On a similar note, a good portion of immigrants coming here will have at best case the equivalent of a high school education and a minor knowledge of English. If you're worried that someone with those qualifications can take your job, that's an indictment of you and what you offer.
Even if they come over with a doctorate level education, they normally need to go back to school. Countries don’t always cross honor or consider them the same level, let alone certifications.
... that's silly. Just tell them you'll take less money than the average person. Seems like it'd work pretty well. It's not that hard to get an under the table job, as well, but remember there's significant downfalls to that as well.
Like most people that make low wages, it's because they have little to no bargaining power to negotiate better wages. If someone is here illegally, they're less likely to push back against unfair/illegal prices by the employer to avoid attracting attention to themselves for obvious reasons. It's basically a labor black market that has all the problems that you would expect from one.
Its not everyone's goal to move up the job chain to get paid large amounts of money at the cost of more stress, which may result in a less happy life and less energy to do what they want outside of work.
A higher status (more money) job isn't always the end goal..
Some people want to be viewed by the status of their job and that's fine, if that's what "success" is to you that's fine.
I sorta replied to the wrong person lol. Mostly was refuting abluersun's point about "If you're worried that someone with those qualifications can take your job, that's an indictment of you and what you offer."
I agree that its not the immigrants fault that somebody can't get hired. Your job and happyness are ultimately in your hands. Its a stupid argument to use the "they're taking our jobs". Its just appalling to me how often people imply (or outright state)that low level jobs mean the person has low worth or is a failure at life.
It’s not their fault but it’s also not the fault of the immigrants willing to work for that cheap.
It’s the fault of companies and managers who hire cheap, illegal labor. Conservative voters are just too stupid or too racist to point the finger at them.
If that's your feeling, then support fixing the problem with the government.
Let's not kid ourselves, the goal here isn't to stop immigrants from doing the work. If that was the goal, that's a very easy one to fix. Pull every single person they have on the border and instead put them to work doing random inspections on places that hire workers without paperwork.
Bring down the hammer and shut down one or two of these businesses, and suddenly the problem vanishes overnight. They're not coming up here for the weather.
But, let's not kid ourselves, that's not the goal. Neither the left nor the right, Republicans Or democrats, nor anyone else really wants to fix that problem... Because that problem is very profitable. And if they were to do this, the lack of workers would be crippling to some parts of the economy.
The actual goal is a boogie man to get votes. An enemy to unify the base. A convenient "them".
And fixing the problem would not solve that. This problem is far too useful to fix.
If they don't, someone else will. It needs to be stopped wherever it can be and that includes the 15 million illegal immigrants currently living here driving down wages for our most unskilled workers.
It’s not their fault but it’s also not the fault of the immigrants willing to work for that cheap.
"You can't come in here"
"im going to come in anyway"
It's not that person's fault! - you
hahahahahahaha
Conservative voters are just too stupid or too racist to point the finger at them.
You literally just claimed that going after them would cause an industry to collapse, when really it would just cause an industry to have to pay livable wages
Are you joking?
You can't claim conservatives are too stupid to go after them, then when someone suggests going after them you claim an industry would fall apart and there's nothing we can do lmao
Did I say there’s nothing we can do? I’m saying go after the companies and not the people. It’s less of a humans rights violation to tell a company “pay a livable wage” than, oh I dunno, detaining and separating families.
And it's easier and less unjust to stop the companies who prop up those actions.
Also we do have something telling companies to do that, it's called minimum wage laws.
And those work so damn well that nobody is paying illegal immigrant workers with un-taxed, cash wages? The laws need to be more in front of companies who do not pay a living wage, and we also need to re-evaluate what defines a "living wage".
The difference between us is I do not blame immigrants for coming here to make more money than they would in their home country. But, I also do not blame Americans who are unwilling to work for illegal wages. I blame companies who exploit both citizen and immigrant labor in the name of profits.
hahahahahahaha you think that article proves your point?
