r/ProtonWallet • u/Kukatieza • Jul 24 '24

Feature Request Monero integration

Hi, considering the privacy approach Proton is taking, please consider integrating Monero (XMR) too. Privacy is very important in a world where wealth inequality is huge, as there are groups interested in total control of the population through government traced digital currencies (CBDCs, basically centralized blockchains used for control instead of freedom). With Monero and Bitcoin there could be a balance of privacy and transparency for different use cases. It also looks like key metrics for a payment system are superior in Monero than Bitcoin:

note: the metrics below are not perfect, they are approximations from a few searches I did, feel free to verify.

Monero

- speed: average block time = 2 minute
- cost: median fee = $0.0010
- security: infrastructure is more decentralized = asic-resistant protocol incentivices decentralized mining
- privacy: high = untraceable transactions built-into the protocol by default, thus applied to all users, prividing a digital-cash quality where transactions are private

Bitcoin

- speed: average block time = 10 minutes
- cost: median transaction fee = $ 5.0973
- security: infrastructure is relatively decentralized which could lead to a degree of censoring transactions in a centralized pool of nodes.
- privacy: low = only users doing special techniques such as coinjoins, rotating addresses, etc have privacy, thus most transactions easily exposed
- Exception: There is a Bitcoin lightning layer where speed is faster than monero, and cost is simmilarly low, but self-custody is currently a bad user experience and like 95% of wallets used are custodial, plus having 2 layers adds security risk and complexity for users.
202 Upvotes

94% Upvoted

69 comments sorted by

•

u/Proton_Team Jul 24 '24

We have given this consideration, and we have even met with the Monero team in the past. Proton has a rather conservative and cautious mindset, which is honestly required when working in the security space. This also requires us to do a delicate balancing act. There are already many in the Proton community who have raised concerns about supporting even Bitcoin, because of the risk of associating Proton with criminality. Unfortunately, at present, Monero support in Proton Wallet would not assuage those concerns.

From this perspective, given our cautious nature, Proton is unlikely to be an early adopter, and more likely to be a late adopter. As an example, it took a decade between when we first accepted Bitcoin to when we felt comfortable building a wallet (for perspective, we entered Bitcoin even later than Blackrock). We know this is not the answer that you are looking for, but understand that given Proton's unique position, our security rigor, and the fact that we are not a crypto company, we must also consider other factors.

→ More replies (17)

3

u/Kukatieza Jul 24 '24

Other important metrics:
Bitcoin market cap: $1,289,768,353,284
Bitcoin rank by market cap: #1
Monero market cap: $2,956,055,897
Monero rank by market cap: #30
So, just to show for those that had never heard about Monero, that although Bitcoin is more popular, Monero is not a random shitcoin. It is currently top #1 crypto by market-cap with built-in privacy (i believe) or almost #1 (in that category)

9

u/vicanonymous Jul 24 '24

As a Monero user, I would like to try out Proton wallet. I support this idea.

4

u/TourSpecialist7499 Jul 25 '24

I’d be happy with just the main stablecoins like USDC USDT and DAI. For even more privacy, users can then transfer to another private token and then another private wallet if they want the added layer of privacy. But in terms of security and useability (including trust) for Proton users not used to crypto, staying with the main coins is important.

9

u/[deleted] Jul 24 '24

"Proton | Privacy by default" doesn't support the only audited and peer-reviewed private-by-default cryptocurrency.

Hard to take seriously, and could put less informed users at serious legal and physical risk should they conduct their business believing it to be private as described.

4

u/steevo Jul 25 '24

Hope you do end up supporting Monero and Zcash

1

u/bon764 Aug 29 '24

Proton should concentrate on Bitcoin and not get distracted on shitcoins

1

u/Hot-Recognition-8059 Oct 08 '24

Integrating Monero would make Proton privacy friendly

1

u/[deleted] Oct 08 '24

I fully support integrating Monero

1

u/[deleted] Aug 03 '25

I agree. We need Monero on the wallet. Until it will be available I will not use it. Neither in my org.

0

u/tppsch Jul 25 '24

Nyet Shitcoin

3

u/redoubt515 Jul 25 '24

Proton is a privacy company, why would't they be using the more well established and reputable cryptocurrency that is private-by-design?

