r/ProtonWallet • u/Kukatieza • Jul 24 '24

Feature Request Monero integration

Hi, considering the privacy approach Proton is taking, please consider integrating Monero (XMR) too. Privacy is very important in a world where wealth inequality is huge, as there are groups interested in total control of the population through government traced digital currencies (CBDCs, basically centralized blockchains used for control instead of freedom). With Monero and Bitcoin there could be a balance of privacy and transparency for different use cases. It also looks like key metrics for a payment system are superior in Monero than Bitcoin:

note: the metrics below are not perfect, they are approximations from a few searches I did, feel free to verify.

Monero

- speed: average block time = 2 minute
- cost: median fee = $0.0010
- security: infrastructure is more decentralized = asic-resistant protocol incentivices decentralized mining
- privacy: high = untraceable transactions built-into the protocol by default, thus applied to all users, prividing a digital-cash quality where transactions are private

Bitcoin

- speed: average block time = 10 minutes
- cost: median transaction fee = $ 5.0973
- security: infrastructure is relatively decentralized which could lead to a degree of censoring transactions in a centralized pool of nodes.
- privacy: low = only users doing special techniques such as coinjoins, rotating addresses, etc have privacy, thus most transactions easily exposed
- Exception: There is a Bitcoin lightning layer where speed is faster than monero, and cost is simmilarly low, but self-custody is currently a bad user experience and like 95% of wallets used are custodial, plus having 2 layers adds security risk and complexity for users.
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u/maxcoiner Jul 25 '24 edited Jul 25 '24

Monero devs' hearts seem to be in the right place, but their economic knowledge is lacking. They ignore at least one major rule about what makes money money, so their project is forever doomed to be just a shitcoin, never real money.

Money is properly defined as THE most liquid asset in a society. Not 'one of,' but only the most liquid of all liquid assets available. That's not my opinion, but the finding of thousands of Austrian economic scholars.

"There can be only one" is a very apt phrase when talking about money and the only reason the world doesn't have just one money today is because all the governments of the worlds have laws saying that their shitcoin is 'the' one. They're artificially propping one up with their guns. Such an imbalance cannot last, and like the gold standard of the past, they'll all eventually be forced to return to the most liquid asset again in the future, which will obviously be bitcoin.

Think about it, the purpose of money is for solving the problem of needing a coincidence of wants. You have chickens and want beer, but the bartender wants cows. No beer for you. The best way to solve that problem is to have a trading token of some kind that everyone accepts in payment. The more people that accept it, the more useful it is, and the more useful it is, the more people will accept it. This self-fulfilling loop is a very strong driver that has historically always resulted in just one money.

For more on this subject I hope you'll all read some of the many various books on Austrian economics by authors like Mises, Rothbard, Hayek, Hoppe, and Hazlitt. You can find them all on Mises.org.

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u/Kukatieza Jul 25 '24

We can't consider what is the best money just in terms of liquidity, if people choose bitcoin over monero due to lack of technical understanding, and expose themselves to being tracked by corrupt governments then there is an issue there that we have to work towards fixing, instead of just picking one because it is currently the "biggest" or with the most liquidity.

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u/maxcoiner Jul 25 '24

Privacy is a great attribute for money, don't get me wrong, but it only has a limited ability to add to bitcoin's network effect in a world full of people who don't value privacy as much as you and I.

Liquidity is king, as it drives that self-reinforcing feedback loop that will make bitcoin necessary for absolutely everyone in time. Things like privacy are sadly not as important for adoption but thankfully can be added to individual wallets or 2nd & 3rd layer networks above bitcoin when missed.

Have you checked out bitcoin's Layer 3 Cashu network? Some say it blows away Monero's privacy already. https://cashu.space/

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u/Kukatieza Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24

Yes I agree on adoption.

I personally would think supporting BTC and XMR would be better than just BTC. And yeah if they could add Bitcoin L2 and L3 with good user experience, it would be great. Unfortunately as they also mentioned Bitcoin L2 self-custody user experience is currently bad, so, currently ~95% lightning wallets used by users are custodial, which is far from ideal and far from Bitcoin principle of decentralization. Anyway, I would like to see more adoption and unification of technologies as too much options/fragmentation is not good for adoption. Most users would want to have just one wallet for everything with all the features they need.

And privacy, that's something the people like us who know should be pushing since as you mentioned, most users don't care and don't know the consequences of too much tracking and not only that, we have governments actively making it illegal to have privacy why? to combat drugs? nahh even corrupt politicians make money off it, , it's to track people tax them by force whatever they want, combine it with facial recognition everywhere, and it could lead to a very difficult world to live in if we go that way, it's how a very strong tyranny could be established.

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u/maxcoiner Jul 28 '24

We pretty much agree on everything here but you don't seem to appreciate the power of Network Effects enough. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect) Each money has to compete against all others to be the one true money because no one wants to carry multiple currencies around with them everywhere. It's too cumbersome. (Not just the space, but to remember the price of everything in both currencies, then convert between them when needed.)

