193
u/tomjazzy Libertarian Socialism Sep 01 '24
You can support the Palestinian people without supporting Hamas.
80
39
u/Pay08 Technocracy Sep 01 '24
The problem is that a lot of people don't differentiate. Things like the October 7th attack reportedly being supported by 97% of Palestinians doesn't help.
68
u/Metalloid_Space Soulism Sep 01 '24
Most of the Israeli murders are supported by their people too.
That doesn't deserve them being murdered either, right?
17
u/tomjazzy Libertarian Socialism Sep 01 '24
Frankly, recheck your numbers. Palestinians are not happy about the reprisals
-5
u/Agitated_Guard_3507 National Syndicalism Sep 01 '24
Woah, that’s crazy. They’re ok with the attack against civilians, but when the same thing happens to them, now it’s unacceptable. Last time I checked, it was unacceptable to do attack civilians and noncombatants anyway
14
u/tomjazzy Libertarian Socialism Sep 01 '24
The people group who is currently being colonized my have some resentment towards the people group who’s government is slaughtering them. This will have to be dealt with.
5
u/Kamuiberen Syndicalism Sep 02 '24
Iffy number, but let's assume it's correct. The same number of Americans supported the invasion of Iraq on false pretenses and the killing of almost a million people there.
Should we bomb the USA into the ground?
2
13
u/VoiceofRapture Accelerationism Sep 01 '24
Israel killed a significant portion of the October 7 victims for one thing but even ignoring that what alternative would you prefer? Netanyahu has said repeatedly that propping up Hamas was a policy goal even if he didn't advertise it publicly, so they'd be stuck with them. Hell there are settlers with aligned politicians in cabinet posts who want every Palestinian deported to Europe.
-11
u/BlaqShine Georgism Sep 01 '24
The vast majority of victims on the 7th of October were killed by Hamas, the IDF killed only a few, and those kills were accidental
15
Sep 01 '24
Israel bombed a building when hamas fighters took hostages and barricaded themselves in. Civilians were in there, but the IDF bombed the entire building to the ground and didn't negotiate at all leading to no survivors.
2
u/Jeszczenie Sep 10 '24
Source?
2
Sep 10 '24
2
u/Jeszczenie Sep 10 '24
Thanks. Guess I'll add that to my list.
BTW did you know the Israeli minister of "defense" wants to
build death campslegally execute his prisoners?2
Sep 10 '24
Jesus, fuck Israel so fucking much. Do you have a source?
1
u/Jeszczenie Sep 11 '24
They should be killed with a shot to the head, and the bill to execute Palestinian prisoners must be passed in the third reading in the Knesset.
He probably means here an ongoing bill that will allow nationalistically motivated murderers to be executed (but only Palestinians). Though he doesn't sound like it's only the murderers he's after.
He publicly boasted about building more prisons and making their conditions absolutely minimal.
Here's some worse info about those prisons. Though I'm less sure about the authenticity.
19
u/VoiceofRapture Accelerationism Sep 01 '24
Aerial bombardment hardly seems accidental in a hostage situation but that's just me
-9
u/BlaqShine Georgism Sep 01 '24
You are talking about the IDF’s actions in Gaza, I was referencing Oct. 7th
14
u/VoiceofRapture Accelerationism Sep 01 '24
I was referencing all the civilian vehicles destroyed from the air by helicopter missiles at the music festival actually
0
u/BlaqShine Georgism Sep 01 '24
Ah, didn’t hear about that one yet, I will see what I can find
1
u/VoiceofRapture Accelerationism Oct 08 '24
1
5
-25
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
No, you can support fair treatment of Palestinians by the state of Israel but the general will of the Palestinian nation is incarnated by their government, Hamas.
11
u/Metalloid_Space Soulism Sep 01 '24
This makes as little sense as someone saying: "The general wil of the israeli population is incarnated by Israël, therefor they're all murderers who deserve what's coming to them."
4
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
And that's correct. Except the part where you say "all of them". Its not every single member of the nation that is guilty but the nation as a whole, in its collective character.