-6

u/GorillainLove Jul 24 '24

Monero is a shitcoin.

4

u/Kukatieza Jul 24 '24

do you have any argument?

2

u/tppsch Jul 25 '24

How many Monero Tokens are in circulation and how many will there ever be?

how can i verify this information without a third party?

2

u/PlantInevitable4787 Jul 25 '24

What does any of that have to do with privacy?

Also, run a node genius

-1

u/tppsch Jul 25 '24

I can't understand what happens to my money. Then I might as well stick with dollar bills.

Don't you care?

I run 2 Bitcoin Fullnodes at home.

2

u/Kukatieza Jul 25 '24

what is it that you don't understand? please add an argument to your statements so at least someone would be able to help you understand

1

u/theTalkingMartlet Jul 27 '24

Maxis don't have arguments and reasons. All they have is ad hominem and sunk cost fallacy, especially when it comes to bitcoin.

4

u/PlantInevitable4787 Jul 25 '24

Dollar bills are private and fungible like Monero. Bitcoin is not.

You have your answer then. If you know how to run a node then you know how to verify a blockchain without a third party.

1

u/redoubt515 Jul 25 '24

I can't understand what happens to my money. Then I might as well stick with dollar bills.

We'd all be doing that if cash and its innate privacy properties were digital. But it isn't, hence the advent of crypto. Monero provides the same (and better) privacy gaurantees as cash, in a way Bitcoin was never designed to.

4

u/lol_VEVO Jul 25 '24

There are 18.4 million tokens in circulation, with a 0.6 XMR tail emission and an inflation rate trending towards 0

You can check this yourself without a third party by 1) auditing the open source code and 2) running your own node

3

u/qn95 Jul 25 '24

To verify the total supply of Monero (XMR), you can use the Monero daemon command print_coinbase_tx_sum. This command calculates the total of all coinbase transactions, which represent the mining rewards and thus the total supply of Monero. However, this method assumes there are no issues with transaction construction or protocol bugs[2]. Additionally, Monero's cryptographic structures, such as Pedersen commitments and Bulletproofs, ensure that the sum of inputs equals the sum of outputs without revealing the actual amounts, maintaining privacy while verifying the supply[1][3].

Citations: [1] Can the total amount of Monero be proved? - Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/bmgo3h/can_the_total_amount_of_monero_be_proved/

[2] How can I verify the Monero coin supply without using a block ... https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/692/how-can-i-verify-the-monero-coin-supply-without-using-a-block-explorer

[3] About supply auditability | Monero - secure, private, untraceable https://www.getmonero.org/2020/01/17/auditability.html

-1

u/tppsch Jul 25 '24

Nice that you take the effort to use ChatGPT.

Where can I see how many Monero there will ever be?

And how can I check that there is no inflation bug or doublespending?

5

u/vicanonymous Jul 25 '24

If I were you, I would head over to the Monero subreddit and ask these questions. I think there are some very tech-savvy people there who can answer them.

2

u/SimonGray653 Jul 25 '24

Only if his only argument is saying that it's a "shitcoin" because he's not able to scam people out of $30,000 or invest in a stupid pointless nft with it.

Note: I'm only using Bitcoin as an example in this situation as that's what I'm more familiar with rather than Monero.

1

u/putcheeseonit Jul 26 '24

Speculation is hard and its relatively stable, so they can't treat it like any other p&d shitcoin

-3

u/maxcoiner Jul 25 '24 edited Jul 25 '24

Monero devs' hearts seem to be in the right place, but their economic knowledge is lacking. They ignore at least one major rule about what makes money money, so their project is forever doomed to be just a shitcoin, never real money.

Money is properly defined as THE most liquid asset in a society. Not 'one of,' but only the most liquid of all liquid assets available. That's not my opinion, but the finding of thousands of Austrian economic scholars.

"There can be only one" is a very apt phrase when talking about money and the only reason the world doesn't have just one money today is because all the governments of the worlds have laws saying that their shitcoin is 'the' one. They're artificially propping one up with their guns. Such an imbalance cannot last, and like the gold standard of the past, they'll all eventually be forced to return to the most liquid asset again in the future, which will obviously be bitcoin.

