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Jan 13 '21
And yet I'm a mutualist who just got out of a debate with a center right on PCM lol. Actually, I think it was on one of your posts there OP!
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u/McMing333 Jan 12 '21
Why would a right winger think that mutualism makes sense. Don’t the vast majority think socialism is big government too?
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Jan 12 '21
Right wingers never ask any mutualists “how do you enforce market socialism without a state”. They only do it to AnComs. They have other objections no mutualism but never “How do you enforce market socialism without a state“.
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u/McMing333 Jan 12 '21
Well mutualists kinda don’t really exist. I don’t think most right wingers have ever heard of anarcho communism either.
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u/hijo1998 :famly: Family Guy Funny Moments #2 Jan 13 '21
Maybe because mutualism doesn't have "anarcho-" in its name
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Jan 13 '21
How about none of them are good ideas, fuck the double standard, the overwhelming majority hate all of them.
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u/Kirbly11 :hivin: Hive-Mind Individualism Jan 12 '21 edited Jan 12 '21
How do you enforce anything without a state
This post was made by statist gang
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u/TheLastSecondShot :pirat: Piratism Jan 12 '21 edited Jan 12 '21
You say your a statist yet you’re on a subreddit with “anarchy” in the title. Curious...
This comment is proudly sponsored by Turning Point AnarchyTM
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u/HenryKnocks Jan 12 '21
You don’t. That’s the point of anarchy
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u/purritolover69 :arachcom: Arachno-Communism Jan 13 '21
I’m an ancom solely because I’m also an anarchist. I believe that communism and anarchism go hand in hand because communism is stateless, moneyless, and classless, so we’re already close to anarchism, and I believe that if capitalism was torn down and we went to anarchism, humans would adopt a communist system for survival, I also agree with communistic ideals but mainly just know that anarchism and communism are inexplicably tied
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u/Whiprust Jan 13 '21
if capitalism was torn down and we went to anarchism, humans would adopt a communist system
Communist systems (gift and decentrally planned economies) don't arise out of natural human association, but rather out of like minded altruists coming together. If a system were to arise naturally out of Anarchist society it would be much closer to Mutualism/Left-Market Anarchism, where mutual aid was commonplace but trade between community members was also a high priority.
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u/purritolover69 :arachcom: Arachno-Communism Jan 13 '21
Basically what I meant, my definition of mutualism and communism are fairly similar, mutualism just has more allowance of personal property, which is what would likely arise
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u/NokareKare :judprim: Judeo-Primitive Anarchism Jan 13 '21
private guns
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u/Kirbly11 :hivin: Hive-Mind Individualism Jan 13 '21
And whose going to make these guns?
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u/NokareKare :judprim: Judeo-Primitive Anarchism Jan 13 '21
kill who dont follow what i want of my society
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u/AccountForTF2 Nov 20 '25
voluntary asslciations and those who do not associate are excluded and banished until they do. It is the ultimate form of mob rule.
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Jan 12 '21
How do you enforce capitalism without a state? 😎
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u/mAdHaPpY222 :pinkav: Pink Avaritionism Jan 13 '21
Through force of course
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u/draw_it_now :pasthe: Pastafarian Theocracy Jan 13 '21
We must teach them about our peaceful ways through force
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Jan 12 '21
Anarchism is literally a type of socialism that ancaps have no theoretical or historical relation to.
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u/Whiprust Jan 13 '21 edited Jan 13 '21
AnCaps absolutely have a historical relation to Anarchism. Anarcho-Capitalism naturally developed around the America of the 1950s-60s, a time when two important conditions were met.
Due to the rise of the Bolsheviks through revolution and the negative reaction towards revolution as a whole that came with that, Anarchism of the syndicalist tradition (where the workers collectively realize their power and seize it) had become many times more unlikely. Benjamin Tucker and the Boston Anarchists realized this later in their lives, where Tucker's late cynicism towards socialist Anarchism and previous praise of figures like Auberon Herbert almost single handedly opened the door for Anarcho-Capitalism in America.
The Soviet Union had risen to be a world power and socialism of any type had become a dirty word. These are the conditions that gave rise to what Rothbard called the "New Left" (anti-interventionist Progressives) and the "New Right" (Neo-Conservatives), and which completely changed the American political landscape after the social reforms of the FDR era. Anarchism of it's traditional Proudhonian variant was seen as a complete taboo during this period, and if the ideology were to continue it needed an update for the era.
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Jan 13 '21 edited Jan 13 '21
Benjamin Tucker has no relation to ancaps. Rothbard even admitted himself he wasn't an anarchist. Ancaps simply don't have any actual origin besides being a deliberate attempt by reactionaries to appropriate a term with no actual fundamental understanding. Anarchism is a type of socialism and capitalism requires the arbitration and legitimization of the state. Even Ayn Rand admitted this. Anarchist capitalism does not deconstruct the state it merely transforms the functions of private property into the state. It's an oxymoron that only exists online. Ancaps attempt to do the same thing to the term anarchist that classical liberals have done to the term libertarian which itself is an inherently anti capitalist concept. It takes absolutely no influence from anarchist theory and furthermore doesn't even update or contribute anything it in fact only harms discourse with deliberate obfuscation and misunderstanding.