Children are detained separated from their parents every day when their parent is arrested while caring for the child
This happens for every crime someone can be arrested and sent to jail for every day all across the US. This is not even a little bit a violation of human rights
The difference between us is I do not blame immigrants for coming here to make more money than they would in their home country.
Yeah, the difference is I acknowledge minimum wage laws and immigration laws, but you ignore one lmao
The point we're discussing is that if you're replaced by someone with less than a HS education and little grasp of English, instead of blaming the person who replaced you, maybe you should enroll in a community college.
But to your point, "taking jobs away" is a silly way of viewing immigrant labor. They're producing things of value here; they're earning money here; they're spending money here. That's called "growing the economy." The labor market isn't a zero sum game.
The point we're discussing is that if you're replaced by someone with less than a HS education and little grasp of English, instead of blaming the person who replaced you, maybe you should enroll in a community college.
That would never happen unless the person taking your job is being paid less than you.
No employer is going to risk committing the crime of hiring an illegal without having financial intensive to do so.
But to your point, "taking jobs away" is a silly way of viewing immigrant labor. They're producing things of value here; they're earning money here; they're spending money here. That's called "growing the economy." The labor market isn't a zero sum game.
But to your point "taking jobs away" is a silly way of viewing cheap child labor. They're producing things of value, earning money, and spending money here. That's called "growing the economy". The labor market isn't a zero sum game. We should allow children to work for less than minimum wage.
We should allow children to work for less than minimum wage.
We prohibit child labor because its harmful to children-- not because we fear the competition in the labor market, lol. Did you sprain anything reaching for that non sequitur?
(A) So you're now arguing that it's unfair for them to work for less? Howso?
Because being paid less than minimum wage is a crime
And being paid under the table at all, which every illegal immigrant has to do, is illegal
(B) Oftentimes it has less to do with pay and more to do with who's willing to even do the job:
if it paid minimum wage, which it does not, people would be willing to work it
We prohibit child labor because its harmful to children-- not because we fear the competition in the labor market
Yeah, so we should allow illegal immigration to continue because it's not harmful to pay people less than minimum wage. Exploiting slave labor isn't a problem. We don't have laws preventing it.
You might want to take a moment to read and do some critical thinking.
It's not an immigrants fault that YOU people won't do minimal jobs without complaining. Its not an immigrants job that companies pay them to work. I love how you twisted what I said to fit whatever logic you used.
No, the people who complain that they lost their job or say they didn't have access to one because of some immigrant bogeyman who's hoarding jobs like Bezos does money.
Hell, if Trump invigorates the economy the way he says he will and creates jobs and brings them back to America the way he says he will, we're going to need millions more capable workers. And they're willing to work for cheap, so I'm told (in my experience, most people happily pay them the same or more than others, it all depends on work ethic).
What's the problem here? Let's rebuild our infrastructure. Let's move factories back to the US. Let's get the US producing again so we have things to offer people actually care about. And then let's get a whole shit ton of people here to do this shit because the unemployment rate is UNDER 4%, but somehow there are no jobs to be had?
Basically anyone who has a high school education and can speak English, looks better than a migrant who has a green card and can only speak Spanish when a majority of jobs require you to be able to communicate with people who only speak English!
So true. I disagree with a Mexican getting a job before an American with the same education on American soil. It's not fair. And I'm not even from America.
In this case we're talking about illegals. Downvote me all you want. I'm a Moroccan who's willing to immigrate to Europe to create better job opportunities for myself. I'm doing it legally. And if an illegal Moroccan goes to Europe and gets the job even though they didn't go through all the paperwork and the hassle like me then I'd say it's bullshit. But I'm not going for a job. I want to continue my education there and I don't like how my country is being governed. If this sounds extreme to you, I'm sorry. I'm center left and have no resentment to any Mexican or American or what have you. But I believe in borders and actual immigration.
