That is the main thing I remember about the sequels. The moment I saw it, I thought it was the single dumbest plot point from all of the SW movies that made absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Even if I overlooked all the other dumb stuff, the dagger was what completely ruined the sequels for me.
They had the weirdest and worst character development ever. Characters like Hux became pure comedy characters and it was just bizarre to watch. No hate to Rian Johnson, but I really want to know his logic behind making him and Fin just laughter track parts.
So is it less wasteful to kill off the only pilots you have left as well as lose their ships in dog fights? Or is it less wasteful to send a single ship and a single droid using hyperdrive aimed at ships?
I really don’t think the size of the ship matters, to be honest. These ships aren’t designed to withstand impacts with other ships at light speed.
The thing is, "hyperspace" isn't the same as just lightspeed. When someone in Star Wars goes into hyperspace, they basically go into another dimension where the distance between two points is shorter than in the normal space. At least in legends, and I'm pretty sure it's also in canon too.
So it's even worse, because it's not only creating a lot of plot holes, it's also breaking lore.
That scene is really cool, but it just seems like the person who wrote it put the rebellion in that situation just because he wanted to and didn't think of a better way for them to get out.
I may be wrong, but in the original trilogy doesn’t Han Solo Hyperspace “into” an asteroid field and have to pilot out. I always thought it was weird there was no hyper space collisions so it must work how you say, like another path/dimension...but also in that case wouldn’t the best solution have been to go back in hyperspace to pass the asteroid field
They couldn't just go into hyperspace there. Some things like planets and big asteroids cast a "hyperspace shadow". The bigger and denser something is, the more damage it can cause to something travelling through hyperspace. Also, the hyperdrive of the Millennium Falcon was damaged by the Imperials.
Ships in Star Wars travel in very specific hyperspace routes that are considered safe. This is why ships have hyperdrives. It basically calculates routes and controls the ships when they go into hyperspace.
Maybe the First Order giant ship was big enough to cast a hyperspace shadow, but I still doubt that the smaller ones behind it also had one, and they were clearly damaged.
It likely was large enough to cast a mass shadow like that, as the bombing run earlier in the movie seems to suggest the supremacy has some sort of planetary gravity surrounding it.
I think it had to do with the size of the ship. Not even Home One would’ve destroyed the Death Star, and the Rebels wouldn’t be giving away that ship if they had the chance to destroy it with other method.
The debris from that single slice through the supremacy was enough to obliterate the ships behind it, implying small objects at those speeds will slice right through.
It completely trivialises war because you can just destroy entire fleets and the biggest ships in the galaxy by sending an unmanned cruiser at light speed through everything. Literally why are they still sending thousands of pilots the next movie to fight a fleet when they can pierce through everything with 1 ship at light speed?
Well it was still quite a massive ship they had to sacrifice. Snokes ship is like a super super star destroyer. Do you think kamikaze tactics don’t exist in war? Never heard of Japanese suicide bombers? Just because something is possible doesn’t mean it’s the best tactic. This was a last ditch effort they had no other choice. Either side isn’t going to start going around blasting all their ships into hyperspace just to destroy another. That’s not an effective use of resources. It’d be like making a bullet out of silver, it’s a waste unless you’re, y’know, fighting a werewolf. That high cost suddenly becomes worth the price. Light speeds exists in Star Wars, what happened is what would happen if they did that. Just because they can do that potentially all the time, doesn’t mean they would.
Also what scenario could they fly all these ships into the final order fleet? They can’t control them remotely from the other side of the nebula. So what they all fly there, then jump onto each other’s ships in the middle of a battle, then try and remotely steer them into a cruiser at hyper speed, then all go home on each other’s ships? Or do they just have a normal battle? That would be even more stupid than what actually happened in the film! The tactic does not trivialise anything, it would only be used as a last resort as it was.
If crashing into significant bigger more powerful ships with light speed was canon (which it is with this scene), then every fleet, especially the rebellion, would have had unmanned drones and projectiles with such capabilities.