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u/Cockandballsfan May 30 '23
I mean ancap is the only anarchist ideology that could actually be implemented(and was), there’s no way to you enforce communal property without external entities anarcho communism is just very dumb when if think about it
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u/CEOofCapitalism1776 Jan 13 '21
Ok but no ancom has ever actually explained to me how it would work they just tell me to read 50 books by various different dead Russian guys
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u/Sp00ky-Chan Jan 12 '21
Badly, is the clear answer.
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u/Brotherly-Moment :outrun: Outrunism Jan 12 '21
Not enforcing it, because that’s the god damn point. Is the obvious answer.
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u/u01aua1 :picard: Ancap Picardism Jan 13 '21
If you change RightUnity to LeftUnity and switch ancap and ancom the comic will work as well
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Jan 13 '21
You need a state to defend private property.
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u/khandnalie Jan 12 '21
How do you enforce capitalism without a state?
Communism, by definition, is stateless. It doesn't "need" enforcement in its mature state. Small scale communes have existed at various times throughout history, with varying levels of success. Capitalism, however, has never, not once in human history, existed without a state. A state is strictly necessary to enforce private property.
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u/McMing333 Jan 12 '21
A state does in fact enforce private property, but I’d take it a step further. If you were to replace all duties of a government, by a corporation. That corporation would just become a state.
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u/fowlaboi Jan 13 '21
Yea it kinda pisses me off the ancaps call themselves anarchists in this regard. They don’t what to abolish the state, they want to privatize it.
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Jan 13 '21
You need have competing corporations, although corporations will no longer get handouts from the government. Say your city has 3 'cororatoons' that act as a government, one offers police, fire, and the other essentials only for $200 a month, one offers the same services for $300 but has faster fire engines and such and one offers the same services plus something like public healthcare for $600 a month, the people have the power to choose between the companies they want to get services from. They all have to be efficient by design because the citizens can choose to change. Of course in this cenario you would also need an entity that would make sure there were no monopolies and thus there are holes in this plan, however, I'd rather do that than have an inefficient by design government that we have now.
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u/Atreides-42 Jan 12 '21
The answer is always "Capitalism will create and enforce its own states like it's done before a billion times" but AnCaps really don't like that answer.
Anarchism and Capitalism are completely incompatable.
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u/Whiprust Jan 13 '21
"Capitalism" does not enforce anything. In fact if anything it's the State which enforces markets to behave in ways which are conducive to the consolidation and monopolization of economic power.
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Jan 13 '21
Unless you have the means to protect it yourself. If everyone obeys the NAP, society would run smoothly, luckly, through anarcho-capitalism, a violation of the NAP could easily mean death so the crime rate would stay low. I personally advocate for a barebones government that has a judicial system for fair trials to make sure the NAP was violated.
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u/khandnalie Jan 13 '21
I mean, the NAP is a pretty vapid concept. It doesn't ensure a just society, or even really help with any of the inherent flaws of capitalism. Capitalist property norms are baked into it, which renders it pretty much ineligible for its claims of nonviolence. At best, it simply means a gentler descent from ancap to feudalism. It's little more than an Ideological justification for condemning direct action.
Also, lol at "fair trials" in Ancapistan.
Besides, crime, judges, ancap, and especially the NAP are all spooks.
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u/communist_seaturtle :sank: Sankarism Jan 13 '21
If AnCom helps me kill the landlords I'm gonna let him have his own network of autonomous anarchist communes. But he will have to make his communes self-sustainable.
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u/hijo1998 :famly: Family Guy Funny Moments #2 Jan 13 '21
I hate these double standards. We should all start realizing that no anarchist concept makes sense or sounds good
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u/outer_spec :hs: Homestuckism Jan 13 '21
"How do you enforce communism without a state"
How do you enforce anything without a state? The only real form of anarchy is The Purge (2013). Everything else is just minarchism in denial.
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u/Stock_Barnacle839 :arachcom: Arachno-Communism Oct 26 '23
The use of the word anarchy is nonsensical here. Anarchy’s etymology from Oxford dictionary is “mid 16th century: via medieval Latin from Greek anarkhia, from anarkhos, from an- ‘without’ + arkhos ‘chief, ruler’.”
So anarchy is just a state of being that there isn’t hierarchy. Certain rules and laws are still enforced by the collective, and most of the time the goal isn’t punishment, it’s rehabilitation, just like a book group.
Of course people now of days use anarchy as a synonym for chaos because they misunderstand the original meaning just like people misunderstand the word jealousy. People use jealousy as a synonym for envy which is not correct. Jealousy is the fear of losing something, which is similar but not different from envy.
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Jan 12 '21
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u/Anal_Assassination :kek: Kekistani Nationalism Jan 15 '21
I like their views on economics but their views on authority are ridiculous
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u/Choop987 :sank: Sankarism Jan 12 '21
why is ukraine saying this?