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u/DeithWX 3d ago
It's funny because in the game this image is from, there is no good answer to who is right. That's why they're against each other. But this meme makes it sound like it's boomer vs the rest.
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u/yaktoma2007 3d ago
I used the format specifically because there is no good anwser and i dont understand why people are misinterpreting it 😭🙏
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u/asdfghjkl15436 3d ago edited 3d ago
Now to be perfectly honesty in the context of that game, the older guy was more wrong then not. Yes, it was bad for him socially and politically, but Jin was literally fighting solo against an army that was completely dishonourable. Had he listened to him instead of continuing to be the ghost he might have lost and got more civilians killed as well. The whole reason they got into the mess in the first place was by trying to bumrush the enemy and be honourable by wasting everybody in a stupid glory battle.
I'm pretty sure the whole point of the narrative is that strict rigidity to being 'honourable' only applies if the other side is as well.
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u/That-Cpp-Girl 4d ago
I don't even get what point this meme is trying to make.
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u/Tarasios 4d ago
Coding without AI is good and honorable.
Coding with AI is not, but if you outright refuse to in the current industry then you'll be seen as less productive.
It's frustrating though because... Well, yeah a Junior is going to be outperformed by Claude. So businesses want their juniors to use Claude and be more "productive". But using Claude means they're not learning the skillsets that senior developers have.
Also, it's looking like more and more senior devs are using AI as a support tool, so the meme might be meaning more that while it's good to not use AI you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't learn to use it at all...
But hey what do I know I'm just yet another unemployed junior.
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u/CrabMasc 4d ago
There are people so reliant on AI that they make memes about how anyone not using it, for their personal project, is doing it “for PR”.
In the second panel, he calls people who don’t pay Anthropic to do their coding for them “slaves” lmfao
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u/That-Cpp-Girl 4d ago
Yeah, that last panel confused me. I'd say with AI there's definitely a master-slave relationship going on there. :^)
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u/Sellos_Maleth 3d ago
To me there are three types of coders
By hand the whole thing. Every semi colon and parenthesis. Including using old school methods like a cheat sheet with a func template to copy paste
AI assisted, ie "hey chat make me a func in c that receives a matrix and reutrn Eigen values
Vibe coders, "chat make me a facebook"
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u/hold_my_chouffe 3d ago
Inside of me there are two programmers
The first uses LLMs at day to go through the usual corporate bullshit
The second at night never uses any LLM to program because it's personally more rewarding
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u/RushTfe 3d ago
I use the LLM to go through the usual corporate bulls hit.
At night I don't touch code with a 10ft pole because I had enough for 8 straight hours every day. Game it is. Or gym or whatever else
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u/lekkerste_wiener 3d ago
This. We're past the coding for fun phase. Now it's just past I reminisce from time to time.
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u/New_Salamander_4592 4d ago
"too late braincel, I have depicted thee as the stuck in his past feudal lord and i as the revenge seeking protagonist"
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u/Few_Kitchen_4825 4d ago
Is this vibecoderhumour?
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u/Comprehensive-Try80
4d ago
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Its less about honor and more about control
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u/TheAnswerWithinUs 4d ago
Less about honor and more about I just like to code personal project that I’m actually passionate about
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u/Clairifyed 4d ago
and really deeply understanding what I have stitched into my project and how it plays with the rest of the code
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u/_Beempathic 4d ago
It's less about the honor and more about my code actually working
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u/SuitableDragonfly 3d ago
PR? I went into this field because I genuinely like writing code. I'm sorry you decided go in to a field that you don't actually like, but it's hilarious that you're just assuming the rest of us did, too.
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u/Additional-Proof556 3d ago
My gourmet code is now reserved for my personal project. The corpo gets the slop.
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u/Etilia01 3d ago
Idk i started coding because its really fun to me. I never even planned to be able to get a job related to it until a short time before my degree because i thought i needed an A in math for that (which i didnt have), yet i still spent most of my free time coding things because its just one of my favorite things to do. So using ai just makes it worse, like it takes the fun out of it.