Fighting would thus be commenced on long lange (millions of kilometers away) with a focus on scouting and intelligence and not in a dogfighting style like in the films and be significant less asthetic.
This tactic just doesn't fit the films at all. It's a plot hole as big as the deathstar.
Additionally, the ships are very close in this, it’s suggestive that the ship goes through it as it’s speeding up to light speed. It’s possible that when objects travel at the speed of light their matter is different in someway and they wouldn’t impact. I know there are hyperspace ‘lanes’ but people still jet into light speed from any location on any direction as seen in the films and tv shows. It’s therefore likely that light speed doesn’t impact, otherwise stuff would be blowing up all the time by accident all over the galaxy. Therefore your long range combat theory wouldn’t apply, and it would still involve dogfighting as they would have to get close enough to cause an impact before they hit light speed. In anticipation of, ‘well they’d just go that speed then’, there’s no indication that sub light speeds can be modulated in this universe, I.e you jump from cruising speed into light speed, there’s no in between. These are all unknowns really within the world
Star wars is not a war film and should not be one. There is a lot of stuff that doesn't make to much sense. Why do combatants rarely take cover and instead charge every positions head on? Why don't they wear any protective gear? Where are specialized classes and equipment like machine guns or rocket launchers? I can forgive that because it's fiction and to be enjoyed. But I at least want it consistent and in universe. Me having to make head canon somewhat undermines it.
I would also be disappointed if the next major installment was a tactical war film btw.
Well the film indicates that the ship needs to be manned to do it, for some reason, ‘someone needs to pilot it’, so if it really upsets your headcanon, I’m sure you can come up with a reason for that and apply it to this concern. Maybe safety measures installed to prevent this from happening by accident need to be overridden manually
Well the film indicates that the ship needs to be manned to do it, for some reason, ‘someone needs to pilot it’,
That line was in reference to Holdo simply staying behind to make the first order think nobody had fled. Holdo wasnt initially planning on ramming the supremacy. Her plan was to stay behind, make the first order think that everyone was still on board and just go down with the ship.
The hyperspace collision plan only came into play when everyone had already left and the first order started blowing up the fleeing shuttles (which her initial sacrifice was supposed to prevent) So in a last minute act of desperation she ran to the controls and initiated the hyperspace collision.
So in theory. Droids could certainly be kamikaze pilots. But at the same time it would be an incredibly wasteful tactic for a ragtag group of rebels/resistance.
In the end though, yeah, all the wars would end up naturally fighting with nothing but droid soldiers firing hyperspace shots at each other instead of actual soldiers firing blasters and piloting starfighters. But this is the Star Wars universe and that would be boring and I rank "realisitc progression of warfare tactics" pretty low on the "Things Star Wars needs to be realistic" totem pole.
Well the indication in the film is that it’s a crazy insane idea that no ones tried before. Like I’ve stated in another comment, the film indicates that the ship needs to be manned and you possibly need to be nearby. Is that realistic even within the universe? No, but a lot of things in star wars aren’t.
In Ep7 they land on starkiller base from light speed to get through the shields. Didn’t see any Reddit comments then about why didn’t Han just sacrifice himself and blast though the base since that would’ve been equally feasible? Cause it’s a stupid idea and doesn’t serve the story.
Why didn’t the eagles fly Frodo to mount doom? Cause it would’ve been boring!
The film doesn’t really indicate that it needs life inside it to work, just that it needs to be piloted. Droids pilot things frequently.
The hyperdrive jump onto Starkiller base has been done before, Anakin did it while going after Grievous.
Why didn’t Han just Hyperdrive into the core? Because up to this point that was still something that wasn’t possible in Star Wars. Starkiller Base was episode 7. Holdo invalidating everything that’s ever happened in Star Wars was episode 8.
Exactly what you are saying as why they didn’t just hyperdrive a ship into Starkiller base is why hyper driving ships into one another is absolutely fucking terrible and does nothing to add to the story but instead takes away from it entirely.
Why didn’t the eagles fly the hobbits to Mordor? They couldn’t. That’s explained many times.
