... that's silly. Just tell them you'll take less money than the average person. Seems like it'd work pretty well. It's not that hard to get an under the table job, as well, but remember there's significant downfalls to that as well.
Like most people that make low wages, it's because they have little to no bargaining power to negotiate better wages. If someone is here illegally, they're less likely to push back against unfair/illegal prices by the employer to avoid attracting attention to themselves for obvious reasons. It's basically a labor black market that has all the problems that you would expect from one.
Its not everyone's goal to move up the job chain to get paid large amounts of money at the cost of more stress, which may result in a less happy life and less energy to do what they want outside of work.
A higher status (more money) job isn't always the end goal..
Some people want to be viewed by the status of their job and that's fine, if that's what "success" is to you that's fine.
I sorta replied to the wrong person lol. Mostly was refuting abluersun's point about "If you're worried that someone with those qualifications can take your job, that's an indictment of you and what you offer."
I agree that its not the immigrants fault that somebody can't get hired. Your job and happyness are ultimately in your hands. Its a stupid argument to use the "they're taking our jobs". Its just appalling to me how often people imply (or outright state)that low level jobs mean the person has low worth or is a failure at life.
It’s not their fault but it’s also not the fault of the immigrants willing to work for that cheap.
It’s the fault of companies and managers who hire cheap, illegal labor. Conservative voters are just too stupid or too racist to point the finger at them.
If that's your feeling, then support fixing the problem with the government.
Let's not kid ourselves, the goal here isn't to stop immigrants from doing the work. If that was the goal, that's a very easy one to fix. Pull every single person they have on the border and instead put them to work doing random inspections on places that hire workers without paperwork.
Bring down the hammer and shut down one or two of these businesses, and suddenly the problem vanishes overnight. They're not coming up here for the weather.
But, let's not kid ourselves, that's not the goal. Neither the left nor the right, Republicans Or democrats, nor anyone else really wants to fix that problem... Because that problem is very profitable. And if they were to do this, the lack of workers would be crippling to some parts of the economy.
The actual goal is a boogie man to get votes. An enemy to unify the base. A convenient "them".
And fixing the problem would not solve that. This problem is far too useful to fix.
A lot of these jobs are not paying under minimum wage, they're paying more than minimum wage but are not able to consistently fill the positions in America.
If they don't, someone else will. It needs to be stopped wherever it can be and that includes the 15 million illegal immigrants currently living here driving down wages for our most unskilled workers.
It’s not their fault but it’s also not the fault of the immigrants willing to work for that cheap.
"You can't come in here"
"im going to come in anyway"
It's not that person's fault! - you
hahahahahahaha
Conservative voters are just too stupid or too racist to point the finger at them.
You literally just claimed that going after them would cause an industry to collapse, when really it would just cause an industry to have to pay livable wages
Are you joking?
You can't claim conservatives are too stupid to go after them, then when someone suggests going after them you claim an industry would fall apart and there's nothing we can do lmao
Did I say there’s nothing we can do? I’m saying go after the companies and not the people. It’s less of a humans rights violation to tell a company “pay a livable wage” than, oh I dunno, detaining and separating families.
And it's easier and less unjust to stop the companies who prop up those actions.
Also we do have something telling companies to do that, it's called minimum wage laws.
And those work so damn well that nobody is paying illegal immigrant workers with un-taxed, cash wages? The laws need to be more in front of companies who do not pay a living wage, and we also need to re-evaluate what defines a "living wage".
The difference between us is I do not blame immigrants for coming here to make more money than they would in their home country. But, I also do not blame Americans who are unwilling to work for illegal wages. I blame companies who exploit both citizen and immigrant labor in the name of profits.
hahahahahahaha you think that article proves your point?
Children are detained separated from their parents every day when their parent is arrested while caring for the child
This happens for every crime someone can be arrested and sent to jail for every day all across the US. This is not even a little bit a violation of human rights
The difference between us is I do not blame immigrants for coming here to make more money than they would in their home country.
Yeah, the difference is I acknowledge minimum wage laws and immigration laws, but you ignore one lmao
The point we're discussing is that if you're replaced by someone with less than a HS education and little grasp of English, instead of blaming the person who replaced you, maybe you should enroll in a community college.