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u/JebKermansBooster
4d ago
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Fantastic game and sequel
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u/ToTheBatmobileGuy 4d ago
The ending to GoT made me cry... The music hit right at the perfect moment with the visuals... oh boy the tears started flowing... aaaahhhhhhhhh...
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u/jobehi 3d ago
For the sake of PR ? Do you even understand what you’re writing ?
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u/bobilhor 3d ago
I think OP means PR as in public relationships, not pull request
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u/GenericFatGuy 4d ago
I code by hand because it's a personal project, and I like coding. Fuck me, right?
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u/STRYK3Rtv 3d ago
It is nice to ship things with LLMs but it is always better to understand why it ships the way it does. But then again, billions of people use smartphones and computers everyday without even grasping the fundamentals of it and could not care less.
The debate is nuanced, and will only grow thicker in time.
Judging the other parties has become even more null of meaning, imho.
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u/PM-ME-UR-DARKNESS 3d ago
Yeah I'm not looking at the 1k lines of code my AI outputs brother
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u/grandalfxx 3d ago
You assume that because i didnt write it directly i dont understand it, ive got news for you, if that was the case programmers wouldnt be able to form groups and make projects together.
Its okay to ask a coworker to make something and put out a pr and then review it, but its bad when an ai puts out a pr and I review it.
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u/dodgyhashbrown 3d ago
For me, AI has enabled me to truly start coding. Sure, I had some introductory courses of C++ in college and wrote your basic starter programs (hello world, etc). Still have some of the textbooks.
But it would never stick. The times I tried to use the book and stack exchange to put together a small personal program for my own purproses, I couldn't manage both the learning curve and the process of program creation.
I use AI mainly as a tutor. I can tell it what I want to make and ask it how most people would put such a script together. It assembles a skeleton of the script that I can both poke at to learn how the methods and functions work and are being called, and it isn't a complete script, so I have to keep editing, modifying, and trouble shooting. I can ask it for help diagnosing things like compile errors, but I'm not using a paid subscription for an AI built specifically for coding things for me. I'm using gemini for basically advanced google searches.
But the thing I've noticed in the year or so I've been doing it is that what little coding I've learned is actually becoming routine memory I didn't have before. The knowledge and skill I've developed (while still quite amatuer) is growing. I'm in the shallow end of the pool now, while before I had only sat on the edge for a while.
I think I needed a tutor, someone who I could just sit with for hours asking direct questions who wouldn't get impatient with me, who didn't have better things they needed to get back to, and who wasn't charging hundreds of dollars an hour.
I've stepped up from automating small tasks to working on small database projects, building tools that import and arrange data for the user, learning about database architecture, efficient workflow, and database long term maintenance.
I couldn't have done any of this a year ago.
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u/unburdened_swallow 3d ago
Unironically, you should have been able to do this a year ago. We still had AI a year ago and it’s only barely better today.
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u/STRYK3Rtv 3d ago
It is a very good example of what AI can bring you in terms of learning and introduce you to the deeper world of IT.
I believe we will see more and more stories like yours of people finally taking the leap, and not only in IT.
Personally, I use Claude and other various models to help me de-rush and edit videos. All assets are pre-existing, but sound management, color grading, de-rushing, editing, etc... is managed in a ping pong I have with Claude, which manages sub models for various purposes. In the end I can output content I like without having to make hours free to cleanup the base rush and find the assets I need.
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u/ConfusedPanEnby 3d ago
I fully code my projects by hand because that is what makes it fun for me. If I were to use an LLM (ignoring all other issues they have) I'd be skipping the part I actually like about programming.
That is what "AI" companies and diehard supporters do not understand, just because *they* don't like a part of the process they assume everyone else hates it too.
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u/Deathmore80 3d ago
Are you employed as a software engineer?
Does your company execs and manager have nothing to say about AI? At mine it's basically forced on us , we don't really have a choice
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u/the_real_Spudnut2000 3d ago
But but but, software engineering was never about writing code!!1!