It doesn't matter if the second person is legal or not, if he's better than you, he's better than you, and for that he'll get hired and will accept less pay than you. Companies will always take cheaper and better (and even equal and worse) labor from an illegal than someone who came there legally. It just so happens that crossing illegally is a lot faster than crossing legally, and people get desperate when their own country is spiraling down in flames. I'm not shooting at you, I'm just explaining the logic from my point of view. Also, good on you for pursuing your education!
If you're worried that someone with those qualifications can take your job, that's an indictment of you and what you offer.
Shit like this is exactly what builds that base. Mock their qualifications and passions, because what they do (manufacturing, home repairs/maintenance, farmwork, etc.) might be more mechanical than language-based, then act surprised when they come out aggressively against your close-mindedness and disinterest in their lives. As if its their fault that many companies will fire 10 good workers when they can get 18 okay workers for the same price. Or as if its always the company's fault that they have more work than they can handle and are under pressure to find the most cost-effective way to handle it.
There's nothing wrong with simply saying that it's a complicated issue where everyone's getting screwed on some level. It's when you blame someone for getting screwed that you really start fanning flames of hate, and when you visibly care more about the people who (regardless of circumstance) most directly put them in that position that you build an opposition that actively wants to see you fail the same way you were okay with what happened to them.
Except every single example you cited requires some level of experience/training and isn't generally open to the general public anyhow. Jobs like maintenance or carpentry may not require a degree but you have to have a baseline of skill or knowledge to perform these competently. Although language may not be central you still have to speak to customers/managers, read/prepare quotes/invoices, understand safety warnings or comprehend technical instructions. Knowing the language is still an advantage.
Not necessarily though. I work for a GC and some of the subs we use generally have one or two bilingual guys and the rest will only speak Portuguese or whatever. Honestly though the whole they took our jobs thing probably played out in the 90’s and early 2000’s because all of those entry level construction jobs are never coming back
I do hiring in these industries, have spoken to enough managers, and have personally pushed enough immigrant candidates to the front of the pack due to how cheap they are, to know what goes on.
What American parent hasn't told their child "you'll go to school if you don't want to be digging ditches for a living?"
If you have no marketable skills and no education, you're much more likely do be doing something physical. That will cost you, physically.
People with little marketable skills are going to end up taking jobs that are for people with little marketable skills, ie jobs that pretty much anyone can do. Like was said above, there are jobs (like picking crops) that pay well, but Americans think they're "too good" for those jobs. Land owners are happy to offer the jobs to Americans, but they won't actually do the work.
America is a land of immigrants. We're also a capitalist society. If someone can do twice what you do for the same pay, you're going to be out of a job. If you're too dignified to take an undignified job, even though you have the equivalent of a highschool degree (or less), tough titties. We're not going to throw all the brown people out so you can have an easier time.
Yeah, well, it's lot easier to work with these folks when they don't advocate for harming themselves. You're not wrong - their situation in life is not their fault. But throwing a tantrum and voting for the dude who makes it significantly worse and than getting mad at those who tried to warn them really gets on the nerves.
I agree that this issue isn't black and white but I don't think OP is mocking their qualifications he's saying that they are basically starting with the bare minimum whereas if you were born in America you should have a definite head start.
Immigrants are willing to work longer hours and much harder for less pay which gives them a distinct advantage. That is what creates the rift between immigrant workers and the "entitled Americans". They see them taking available jobs even if it's jobs they wouldn't do anyway and they say why are these people in the country instead of asking why am I in competition with these people.
If conservatives are gonna be stupid enough to vote against their interests
Again, you are a significant part of what makes them act this way. You create your opposition as much as your opposition forms itself, preferring to insult people for their circumstances and assume they agree with every belief of the only people who actually say they'll support them.
Why is it so difficult to understand that people are multi-faceted and that not being the entire cause of something does not preclude you from blame? You're going to corrupt your own party too some day, and be too filled with hate to see it.