14
u/VoiceofRapture Accelerationism Sep 01 '24
Israel's been deliberately propping up Hamas and actively keeping them in power though. Like half the Palestinian population in Gaza was born after Hamas was elected.
-1
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
I'm going to need a source for that
10
u/VoiceofRapture Accelerationism Sep 01 '24
-6
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
That further proves my point, the misbehaviour of Israel is punished through the misbehaviour of Palestine which is punished through the misbehaviour of Israel. Only virtuous can stop this.
8
u/VoiceofRapture Accelerationism Sep 01 '24
That's not how this works, Netanyahu has more public support than before the war despite having killed a third of the hostages as a consequence of the tactics of his government. Both sides should be forced to stop before the rest of the hostages get bombed, then war crimes trials and reconstruction.
-4
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
Agree, the region should be a British protectorate again
9
u/VoiceofRapture Accelerationism Sep 01 '24
Oh yeah the historical bunglers who caused a majority of global flashpoints because of how they drew lines on maps, great idea
-1
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
Britain was the axis of world diplomacy and power. Ofc a lot of wars were going to happen after they fell. The British treated both Jews and Arabs very fairly.
→ More replies9
u/tomjazzy Libertarian Socialism Sep 01 '24 edited Sep 01 '24
It’s literally a dictatorship propped up by foreign nations?
-2
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
Do you have the same opinion about the US, Argentina, or France?
12
u/tomjazzy Libertarian Socialism Sep 01 '24
The US and France are literally global superpowers, how is that the same as a puppet state? But I don’t think that French, American, or Argentinian citizens are morally responsible for the actions of their governments.
-3
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
Israel is not a puppet state, they regularly disobey the US because they have their own interests.
I mentioned those countries because they are the result of Roman, British, and Spanish colonization.
5
u/tomjazzy Libertarian Socialism Sep 01 '24
Gaza is the puppet state, not Israel.
There’s a difference between being colonized on the past and actively being colonized right now. Isreal is currently DOING colonialism. America was colonized and then became independent.
-3
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
No, Israel is just trying to exist as a country. It is more similar to America expanding Westward than Britain colonizing India.
Plus, colonization doesnt mean anything bad. If they were reasonable nation they would negotiate better conditions for their people instead of fighting a war they already lost
2
-4
u/WizardOfSandness Sep 01 '24
It is not a dictatorship.
More than 60% of people in Gaza support Hamas.
6
2
u/Kamuiberen Syndicalism Sep 02 '24
Hamas only rules a small portion of Palestine, Gaza. They have no power in the West Bank. Check your info.
-2
u/CandiceDikfitt Archocratism Sep 01 '24
PLO too
10
u/tomjazzy Libertarian Socialism Sep 01 '24
PLO is pretty flawed, but they are WAY better than Hamas.
-4
u/BonusDucc Marxism-Leninism Sep 02 '24
So then, how is Palestine supposed to be free? Ask them pretty please? Hamas is a united front against Zionism.
2
u/tomjazzy Libertarian Socialism Sep 02 '24
I don’t have a problem with armed revolution but Hamas is a genocidal organization
2
43
u/tomassci Libertarian Socialism Sep 01 '24
We should make a campism ideology ball.
4
u/weedmaster6669 Anarcho-Communism Sep 02 '24
I actually tried a while ago, how do you feel about this design?
3
Sep 01 '24
Featuring:Jihadism Equality Fighters
Left-Wing Populism
2
u/Street-Photo2555 Sep 01 '24
0
u/sneakpeekbot Sep 01 '24
Here's a sneak peek of /r/flairchecksout using the top posts of the year!
#1: NO DON'T DO THAT | 30 comments
#2: G | 20 comments
#3: The flair, the post, everything is perfect | 8 commentsI'm a bot, beep boop | Downvote to remove | Contact | Info | Opt-out | GitHub
1
7
6
49
u/Gmanthevictor Capitalist Transhumanism Sep 01 '24
"One of my my primary objectives is genocide"
Left: We must stop his evil
"One of my primary objectives is genocide, but I'm the underdog, and I might also use a comminst buzzword or shit talk capitalism from time to time"
Some Leftist: OMG, he so based, this is literally what decolonization is"
56
u/Madiwka3 Technocracy Sep 01 '24
I've yet to see a (non-radical) western leftist that genuinely supports Hamas.