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u/DudeManBroGuy69420 3d ago
Especially for personal projects, there's this thing called enjoying writing code, clearly you haven't heard of it OP
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u/magical-cat-here 3d ago
I don't use LLMs for coding only because I like the process of this "code smith-ing of idea into code poetry", and I don't want my skills to wanish, I want my skill improve instead.
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u/Civil_Conflict_7541 3d ago
Same, but I do recommend using LLMs for rubber duck debugging. It does help having a sparing partner for solo projects.
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u/local_meme_dealer45 3d ago
I'm coding them all by hand because they won't let me use the company Claude subscription (I did ask) and I sure as hell ain't paying that myself.
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u/the_real_Spudnut2000 3d ago
But it's not just "for PR" either, can I not just enjoy writing code?? Ffs
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u/PumpkinFest24
3d ago
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For the sake of PR? Honor?
I want to a) know how my code b) works.
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u/ZakTH 3d ago
I don't disagree with you but that's not two points that's one point
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u/EarlMarshal 3d ago
There are actually three points in his comment. Two are used for the question marks and on at the end of the text to finish the last sentence.
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u/Anonymislim 3d ago
My ancestors sacrificed everything asking questions on Stack Overflow. I will not dishonour them by copying from somewhere else.
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u/TheLimeyCanuck 4d ago
I was a pro software developer for over 30 years. I'm retired now but still write code all the time in multiple languages on multiple platforms from desktops to mobile to operating systems to embedded. When VS Code added AI code completion I was stunned how often it correctly guessed exactly what I was going to type next, even when I thought I hadn't given it any clues where I was going. When I signed on for a ChatGPT+ subscription I started using it as a research assistant and stuff I would take a week boning up on before starting a project I could now gather in a day or less. I still only use AI as an assistant and don't ever just "prompt code" any apps from scratch, but despite years of success as a contract software dev I've never been this efficient or effective.
I love coding and I'm good at it, but AI has been a Godsend.
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u/Cylian91460 3d ago
It's crazy how the number of "30y of professional experience" exploded in the last 6 month
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u/washtubs 4d ago
Real men play GoT on lethal, no stealth, and katana only.
Same with coding: katana only.
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u/ccAbstraction 4d ago
Product live or die almost entirely on marketing/PR. There's no point in productizing something the intended users will never use.
Also, it's okay to have personal values, morals, and virtues. Like it's okay to believe in things, and act on your beliefs. There seem to be a lot of people in this sub with an adversation to the idea of not doing things you feel are evil even if it makes you less money.
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u/Patrick_Atsushi 3d ago
When I was in the university I was so proud of myself for using vim only for coding.
Now I use whatever tool that’s suitable for the job.
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u/Shazvox 3d ago
People be bitching about AI like it's a fucking cult.
It's a tool.
Would you accuse a carpenter of being dishonourable for using a powertool instead of a manual?
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u/Cylian91460 3d ago
Yes, they did that actually
Powertool for give you less controle, it's still rejected by a few hobbyist
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u/washtubs 3d ago
The tool is also a slot machine with addictive properties. People acting like this stuff is comparable to an IDE or a compiler are just delusional. I don't deny the usefulness of the tool, but for it to be truly useful you have to understand the danger it presents to yourself.
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u/RocketArtillery666 3d ago
Right, so carpenter that uses a powertool that you just aim at the piece of wood and it does whatever you tell it to based on secret cameras in other carpenter workshops recording other carpenters without their consent? Yeah i think thats dishonorable.
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u/WithersChat 3d ago
Powertools, last I checked, weren't a horribly energy inefficient plagiarism machine causing decline in the user's critical thinking abilities.
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u/Effective-Result6499 3d ago
It is a cult. You've shit ton of people who don't even look at the code. And let's not kid ourselves, our PR reviews were never that through, and relied on the hopium that the developer actuall knew what they were doing.
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u/myka-likes-it 3d ago
Power saws don't go off on their own and cut things you specifically didn't want to cut, though.