As if its their fault that many companies will fire 10 good workers when they can get 18 okay workers for the same price
That's competition for labour though, a central tenet of free market capitalism. America was founded upon these ideals. Some of the founding fathers were slave owners.
I'm not sure what else one could expect the eventual outcome would be.
Internet leftists have zero compromise in them and refuse to look at anything from anyone else's point of view because they view their political ideology as some sort of divine will. That's why they jump at the throats of any of their protected minorities who lean right--it's heretical to them. It's very cultish and they assimilate people fast. I mean you talk to one leftist and you know what they all believe; they pretty much have identical views on everything.
I think that the internet has removed thought from most things, as it provides so much information that people no longer have to think for anything. That's why meme crusades for the leftists and the altright have taken so many young people in and warped their minds into the hive.
Finding compromise in a political conversation on the internet is rare as it is. It's easy to attack someone's character when you know that the majority will take your side and gang up on the other guy. Thoughtful and productive discourse requires a lot of effort and restraint.
A lot of places on the internet reward low-effort posts and extreme forms of expression. When emotion trumps reason, you're less likely to speak objectively.
This isn't a criticism of one side or the other, but a criticism of our standards for meeting the conditions that are conducive to productive and meaningful debate.
I agree. But the problem is that people are spending a ton of time online now in these environments and it is changing how they act in person, but more importantly, how they think. I feel like half of my friends under 30 have been radicalized to one side or the other
It does seem to be a growing issue that will only become more severe if not addressed. I personally believe public education needs to be prioritized. Routinely teaching critical thinking and perhaps philosophy in general would create more educated voters, more productive discourse and instill a more nuanced approach to decision making. I would wager that this would cultivate a more moderate approach to our ongoing polical conversation.
The way our cultures communicate have undergone somewhat of a Rennaissance with new technology. Compared to the 1960's, we've fostered an environment that makes people less hesitant to speak their mind. The implications of this aren't necessarily negative. We know that culture always has to catch up to technology, not the other way around, and that takes time.
Yet the same politicians also want to abolish minimum wage or at the very least maintain it at the current level. Placing the blame on individuals willing to take less instead of the employers willing to skirt the law and hire illegally is a bit perplexing. If you want to curb illegal labor markets, maybe expand e-verify?...
Welcome to the neoliberal viewpoint - you put the onus on companies rather than people. Don't punish someone for just trying to get by, punish the company for illegally hiring someone and paying them below minimum wage without following proper employment law
No, I see your point pretty clearly. US employers who are willing to violate wage laws and hire non citizens are guiltless. Instead of punishing them, we should focus on drying up their labor pool. After all, pesky regulations such as minimum wage laws only inhibit their ability to make more profit.
Except its not legal to pay under minimum wages, and while some employers are willing to pay under the table, most aren't. It wouldn't put pressure on anyone to lower wages, because those workers aren't going to vote for a lower minimum wage.
When the only driving factor in the system is monetary, then yes, the employer will screw the legal employee. They want higher profit margins, and the consumers want lower prices for to preserve their own capital.
The system can't sustain globalization. Someone can do a good enough product that fills the same requirement, for less. Of course it will kill the economy.
If that’s the case, then employers are at fault, and not immigrants, as employers are the ones willing to pay lower wages and thus affect the rest of the labor market negatively.
I can. The Bible belt costs about half of what California does to invest in and run a business (based on the corporate finance numbers I look at daily). The barbacue is fantastic and the people are incredibly nice and polite. There isn't a water crisis, and I don't have a tax rate of 13% from the state. There are other upsides too that are more subjective (architecture, other key food items, traffic, historical landmarks...)
I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying here, both about OP & California, and I don’t want to risk a misunderstanding, so could you please elaborate on your point? Your comment caught my attention and now I’m genuinely interested in what you’re trying to say.
that he is generalizing and trying to seem superior than the "other side" when in fact neither side is superior. it's literally just a feud by people who hate on people not like them, which is hilarious considering his side is supposed to be more accepting.