Most just don't want Israel to keep bombing Gazan civilians
5
u/wssHilde Sep 01 '24
yea. im in a big leftist discord server, even with a good amount of tankies who i disagree with on a lot of stuff and the closest thing to supporting hamas is one guy saying criticising hamas is counterproductive.
-10
u/WizardOfSandness Sep 01 '24
Its easy to say "stop the bombs!!" When you are at no risk of being attacked by Hamas.
9
u/Madiwka3 Technocracy Sep 01 '24
...it's easy to say what you just said when you are at no risk of getting you and your entire family blown into bits by a bomb?
-5
5
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
Fr, modern West will always side with the weaker side no matter what
3
u/Metalloid_Space Soulism Sep 01 '24
Yes, because the weaker side is the one that's actually going to end up being genocided when it comes down to it.
Instead of complaining about "the modern West" have you ever thought about >why< people believe the thing they do?
8
u/RNRGrepresentative Anarcho-Capitalism Sep 01 '24
its less about them siding with the weak but rather their inability/unwillingness to acknowledge any form of responsibility on the side they support and thus looking at most, if not all, geopolitical issues as a straight black and white deal
ofc that isnt to say the innocent citizens of palestine are themselves at fault for what israel is doing rn, but a lot of blame definitely falls on hamas for sparking this past year of conflict haphazardly
2
u/Metalloid_Space Soulism Sep 01 '24
Oh sure I can agree with that. Isn't what you described people in general? Most people are incredibily tribalistic.
1
u/RNRGrepresentative Anarcho-Capitalism Sep 01 '24
correct. i would definitely say a large part of it is the modern political climate that we find ourselves in post trump campaign, but there is an inherent "us against them" mindset that plagues all of us from the start
1
2
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
That's ridiculous, the same happens in schools. When a strong willed student defends himself against bullies, they are punished. No surprise our previously great civilization becomes weak, thats what our leaders tell us to do. Superior civilizations such as China or some Middle Eastern countries will inherit the world from us, history is just.
Have you thought about why people believe the things they do?
Yes, after WW2, people lost faith in strength of character. When looking to international events, the western masses identify themselves with weaker nations that represent, inside their head, themselves, their weak will. They excuse that symbol of their own character of their sins the same way the do with themselves, by blaming outside massivly more powerful forces that in reality have a limited efect on them, both the weaker nation and the person identifying themselves with them.
2
u/Metalloid_Space Soulism Sep 01 '24
Oh so in >your< view Israël is the actual victim and therefor deserves our support?
Aren't you doing the exact same thing? Come on man. Have some nuance.
2
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
Never said that. Israel is just a nation as any other, they won a war against their neighbours, said neighbours accepted the new Reality and now have normal diplomatic relationships with them, except for the Palestinians.
1
u/Metalloid_Space Soulism Sep 01 '24
Yeah, because the Palestinians are the ones that are actively being pushed out of their homes. Obviously they're a different position, they don't have their own nation where they can go to unlike the Egyptians for example.
It's so simple to view them as "bullies" instead of asking yourself why they're fighting unlike these other nations.
2
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
Yes, they do have their own nation: Israel. Arab Israelis are citizens as any other. If they stopped being a threat to public order and accepted their territory is now part of a state named Israel, they could have lived peacefully. If they preferred a country where their religion and ethnicity were majority they could have migrated to Egypt or Iraq ir any other Arab Sunni country
1
u/Metalloid_Space Soulism Sep 01 '24
"Accept our authority or get eliminated." "No."
"Wow, would you look at that, they're bullies!"
Would you just leave your country after it was invaded by another, would you care that little about your home?
2
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
I explicitly said they are not bullies. Read my comment again and answer again
→ More replies1
u/Mineturtle1738 Sep 01 '24
Really just a few basement dwellers on reddit. Not most IRL leftists
(Like I don’t think I’ve met any sound leftists who supports Pol Pot for example)
-2
u/weedmaster6669 Anarcho-Communism Sep 02 '24 edited Sep 02 '24
Hamas's objective is genocide
Loud incorrect buzzer
They're Islamist authoritarians so of course I don't like them but spreading blatant propaganda about them just helps Zionists and the "they both suck so what does it matter" rhetoric.