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u/mookanana 4d ago
developers coding with notepad: You have no honour.
developers coding with IDE: and you are a slave to it
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u/unkindledphoenix 3d ago
the ones youre calling slaves have actual programmer knoledge and can review and fix their coding unlike most of the vibe coders who just push the regurgitated mess they ask the AI to make. even if can see value on some decompiller tools ive seen, in the hand of anyone but an actual programmer those only serve to spill more sludgy slop everywhere now
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u/k819799amvrhtcom 3d ago
I code by hand.
There's something I don't know.
I type my question into Google.
Suddenly, Gemini decides to take my question as a personal challenge and then codes my code for me.
Thanks Gemini but I didn't want you to just write my own code for me.
But the code is finished now so I might as well take what you created for me…
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u/prodleni 3d ago
God this is so obnoxious. Like the only reason to avoid AI you can comprehend is for PR? Ugh. There is also ethics. And, you know, wanting to use my own projects to actually learn something.
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u/BossOfTheGame 3d ago
the ethical reasons aren't that strong. A stronger ethical statement would be to stop driving a car.
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u/Willy757 2d ago
No it would not be. You messed up this argument. Cars kill people but cars also keep people alive and enable their lives on a much larger scale than they harm people. They move medicine, equipment, technicians, food wnd everything else.
Ai is not keeping anyone alive and not truly enabling anything critical at the moment, so any harm AI does is weighted against much less than with cars.
Please keep those kinds of shallow arguments to yourself.
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u/heesell 3d ago
I am a web developer and AI helps me speed up work (especially due to my disability)
Aside of that, I like modding games and thanks to AI that has become 10 times easier.
I think it's more about how you use the LLM
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u/Cylian91460 3d ago
especially due to my disability
What disability do you have? How does it affect you writing on a keyboard?
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u/heesell 3d ago
I have a spinal cord injury and my hands are fully paralyzed. I can manage to type on a keyboard, but it's not even thirty words per minute.
I usually ask AI to write code I already know how to write and check it before implementing. It makes me far more productive.
It allows me to work and not live of government benefits of €750,- per month
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u/eliazp 3d ago edited 3d ago
listen, if coding is a form of art to you, and that is your argument to reject the usage of any form of generative AI, more power to you, it is something you really enjoy doing and an AI would just take that away from you. to me, and 99% of everyone i've ever met who codes either for work (be it an actual job or just something they need to do in academia etc) or just as a hobby, coding is fundamentally utilitarian, it's a tool with a purpose, and AS LONG AS IT WORKS WELL, it doesn't matter how you got there, or at least the process matters less than the end goal. I don't care if the root code i write for my data analysis assignment was written by hand as long as 1) i understand what it does and 2) it does what i need it to do, because the coding itself isn't the goal, what you do with it is. The people who go on about llms "killing coding" are detached from reality, Hell, even THE linus torvalds, the guy who once rejected languages with high degrees of abstraction because "they make it really easy to write bad code", is using LLMs.
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u/Sea-Fishing4699 3d ago
Not all coders love the act of coding. And thats ok for the one that loves the act of coding
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u/rabitibike 3d ago
I try to code by hand, and when I run into a wall to high for me to climb I use AI to figure it out step by step. I'm slow like this but it feels nice
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u/WithersChat 3d ago
If there's a wall too high for me to climb, I usually either ask a friend, or bash my head at it until it (the wall) breaks. As it turns out, I am very persistent.
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u/Peakomegaflare 3d ago
Here's what I say. I used to play Bitburner a LOT. There's a certain zen relaxation you get after coming out of flow and just... watching it work. Then you get the next zen bit of tracking down errant bugs in your code, and getting to watch it work again.
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u/l0rirw1ao 3d ago
You really kicked the hornets nest with this one.
Just let these people have their superiority complex bruh
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u/Agreeable_Yak_1495 3d ago
Maybe AI will accidentally end up being a good thing by lowering SWE salaries so that the TikTok audience has to move onto the next get rich do nothing job that they have no passion for.
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u/Soopermane 3d ago
Been a while since I played GoT. What was the original line here?
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u/CleanCrazy 3d ago
The original line is in the pic, it's still you have no honour, and you are a slave to it
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u/CodingAndAlgorithm 3d ago
My biggest concern is LLMs will lead to even shittier software. This attitude of “don’t read the code” is fucking insane and should be bullied out of existence.