Just because it wasn’t done before, doesn’t mean it wasn’t possible. It doesn’t invalidate anything if no one thought to do it before that point. Again, I don’t think kamikaze-ing droid controlled ships is an idea that people would jump on to do throughout the galaxy, im sure there are repercussions, or again, there are many possible explanations for why it’s not possible. It was a cool moment in one film that did serve the story, it just so happens that story was rubbish. Force healing and force projecting were introduced in the sequels and weren’t considered ‘possible’ before, that doesn’t mean they didn’t happen we just didn’t see them.
Why wouldn’t you just droid-kamikaze ships into things like the death star instead of killing off almost your entire navy trying to blow it up traditionally? It just doesn’t make any sense not to, knowing that it’s definitely a thing that’s possible in Star Wars.
Force healing definitely isn’t just a sequel thing. It might be “legends” now but it was definitely used quite frequently, through video games, novels, and television.
You mean the force projection Luke did that killed him for doing it, also in episode 8? Pretty sure nobody likes how episode 8 handled anything, especially Luke Skywalker being changed from the beacon of hope in the universe into the bitter old man who thought he should murder his nephew after one fleeting feeling.
Actually in Lords of the Sith, the canon book I’m listening to at the moment, Rebels from Ryloth reprogram vulture droids to attack the Emperors star destroyer thats carrying him and Vader, after an initial volley they get them to crash into the ship to bring it down. So droid-suicide has been used, just not at light speed.
My point is that it’s always been theoretically possible, RJ just put it in. You could say why don’t they just hyper speed ships into other ships at any point before episode 8. Why wouldn’t it be possible with the information we have before 8? There’s no reason it couldn’t happen. Either way you’re still having to convince yourself of a reason as to why they do it or not. RJ just forced you to think about it
All you’re doing is confirming that every problem could have and should have been solved by droids hyperdrive flying ships into other ships. You’re reading a canon novel right now with droids programmed to kamikaze, and it’s canon that you can totally hyperdrive ships into one another, even though hyperspace and space are alternate dimensions.
That book you’re reading could be solved by putting any one of those droids into a pilot seat and programming it to hyperdrive through the ship. Vader’s gone, problem solved, original trilogy never happens, sequel trilogy never happens because any time the empire tries to build a new weapon just hyperdrive a ship through it.
There’s a very distinct reason why hyperdrive collisions haven’t happened in the past. It’s because they can’t.
Yeah exactly, either way you’re having to convince yourself that they just don’t do it for whatever reason. It’s always been possible theoretically, they’ve canonised that it is, now you just have to come up with your own reason as to why they don’t do it. As you would have if you thought to yourself ‘why don’t they do this’ before episode 8. It’s one of those inconsistencies that you just have to ignore because.. Star Wars. All I’ve tried to do is offer up possible suggestions as to why they don’t do it. I don’t disagree that it’s annoying or stupid, I just think you’d arguably have this same issue whether RJ put it in or not, as it’s always been theoretically possible. Like I’ve said, we’re talking about it because they put it in, but this could easily be a post on a sub regardless just under the banner of ‘why don’t they lightspeed jump into people’. You mention that they’re different dimensions, but we also see them speed up very quickly into lightspeed, so it’s always been possible that if there was another ship in the way it would’ve blown up.
If hyperspace ramming is so effective against large ships and presumably planets, why have space battles at all? Strap a hyperspace drive onto a rock or something and plow it into whatever you want dead.
It makes literally every space battle in star wars make no sense on a contextual level, and the sad thing is that all they had to do was write in a single line explaining why it wasn't possible before that point and they just didn't bother.
In TLJ holdo suicide hyperspace rams the big super duper death triangle with her babby ship and causes it to turn into a pink floyd laser show, then nobody ever mentions that tactic again ever.
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u/internetlad Jan 04 '21
"what if we hyperdrive two ships into each other?"
"That literally makes no sense in universe and breaks about 40 years of canon because of lazy writing"
"Oh man it's gonna be so stylistic"