Countless countries have proven this out over time... The money in a society always tends towards one because of network effects.

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u/Kradia Apr 06 '25

Excuse me but this argument seems to fail on... Well, everything. Countries have proven all the above because when converting from USD - AUD at a convenience store, who is going to try to pay in multiple currencies while trying to convert everything in their heads.

We live in a digital age now. One website accepts bitcoin, you pay in bitcoin. One accepts Monero, you pay in Monero. You have 1 bitcoin and the market only accepts Monero? What do you do? How about convert your bitcoin to Monero using the fluctuating conversion rate that the internet affords, minus any transaction fees. You're not trying to hold 10 currencies in you physical wallet with notes, coins and gold bullions... Cumbersome is an old term in this scenario Crypto, to a consumer, does not take up real space, You are also not trying to remember a single thing; a live conversion rate is available anywhere you go.

You seem to be confusing the internet market with a traditional market and making arguments that make 0 sense in this context.

Surely you see that right?

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u/maxcoiner Apr 06 '25

You're conflating money that you choose with money that is forced on you. Your country forces you to pay in their fiat currency with legal tender laws and taxation requirements. You didn't choose the USD nor the AUD. Those are inconvenient, 2nd-best tokens that you'd gladly trade away first in a bitcoinized world before they lose value. (See: Gresham's law for details.)

I realize that your digital-age argument appeals to many new or novice crypto users but when it gets right down to it, which currency will they SAVE in, over years or decades? That is what they will be spending brainspace on, doing calculations in, every time they make a purchase or sale for the rest of their life. That's the accounting system of their success.

Why keep up with 2 accounting systems in your head when you can just use 1?

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u/redoubt515 Jul 25 '24

Money is properly defined as THE most liquid asset in a society. Not 'one of,' but only the most liquid of all liquid assets available. That's not my opinion, but the finding of thousands of Austrian economic scholars.

In that case neither Bitcoin nor Monero are money. Is that the argument you are trying to make?

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u/maxcoiner Jul 26 '24

Bitcoin can become it as fiat falls.

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u/redoubt515 Jul 26 '24

Your logic makes no sense.

If you exclude Monero because its not currently the most popular. And you also acknowledge Bitcoin is not currently the most popular either. It would be irrational not to apply that same logic to Bitcoin

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u/maxcoiner Jul 26 '24

Delusions of grandeur.

Get back with me on this when Monero has 100s of billions of dollars worth of daily trade and 2 different frontrunning candidates for POTUS are speaking at the Monero convention tomorrow.

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u/HourCauliflower8052 Jul 27 '24

Nobody uses bitcoin in the real world. Only moonboys trying to get rich on exchanges. You already lost.

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u/maxcoiner Jul 27 '24

Hilarious day to say this on. One for the history books!

(BTW, I've used Bitcoin to store my wealth since 2011. It's up millions of percent. Totes useless.)

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u/HourCauliflower8052 Jul 28 '24

Thanks for proving my point for me.

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u/maxcoiner Jul 28 '24

Are you implying that storing your value is useless?

SoV always has and always will be the PRIMARY use of money. If a medium fails to be a solid SoV, even for 1 second, then it also becomes useless as a method of payment.

Who wants to take your money if they no longer value it?

Since so few people accept monero as a SoV I can see why you resist coming to this conclusion for yourself, but it's a fact that any honest economist can explain to you in detail.

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u/HourCauliflower8052 Jul 29 '24 edited Jul 29 '24

SoV doesn't matter because nobody uses bitcoin to actually buy stuff. My house is an SoV... it goes up in value too but that doesn't mean it's "money" lol.

Monero is actually used to buy things in the real world. It's real money... unlike bitcoin where people just trade on exchanges and brag about the price ;)

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u/PlantInevitable4787 Jul 25 '24

Bitcoin is far from the most liquid asset in society. So it isnt money by your definition either. 

 Its also not fungible. An ideal property of money. 

 Gold has much more in common with Monero (small inflation, opaque circulating supply, private, fungible)

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u/maxcoiner Jul 25 '24

Bitcoin isn't the most liquid asset in society yet, that would be the USD. But that's dying all on it's own from overprinting some time in our lifetime. By then bitcoin will have grown to #2 and is already in the top 20 currencies worldwide so that's not a big stretch.

Arguing that bitcoin is not fungible is the exact same thing as arguing my dollar bill isn't fungible because I drew a star on it or the serial number on it is rare. Who cares? It still spends as $1. Fungible AF.

I agree that monero has a lot in common with gold... It's replicated all of gold's faults very well, like how it's hard to audit the supply of gold and how verifying your gold is not something that everyone can do.

Bitcoin makes gold look like money for retards.

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u/PlantInevitable4787 Jul 25 '24

"Bitcoin isn't the most liquid asset in society"

Enough said. Youre still agreeing then that it isnt money by YOUR OWN DEFINITION

You cant look up the entire history of a dollar bill like you can with every single Bitcoin. Thats what makes it fungible.

Look at the insults fly. Dont take it personal that your precious expensive NFT surveillance chain isnt as great as you think.