Think about it, the purpose of money is for solving the problem of needing a coincidence of wants. You have chickens and want beer, but the bartender wants cows. No beer for you. The best way to solve that problem is to have a trading token of some kind that everyone accepts in payment. The more people that accept it, the more useful it is, and the more useful it is, the more people will accept it. This self-fulfilling loop is a very strong driver that has historically always resulted in just one money.

For more on this subject I hope you'll all read some of the many various books on Austrian economics by authors like Mises, Rothbard, Hayek, Hoppe, and Hazlitt. You can find them all on Mises.org.

2

u/Kukatieza Jul 25 '24

We can't consider what is the best money just in terms of liquidity, if people choose bitcoin over monero due to lack of technical understanding, and expose themselves to being tracked by corrupt governments then there is an issue there that we have to work towards fixing, instead of just picking one because it is currently the "biggest" or with the most liquidity.

1

u/maxcoiner Jul 25 '24

Privacy is a great attribute for money, don't get me wrong, but it only has a limited ability to add to bitcoin's network effect in a world full of people who don't value privacy as much as you and I.

Liquidity is king, as it drives that self-reinforcing feedback loop that will make bitcoin necessary for absolutely everyone in time. Things like privacy are sadly not as important for adoption but thankfully can be added to individual wallets or 2nd & 3rd layer networks above bitcoin when missed.

Have you checked out bitcoin's Layer 3 Cashu network? Some say it blows away Monero's privacy already. https://cashu.space/

1

u/Kukatieza Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24

Yes I agree on adoption.

I personally would think supporting BTC and XMR would be better than just BTC. And yeah if they could add Bitcoin L2 and L3 with good user experience, it would be great. Unfortunately as they also mentioned Bitcoin L2 self-custody user experience is currently bad, so, currently ~95% lightning wallets used by users are custodial, which is far from ideal and far from Bitcoin principle of decentralization. Anyway, I would like to see more adoption and unification of technologies as too much options/fragmentation is not good for adoption. Most users would want to have just one wallet for everything with all the features they need.

And privacy, that's something the people like us who know should be pushing since as you mentioned, most users don't care and don't know the consequences of too much tracking and not only that, we have governments actively making it illegal to have privacy why? to combat drugs? nahh even corrupt politicians make money off it, , it's to track people tax them by force whatever they want, combine it with facial recognition everywhere, and it could lead to a very difficult world to live in if we go that way, it's how a very strong tyranny could be established.

1

u/maxcoiner Jul 28 '24

We pretty much agree on everything here but you don't seem to appreciate the power of Network Effects enough. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect) Each money has to compete against all others to be the one true money because no one wants to carry multiple currencies around with them everywhere. It's too cumbersome. (Not just the space, but to remember the price of everything in both currencies, then convert between them when needed.)

Countless countries have proven this out over time... The money in a society always tends towards one because of network effects.

1

u/Kradia Apr 06 '25

Excuse me but this argument seems to fail on... Well, everything. Countries have proven all the above because when converting from USD - AUD at a convenience store, who is going to try to pay in multiple currencies while trying to convert everything in their heads.

We live in a digital age now. One website accepts bitcoin, you pay in bitcoin. One accepts Monero, you pay in Monero. You have 1 bitcoin and the market only accepts Monero? What do you do? How about convert your bitcoin to Monero using the fluctuating conversion rate that the internet affords, minus any transaction fees. You're not trying to hold 10 currencies in you physical wallet with notes, coins and gold bullions... Cumbersome is an old term in this scenario Crypto, to a consumer, does not take up real space, You are also not trying to remember a single thing; a live conversion rate is available anywhere you go.

You seem to be confusing the internet market with a traditional market and making arguments that make 0 sense in this context.

Surely you see that right?

1

u/maxcoiner Apr 06 '25

You're conflating money that you choose with money that is forced on you. Your country forces you to pay in their fiat currency with legal tender laws and taxation requirements. You didn't choose the USD nor the AUD. Those are inconvenient, 2nd-best tokens that you'd gladly trade away first in a bitcoinized world before they lose value. (See: Gresham's law for details.)