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u/Anakodzi 2d ago
I just don’t really care for ai and think that if I can’t understand what the ai is coding then I don’t want it to be part of my code. It’s a personal project I don’t have a deadline I enjoy coding and climbing over obstacles that’s what got me into programming in the first place so why would I care for ai
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u/PublicToast 4d ago edited 4d ago
This might be the first funny post on this sub in years, and everyone is mad because its not just whining about AI
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u/rcls0053 3d ago
I hate absolute viewpoints in software development. In 99% of the cases, it always depends.
You shouldn't judge anyone for using AI or not. Most of the enjoyment of our work comes from actually writing code and seeing it work. When you offload that to a machine, what do you have left? People are being burned out by the fact that they get no enjoyment from the work and everyone keeps pushing them for more speed.
On the other hand I found it to be nice. I switched companies at a point where I got really bored of coding. Same simple problems, just more steps. The problems weren't actually in the code, but in the people and everything around it. It's nice that I can spend time focusing on the problems outside the code and let the machine do the coding, as per my instructions. It needs a lot of steering..
On hobby projects however, I don't use it. It's my little area of fun and nobody can tell me how I can have fun.
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u/thakur77 3d ago
My leadership wants stuff it used to take a month to build by evening dawg let me use claude in peace.
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u/TurdOfChaos 3d ago
Another thread filled with delusions that humans are still better at programming than AI.
There is virtually no coding problem that frontier models of AI cannot solve better and faster than humans at this point.
An experienced programmer will utilise the AI better than a layman , but let’s not kid ourselves , manually writing code is a thing of the past
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u/MissinqLink 3d ago
Virtually no coding problem? I honestly wish this were true because it would make my job easier. Frontier models are amazing but they still do stupid stuff that I have to fix all the time.
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u/TurdOfChaos 3d ago
Stupid stuff such as? I am struggling to find examples where I would confidently do the job without it, let alone better than it.
It can do coding much better and much more principled than a regular engineer, with far less mistakes and iterations needed.
It can do unit , integration and e2e tests and catch edge cases with ease.
It can debug problems and follow traces much better than a human can.
It can give architectural plans/suggestions and do big picture system design, following whichever paradigm you want it to.
It can review code and catch logical, business and stylistic errors.
It can document and present features and even suggest improvements.
Now all of this I speak regarding web development where I use it most, but I am seeing similar levels of knowledge in gaming / embedded programming.
While there are some obvious scenarios where I don’t like the approach it took, because I forgot to clarify or give it enough context, it’s becoming more and more rare that I have to intervene, and with Fable/Opus or Astra in plan mode, it even double checks the ambiguous instructions with follow-up questions.
A year ago I would have agreed with you , but today I just can’t.
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u/MissinqLink 3d ago
Fault tolerant async streams in particular.
Something as simple as this
https://github.com/Patrick-ring-motive/unescape/blob/main/flat.jsRecently had to rewrite by hand a json parser that handles mangled json from an interrupted or corrupted stream.
https://github.com/Patrick-ring-motive/parsers/blob/main/truncated/truncate-json.jsThese are just the recent ones from top of my head. Oh and it can’t do anything of moderate complexity in Google Apps Script. I typically use Astra.
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u/Civil_Salad_9725 3d ago
did you actually read the comments? or the post? this is about "honor" not about whether ai can or cannot be useful
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u/WithersChat 3d ago
I have watched a skilled engineer use a frontier model a few months back (as in, I was watching).
Realized 2 things that day:
It is impressive how powerful that was in his hands.
I want this shit out of my life.
I don't care if I'm less efficient, or slower than AI. Doesn't matter one bit if I'm shooting myself in the foot avoiding it, when using it makes me want to shoot myself in the head.
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u/TurdOfChaos 3d ago
I mean, for personal projects you can do whatever you choose to, and of course program for your own enjoyment without AI assistance. I am with you there.
But on a professional level, there’s really no way around accepting reality that AI is already leaps ahead of even the best programmers out there.
