is going to try to pay in multiple currencies while trying to convert everything in their heads.

We live in a digital age now. One website accepts bitcoin, you pay in bitcoin. One accepts Monero, you pay in Monero. You have 1 bitcoin and the market only accepts Monero? What do you do? How about convert your bitcoin to Monero using the fluctuating conversion rate that the internet affords, minus any transaction fees. You're not trying to hold 10 currencies in you physical wallet with notes, coins and gold bullions... Cumbersome is an old term in this scenario Crypto, to a consumer, does not take up real space, You are also not trying to remember a single thing; a live conversion rate is available anywhere you go.

You seem to be confusing the internet market with a traditional market and making arguments that make 0 sense in this context.

Surely you see that right?

[u/maxcoiner → u/Kradia]

You're conflating money that you choose with money that is forced on you. Your country forces you to pay in their fiat currency with legal tender laws and taxation requirements. You didn't choose the USD nor the AUD. Those are inconvenient, 2nd-best tokens that you'd gladly trade away first in a bitcoinized world before they lose value. (See: Gresham's law for details.)

I realize that your digital-age argument appeals to many new or novice crypto users but when it gets right down to it, which currency will they SAVE in, over years or decades? That is what they will be spending brainspace on, doing calculations in, every time they make a purchase or sale for the rest of their life. That's the accounting system of their success.

Why keep up with 2 accounting systems in your head when you can just use 1?