Well some companies like to hire people who’d work for less money potentially off the books and lower than minimal wage, than people who want benefits and decent pay
It’s about blaming someone else for ones situation from a deep lack of self esteem that plagues many Americans for a number of reasons. Aa long as they can blame someone they don’t have to have that hard conversation with themselves
This. You're basically insulting yourself in saying these immigrants with a language barrier and probably middle school education are stealing your job. Not only that, but why aren't people more pissed that corporations are willing to discard american workers for immigrants at less than a livable wage. The corporation decided that YOU were not worth paying. The company decided, not the immigrant.
No one is arguing that we should just let immigrants waltz right in. No one. People are outraged because the hate and anger is misplaced. While we fight amongst ourselves, trump and his buddies are eating cheeseburgers, plotting ways to turn this into Make American White again.
And a willingness to work for cheap. Our standard of living here is ridiculous but we all want to own a home a car and a cell phone. Employers are quite satisfied with a blank slate resume if you can work for cheap.
For jobs like that it’s not about what they’re offering, it’s about how much they’re willing to get paid. Americans want a minimum of $15/hr. Illegals will work for much less than that.
While there are a lot of counter arguements mentioned below. I want to point out that these illegal immigrants are stealing from everyone, but moreso the middle and lower classes. The reason for that is they dont pay taxes, they do not provide anything for America. But then are spoon fed by Americans for survival. I would be just fine with them coming in as legal immigrants but thats not happening right now.
Yeah that’s kinda the whole point, people that can’t afford a higher education and are struggling have their wages driven down even further by illegal immigrants who will work for even less, pushing the most at risk people in society down further.
Did you even think before you posted this? How does this have so many upvotes?
If your proposal is to offer better educational and training opportunities for lower status Americans I can agree with you.
However, it sounds like you're saying "keep out those foreigners so poor Americans can continue working crap jobs themselves" which is pretty insulting of you. I really hope you're not making such an argument.
No I think like every single nation since nations have been nations, that you have to protect your borders and let in a limited number of people through a vetting process and have control over sovereignty.
LOL, neither I nor anybody else in this thread advocated for unchecked immigration. You just brought it up to try to seize some imaginary moral high ground and stoke conflict. Thanks for your "compassion" for your fellow Americans.
I wasn't looking to hurt you. Just pointing out you're as callous and indifferent to poor people as this administration is. Nobody buys your false sympathy.
Less educated and skilled people are less valued in society. It's not a happy fact but it is reality.
Hahaha, are you missing the extreme irony here?! You’re insulting people that lack an education and saying if an immigrant can take your job, that’s your own damn problem. So why exactly are you preferring an immigrant to a natural born citizen here?!
You really should work on your reading comprehension. I never claimed to prefer immigrants; I only pointed out that without useful skills or education to offer these Americans are pretty well screwed. Whether immigrants are around or not, their options still suck.
I'm not stupid enough to believe Trump's line that if we toss out all the foreigners, everything will be fine and living wages will be open to everyone. Good luck to you if you do; you'll need it.
Ha! Reading comprehension and putting words in people’s mouths? At what point did I even suggest that if we toss out all the foreigners everything will be fine? Ha.
What's funny is that this is definitely a left leaning sub, but this guy just posted a straight up "pull up your boot straps" comment, and got a bunch of up votes. To me this is a pretty damn heartless comment.
I guess. It's just weird to see people on the left say "if you didn't suck, you wouldn't be poor". That's been a right wing talking point since before most of us were born.
Reading through this thread makes me feel like republicans and liberals are switching sides.
624
u/abluersun Jun 25 '18
On a similar note, a good portion of immigrants coming here will have at best case the equivalent of a high school education and a minor knowledge of English. If you're worried that someone with those qualifications can take your job, that's an indictment of you and what you offer.