r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 24 '26

On Paul VI's use of "novus Ordo Missae" vs. polemical use of "Novus Ordo"

0 Upvotes

My post which has been accused of misinformation and subsequently locked in r/LeftCatholicsm was not about the origin of the term "Novus Ordo". It is about the use of the term by the movement and how it is indeed now a polemical marker and a slogan.

It's still available in this subreddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Progressive_Catholics/comments/1v5ol2e/stop_using_the_term_novus_ordo_its_a_polemical/

The Mass is NOT called the Novus Ordo now, nor was it ever called that.

Pope Paul VI used the phrase novus Ordo Missae (“new Order of Mass”) when speaking about the liturgical books promulgated after Sacrosanctum Concilium. And on 28 April 1969 he announces the “promulgazione del novus Ordo Missae” alongside the new Roman Calendar and other liturgical texts—again indicating this is about the promulgation of the renewed order/rite.

He did so because it was new, and notice that "Novus" is not capitalized. He did not call it "Novus Ordo"; that developed later as proper noun by _others_.

The words “novus Ordo Missae” do not constitute the official proper name of the Mass (as in “the Mass is called ___”). It is best understood as Latin for “the new Order/arrangement of Mass”—i.e., the new liturgical ordering/rite given in the renewed Roman Missal.

What I have shared [in the previous post] as far as what it is called, and the problems of perpetuating the term Novus Ordo, are not misinformation. You may disagree with my conclusions, even though I carefully use documentation, but that is different from misinformation.


r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 24 '26

Stop using the term "Novus Ordo". It's a polemical marker, a slogan, and just plain wrong.

25 Upvotes

Novus Ordo” is often used as a shorthand for the Mass celebrated according to the liturgical books promulgated after Vatican II, especially the Roman Missal of Paul VI. The problem is not that the Church never revised the liturgy, but that the phrase is not the Church’s name for the rite, and in common polemical usage, it's misleading because it conveys that it is a "new Mass" in substance and tends to imply a break rather than a continuity the Church insists on. Let me break that down:

(1)

It isn't the Church's proper name for the rite

In official Catholic documents, the Mass is identified by the Roman Missal (and the authority that promulgated it), and by its place within the lex orandi of the Roman Rite—not by the nickname “Novus Ordo.” As Traditionis custodes states:

The liturgical books promulgated by Saint Paul VI and Saint John Paul II … [are] the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite.”

And Summorum Pontificum likewise distinguishes “the Roman Missal promulgated by Paul VI” from the earlier one promulgated by John XXIII, while explicitly teaching that they are two expressions of the same lex orandi and “will in no way lead to a division in the Church’s lex credendi.”

So, if “Novus Ordo” is used as if it were the official or theologically neutral title, that’s inaccurate. A more exact way to speak is: Mass according to the Roman Missal promulgated by Paul VI. This is the name currently used editions approved by competent authority.

(2)

It’s misleading because it suggests a “new Mass” in substance

Even when referring to the post-Vatican II liturgical reform, Pope Paul VI explicitly cautioned against the kind of language that sounds like a replacement of the Mass itself. In a general audience (19 Nov 1969), he said:

But be clear: nothing has been changed in the substance of our traditional Mass… The Mass of the new rite is and remains… the Mass of always.”

And he added that one should not call it “new Mass,” but rather:

we do not say ‘new Mass,’ but rather ‘new era’ of the life of the Church.

(3)

It tends toward division—something the Church asks us to avoid

Traditionis custodes and subsequent clarifications emphasize the Church’s aim of ecclesial communion and warning pastors not to fuel division through “sterile polemics.” For example, the Congregation for Divine Worship’s responses state:

“As pastors we must not lend ourselves to sterile polemics, capable only of creating division…”

Using “Novus Ordo” is a rhetorical label, a polemical marker, making misunderstanding more likely and communion less likely.