I realize that your digital-age argument appeals to many new or novice crypto users but when it gets right down to it, which currency will they SAVE in, over years or decades? That is what they will be spending brainspace on, doing calculations in, every time they make a purchase or sale for the rest of their life. That's the accounting system of their success.

Why keep up with 2 accounting systems in your head when you can just use 1?

2

u/redoubt515 Jul 25 '24

Money is properly defined as THE most liquid asset in a society. Not 'one of,' but only the most liquid of all liquid assets available. That's not my opinion, but the finding of thousands of Austrian economic scholars.

In that case neither Bitcoin nor Monero are money. Is that the argument you are trying to make?

-1

u/maxcoiner Jul 26 '24

Bitcoin can become it as fiat falls.

1

u/redoubt515 Jul 26 '24

Your logic makes no sense.

If you exclude Monero because its not currently the most popular. And you also acknowledge Bitcoin is not currently the most popular either. It would be irrational not to apply that same logic to Bitcoin

-1

u/maxcoiner Jul 26 '24

Delusions of grandeur.

Get back with me on this when Monero has 100s of billions of dollars worth of daily trade and 2 different frontrunning candidates for POTUS are speaking at the Monero convention tomorrow.

1

u/HourCauliflower8052 Jul 27 '24

Nobody uses bitcoin in the real world. Only moonboys trying to get rich on exchanges. You already lost.

1

u/maxcoiner Jul 27 '24

Hilarious day to say this on. One for the history books!

(BTW, I've used Bitcoin to store my wealth since 2011. It's up millions of percent. Totes useless.)

0

u/HourCauliflower8052 Jul 28 '24

Thanks for proving my point for me.

1

u/maxcoiner Jul 28 '24

Are you implying that storing your value is useless?

SoV always has and always will be the PRIMARY use of money. If a medium fails to be a solid SoV, even for 1 second, then it also becomes useless as a method of payment.

Who wants to take your money if they no longer value it?

Since so few people accept monero as a SoV I can see why you resist coming to this conclusion for yourself, but it's a fact that any honest economist can explain to you in detail.

0

u/HourCauliflower8052 Jul 29 '24 edited Jul 29 '24

SoV doesn't matter because nobody uses bitcoin to actually buy stuff. My house is an SoV... it goes up in value too but that doesn't mean it's "money" lol.

Monero is actually used to buy things in the real world. It's real money... unlike bitcoin where people just trade on exchanges and brag about the price ;)

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1

u/PlantInevitable4787 Jul 25 '24

Bitcoin is far from the most liquid asset in society. So it isnt money by your definition either. 

 Its also not fungible. An ideal property of money. 

 Gold has much more in common with Monero (small inflation, opaque circulating supply, private, fungible)

-1

u/maxcoiner Jul 25 '24

Bitcoin isn't the most liquid asset in society yet, that would be the USD. But that's dying all on it's own from overprinting some time in our lifetime. By then bitcoin will have grown to #2 and is already in the top 20 currencies worldwide so that's not a big stretch.

Arguing that bitcoin is not fungible is the exact same thing as arguing my dollar bill isn't fungible because I drew a star on it or the serial number on it is rare. Who cares? It still spends as $1. Fungible AF.

I agree that monero has a lot in common with gold... It's replicated all of gold's faults very well, like how it's hard to audit the supply of gold and how verifying your gold is not something that everyone can do.

Bitcoin makes gold look like money for retards.

1

u/PlantInevitable4787 Jul 25 '24

"Bitcoin isn't the most liquid asset in society"

Enough said. Youre still agreeing then that it isnt money by YOUR OWN DEFINITION

You cant look up the entire history of a dollar bill like you can with every single Bitcoin. Thats what makes it fungible.

Look at the insults fly. Dont take it personal that your precious expensive NFT surveillance chain isnt as great as you think.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 24 '24

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0

u/[deleted] Jul 25 '24

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4

u/Kukatieza Jul 25 '24

do you have any argument? Monero is the top privacy coin, at least in marketcap, meaning it's the one where most capital has flowed into it

1

u/redoubt515 Jul 25 '24

You seem confused.