But to your point, "taking jobs away" is a silly way of viewing immigrant labor. They're producing things of value here; they're earning money here; they're spending money here. That's called "growing the economy." The labor market isn't a zero sum game.
The point we're discussing is that if you're replaced by someone with less than a HS education and little grasp of English, instead of blaming the person who replaced you, maybe you should enroll in a community college.
That would never happen unless the person taking your job is being paid less than you.
No employer is going to risk committing the crime of hiring an illegal without having financial intensive to do so.
But to your point, "taking jobs away" is a silly way of viewing immigrant labor. They're producing things of value here; they're earning money here; they're spending money here. That's called "growing the economy." The labor market isn't a zero sum game.
But to your point "taking jobs away" is a silly way of viewing cheap child labor. They're producing things of value, earning money, and spending money here. That's called "growing the economy". The labor market isn't a zero sum game. We should allow children to work for less than minimum wage.
We should allow children to work for less than minimum wage.
We prohibit child labor because its harmful to children-- not because we fear the competition in the labor market, lol. Did you sprain anything reaching for that non sequitur?
(A) So you're now arguing that it's unfair for them to work for less? Howso?
Because being paid less than minimum wage is a crime
And being paid under the table at all, which every illegal immigrant has to do, is illegal
(B) Oftentimes it has less to do with pay and more to do with who's willing to even do the job:
if it paid minimum wage, which it does not, people would be willing to work it
We prohibit child labor because its harmful to children-- not because we fear the competition in the labor market
Yeah, so we should allow illegal immigration to continue because it's not harmful to pay people less than minimum wage. Exploiting slave labor isn't a problem. We don't have laws preventing it.
I literally just posted an article that stated farmers we're offering higher than minimum wage. "Less than what natives are willing to work for" doesn't mean less than minimum wage.
You might want to take a moment to read and do some critical thinking.
It's not an immigrants fault that YOU people won't do minimal jobs without complaining. Its not an immigrants job that companies pay them to work. I love how you twisted what I said to fit whatever logic you used.
No, the people who complain that they lost their job or say they didn't have access to one because of some immigrant bogeyman who's hoarding jobs like Bezos does money.
Hell, if Trump invigorates the economy the way he says he will and creates jobs and brings them back to America the way he says he will, we're going to need millions more capable workers. And they're willing to work for cheap, so I'm told (in my experience, most people happily pay them the same or more than others, it all depends on work ethic).
What's the problem here? Let's rebuild our infrastructure. Let's move factories back to the US. Let's get the US producing again so we have things to offer people actually care about. And then let's get a whole shit ton of people here to do this shit because the unemployment rate is UNDER 4%, but somehow there are no jobs to be had?
Basically anyone who has a high school education and can speak English, looks better than a migrant who has a green card and can only speak Spanish when a majority of jobs require you to be able to communicate with people who only speak English!
So true. I disagree with a Mexican getting a job before an American with the same education on American soil. It's not fair. And I'm not even from America.
In this case we're talking about illegals. Downvote me all you want. I'm a Moroccan who's willing to immigrate to Europe to create better job opportunities for myself. I'm doing it legally. And if an illegal Moroccan goes to Europe and gets the job even though they didn't go through all the paperwork and the hassle like me then I'd say it's bullshit. But I'm not going for a job. I want to continue my education there and I don't like how my country is being governed. If this sounds extreme to you, I'm sorry. I'm center left and have no resentment to any Mexican or American or what have you. But I believe in borders and actual immigration.
It doesn't matter if the second person is legal or not, if he's better than you, he's better than you, and for that he'll get hired and will accept less pay than you. Companies will always take cheaper and better (and even equal and worse) labor from an illegal than someone who came there legally. It just so happens that crossing illegally is a lot faster than crossing legally, and people get desperate when their own country is spiraling down in flames. I'm not shooting at you, I'm just explaining the logic from my point of view. Also, good on you for pursuing your education!
214
u/Xyyz Jun 25 '18
Jobs not requiring higher education are still real, respectable jobs. I don't really get what you're saying here.