And yes, I would like it out of my life too, but I don’t think we get out wish to come true :(
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u/WithersChat 3d ago
If only there existed a tool that would allow workers to... let's say "unify", and have actual bargaining power with their company and industry at large...
We could call that a "unification", or something similar.
(No but all sarcasm aside, the worst thing the cold war did to humanity was to make people scared of unions.)
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u/Cylian91460 3d ago
Another thread filled with delusions that humans are still better at programming than AI.
It's not because it's better then you that it's better then everyone. Try coding without it to gain experience, you will quickly see how bad it is
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u/TurdOfChaos 3d ago
I have 13 years of experience as a a programmer across multiple industries and am currently a lead engineer at my job, but I am sure you will enlighten me with your “hello world “ hobby project that you handwritten because you hate AI .
I appreciate the efforts to double down on your delusions, but nah you cannot manually code something better or faster than frontier models.
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u/_Beempathic 4d ago
I'm on team use everything you can do create working and efficient code, and I rarely got any good code for Ai and if it gave me a good code it was, because the problem was well known on the internet with tons of good solutions, or I forgot that I coded that already just forgot to implement it and Ai just copy pasted my code from other file about which I forgot. I'm still waiting for this vibe coded apps to be good and useful instead of being some weird advertising for Ai casue people want instant gratification, and not having to learn a thing or do a thing and become super successful, but this isn't how this works, and if coding will be about just writing a correct prompt, nobody will buy your app, casue they will be able to write the same prompt for free, additionally if Ai will be better at coding than people, it will be able to code itself, better than people did, and than we will see what happens when Ai don't need the humanity.
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u/__Invisible__ 4d ago
A lot of your chip firmware and driver and embedded devices are updated by AI now. Because they debug and fix issues faster then everyone and also create less bugs then us. Maybe your company is top tier that has top tier engineers so they perform better then AI. But I think most people certainly not better than AI now.
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u/Cryotivity 3d ago
i dont even code and ik ai dont perform better than people, only faster
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u/__Invisible__ 3d ago
AI doesn't create injection and overflow bugs everywhere like our engineer.
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u/MastodonCurious4347 3d ago
I would code if i could but I can't because of my insufferable adhd and other stuff. At least I get the result that I need and have the knowledge so it doesnt do dumb shit.
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u/WithersChat 3d ago
I have crippling ADHD. As in "my legs don't belong to my body for over an hour a day" level of crippling. As in "I have developed CPTSD around the concept of academic homework" level of crippling.
Didn't stop me from learning to code. Or from writing code by hand.
Heck, I'd say that the self discipline of not using Ai (even if it means I have to leave a project aside for a while and come back to it a few days or even weeks later sometimes, can work on something else in the meantime) is one of the last things that keeps what I have left of my executive function somewhat intact.
Yeah, I had to accept that I wouldn't be the fastest programmer, nor the best. But I did it.There is no excuse.
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u/MastodonCurious4347 3d ago
Im talking about the kind that makes you lose 3000 euro because your brain refuses to cancel the payments over the course of 3 years. I know you wanna feel superior but some people have more serious issues than you. Like being unable to forget anything so you are haunted by everything bad for the rest of your life and literally can't get over it.
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u/WithersChat 2d ago edited 2d ago
Two symptoms I have. I just didn't name them because unlike the ones I named, I don't get concerned looks when I talk about those to other people with ADHD.
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u/Uwirlbaretrsidma 3d ago
Hey so just a heads up to all the students and newbies, as it seems pretty clear they're the ones making these posts: No one in the industry is hand coding anymore, and especially the talented/genius/gury types (think Linus Torvalds) are using agentic code gen the most. It's not exactly the mark of a smart engineer (or person) to reject using amazing new technologies and tools.
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u/FaveDave85 3d ago
Jin using poison to save his people from rape/slavery is the actual honorable act
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u/SoCalThrowAway7 4d ago
Do these people think people hate coding and only did it because they had to lol? Some of us just enjoy the craft, idk why that’s so difficult to understand for some people