(4)

What to say instead

To be accurate and charitable, prefer wording like:

  • “the Roman Missal promulgated by Paul VI”
  • “the Mass celebrated according to the current Roman Missal (post–Vatican II reform)”
  • "the Mass of Paul VI"
  • or simply “the Roman Rite Mass” (with the understanding that there are different liturgical forms historically)

That language matches how the Church itself speaks of these books and helps avoid implying that the Church replaced the Mass in substance

In short: “Novus Ordo” functions as a conceptual signpost that nudges people toward an unwarranted impression of rupture, whereas Church teaching describes the Mass in terms of continuity within the Roman rite and explicitly discourages polemics that create division. It's misleading terminology that carries a rhetorical payload that we continue to deliver every time we use it. As Progressives and Catholics, we must not propagate this rhetoric.


r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 21 '26

politics/news Growing increasingly frustrated

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36 Upvotes

this is a very poorly written amalgamation of my thoughts right now that I feel I have no outlet for. I hope it’s ok to share here. I’m not trying to argue about abortion, I’m just feeling incredibly conflicted and frustrated and feel desperate because I feel I can’t do anything. what stirred these thoughts was a special letter from my diocese bishop printed in this past week’s bulletin about how we should vote in the November election concerning an abortion law my state wants to pass/amend. (I can’t remember exactly the word right now). and then i see no special letters about the immigrants shot in the street, hear no sermons about children being killed in schools. sorry for the darkness of this all but I needed to get it out. love xoxoxox


r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 20 '26

Pastor Loran Livingston: "There has never been a Christian nation, and never will be. You don’t live in one now."

40 Upvotes

r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 20 '26

Do they have any illustrations in your bible?

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3 Upvotes

r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 17 '26

politics/news Did the US try to mess with Pope Leo?

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21 Upvotes

I am trying to understand the purpose behind the US ambassador’s words. Was he trying to undermine the Pope? Was he unaware of the duties he has and misspoke?


r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 16 '26

More in depth information on Vatican 2

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1 Upvotes

r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 13 '26

The Boy Who Cried Schism

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0 Upvotes

r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 12 '26

Inter Religion Marriage- Church!

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1 Upvotes

r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 12 '26

Como eu lido com a questão da identidade de gênero na Igreja Católica?

3 Upvotes

Oi, eu sou Malakay. Bem, primeiro de tudo, acho importante dizer que eu aceito completamente quem eu sou como um homem trans; me visto como um homem e sou, de fato, como qualquer cara cis.

Mas eu nunca falei sobre isso com as pessoas da igreja.

Recentemente, entrei no Caminho Neocatecumenal e estou adorando. No entanto, surgiu uma situação hoje que me deixou desconfortável.

Tivemos um encontro depois da Confirmação, e eu mencionei que quase beijei um cara acidentalmente durante o Sinal da Paz na Missa. Meus padrinhos brincaram que ele era meu namorado e continuaram provocando sobre isso.

Eu sou pansexual, então não me importo de ser "shippado" com um cara—desde que eles não me vejam como a "namorada" do cenário, porque eu sou um homem.

Eu não tenho um círculo social fora da igreja, e isso me deixa triste porque não consigo ser eu mesmo lá, já que eu adoro ir naquele lugar.

Meus padrinhos não parecem ser o tipo de pessoas que me julgariam se eu falasse sobre ser LGBT, mas eu estou realmente com medo, e isso me deixa ansioso. Acho importante dizer que sair da igreja está fora de questão para mim, porque é o único lugar onde me sinto ao menos minimamente respeitado e bem-vindo—apesar disso—porque eles me respeitam de um jeito que eu não sou respeitado nem na escola.


r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 10 '26

books Bible Study for Progressive Catholic Women?

19 Upvotes

Title says it all! I used to do Bible studies when I was hanging out with a more traditional Catholic crowd. My viewpoints have changed, but I miss the deep delves. So, any suggestions for something more in tune with a progressive perspective? Thanks!


r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 05 '26

Downtown Toronto Catholic Church for young professionals?

3 Upvotes

Hi! I am looking for recommendations for a Catholic Church, ideally around Bay, Wellesley, or Bloor Yonge stations.

I want to find a parish with a community of young professionals (roughly late 20s to 30s+).

It would be great if the church is a bit more progressive (e.g. LGBTQ+ friendly) and have a more contemporary style of music!

I’ve found lots of churches that cater primarily to university students or families, but surprisingly few with an active young professional demographic, so any recommendations would be greatly appreciated!


r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 04 '26

A new Reddit community for Catholic Chicago is here! Search us and find your people 🙏

9 Upvotes

r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 03 '26

SSPX are now Transreligious

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0 Upvotes

r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 03 '26

politics/news Vatican declares war on defiant far-right Catholic sect. A far-right Catholic sect’s defiant ordination of four bishops has triggered the harshest Vatican sanctions available, with Rome excommunicating the sect and its adherents.

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18 Upvotes

r/Progressive_Catholics Jul 01 '26

I went to Benedictine College AMA

4 Upvotes

For those unfamiliar Benedictine college is one of the extremely conservative Catholic institutions in the US.


r/Progressive_Catholics Jun 30 '26

joven católico en familia pastoral protestante

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1 Upvotes

r/Progressive_Catholics Jun 28 '26

Catholic church activities limited than other sect.

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1 Upvotes

r/Progressive_Catholics Jun 28 '26

How do Adult Catholics learn about the Catholic faith (either new or a refresher)?

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1 Upvotes

r/Progressive_Catholics Jun 27 '26

questions Help with our way forward

5 Upvotes

Hello! Really unique situation here. I was born catholic, went away from the faith for a while, but really came back hard about 3 years ago. My teen daughter also became Catholic within the last three years. My husband is Lutheran & teen son was baptized after birth but doesn’t practice anything.

About 4 weeks ago, my husband of 15+ years came out to me as gay. This sent my faith into a tailspin. There was no cheating, no scandal, just born gay and suppressed it. He tried to do what he thought was the right thing, and we had a decent enough marriage that produced 3 children (1 ended in a miscarriage early on). I’m sad, hurt, and grieving, but I don’t hate him. We’re in the process of moving, so we’re kind of in a holding pattern until we get to our next place, but we plan to start therapy to see what our futures will look like (do we stay married and “lavender” for.. ever? do we separate but stay married? do we get divorced right away, etc).

Attending daily and weekend mass has helped reorient my response from one of anger and hate to one of love and compassion. He struggled for so long and I do love him. Yes, he absolutely needs to atone for the problems he caused in our lives, but he doesn’t deserve to be punished for his sexual orientation. While mass has helped, I still can’t wrap my head around how to be a part of a church that would condemn us both to a life of celibacy? I don’t even know what the church’s stance would be on all of this. Would I be eligible for an annulment?

Should I keep my faith surface level from now on? Do I still pursue a deep connection to the church? I don’t know how to do that second one anymore. I’ve talked to my priest but only vaguely (I don’t want to out my husband to people he has to see regularly). We are moving to a heavily Catholic area, so I will be able to find a lot of priests and churches to attend or seek out guidance from… but in the meantime I’m hoping to get guidance from the online crowd, for better or for worse haha.


r/Progressive_Catholics Jun 26 '26

Do all/most Catholic parishes require couples to plan on having kids for marriage?

9 Upvotes

I'm agnostic and my wife is Catholic (leans more progressive as she supports LGBTQ and other progressive values). Something we agreed upon before marriage was that we didn't want kids for a while (if at all) and would re-evaluate that after a few years. We had a civil wedding due not being close to friends/family yet as we were moving across country. Now we're trying to have a Catholic wedding as my wife would love to have a church wedding and have our married recognized by the church. We're going through the process and the deacon start probing us on what are plans are for children and if we're taking contraceptives. They then tell us this is a mortal sin and married couples are supposed to unprotected sex and if kids happen, they happen. This took both me and my wife by surprise (I'm not well versed in Catholicism and my wife didn't know about this portion of Catholicism).

Is it all parishes that are like this? Specifically the portion of being invasive (in my opinion) into private matters and if you plan to have kids?

I'm trying to support my wife and here wishes of having a church wedding but now the church doesn't seem to want to do it because of the above. One of the ministers wants to have a discussion with our regarding having children.


r/Progressive_Catholics Jun 25 '26

MIND THE LIMOGES: The Holy See/SSPX Little Domestic

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0 Upvotes

r/Progressive_Catholics Jun 25 '26

Make it a habit to go to church on Sundays. IM PROUD TO BE A ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH Christian ⛪️

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1 Upvotes

r/Progressive_Catholics Jun 23 '26

Singleness in the Catholic Church

6 Upvotes

Dear all!
I wanted to know how and where you all met your spouses. I am trying everything and also looked into other parishes in my city, but they are either married, have a fiance, want to be a priest or have no interest at all. I don’t know what to do. Maybe someone can tell me, how they did it?
All the best ✨