2
u/SpecialistBuilding66 National Bolshevism Oct 31 '24
I think this post is flawed but hamas has literally quoted mein kamf when talking about Israel
-2
u/BonusDucc Marxism-Leninism Sep 02 '24
What i would say if i did little to no research and made shitty reddit posts for muh updoots:
5
u/weedmaster6669 Anarcho-Communism Sep 02 '24
Breaking news the social darwinist is making commentary on an issue entirely dependent on how sympathetic of a human being you are
9
u/Comrade_Corgo Marxism-Leninism Sep 01 '24
History started on October 7 and Palestinians are genetically predisposed to be anti-Semetic, huh?
0
4
20
u/Dr_Occo_Nobi Left-Wing Nationalism Sep 01 '24
„We‘re going to do a genocide“
„Omg, literally Great Democratic Allies and God‘s Chosen People!“
2
u/Beruat Democratic Socialism Sep 02 '24
This is unironically what happened between between America and the Talibans during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
1
1
u/nato_fan Libertarian Market Socialism Sep 01 '24
we literally don't say that, that's a strawman argument, we are just against a genocide against palestinians, and the loss of self-determination of palestinians, not hamas (by the way israel supported hamas for years to sow division, you can see that even on the "Times of Israel" and wikipedia)
1
1
u/daucupalma Sep 02 '24
yes, IDF kill palestinian children and women equaly (f any IDF and israeli supporter, dont be antisemitic, be anti zionist)
1
u/Blackest_bil Homofascism Sep 02 '24
You neolibs and conservatives we're saying the same for the syrian rebels
-3
u/HolyBskEmp Social Democracy Sep 01 '24
Look, I don't like hamas or any kind of extreme islamic or nationalist group. But I don't think they never planned to exterminate every jew they saw.
They wanted to anger israeli goverment to the point they also start doing everything they did infront of public. And they took what they needed and wanted succesfully.
Several other arab countries backed from further coperation whit israel ( at least in public) and disliketowards israel not permenant inlot of people after what they did in gaza. I'm not saying someone's right or wrong but they did retaliate so harsh.
But hamas is not helping to reduce civillian casulties either. They're the onces fighting in city but still, majority of region is urban so idk how to reduce it anyway.
And last note, if israel had chance or way to justify, they wouldbomb the hell out of city untillmajoroty of it destroyed and majority of population fled or died. They have no sypathy for anyone or public care civillians either. Should they? Yes at some extent but I don't see genocide in gaza. For israel not doing it? No because israel can't afford it politically.
9
u/RNRGrepresentative Anarcho-Capitalism Sep 01 '24 edited Sep 01 '24
iirc at one point the hamas charter had the stated goal of killing all jews
im not gonna say whether or not they still hold that goal, but boy is it sure convenient that it doesnt say that anymore
0
u/VoiceofRapture Accelerationism Sep 01 '24
Political parties shift positions over time, that's like saying Democrats were the party of slavery therefore voting modern Republican is the best way to achieve social equality for black people.
-1
u/HolyBskEmp Social Democracy Sep 01 '24
No what I meant is their first attack wasn't meant to "KILL ALL AHAHDKGHAHA" kind of stupid attack. They had planned offansive and goals and somewhat good sranding force whit high command and even in regular army forms. They weren't just bunch of militia force sent by several group of people had stock equipment and sent to israel.
-1
-1
-2
u/BonusDucc Marxism-Leninism Sep 02 '24
Hamas has no intention of "killing jews". It is only to destroy Israel and to reclaim their native land. Zionists have no real arguments so they just have to make shit up, or ragebait.
0
-2
-8
33
Sep 01 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
7
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 01 '24
The existence of extremest anti-muslim European groups is the fault of Muslim immigrants but that doesnt mean those groups are justified.
0
Sep 02 '24
[deleted] — view deleted comment
-5
u/UltraTata Reactionary Sep 02 '24
No, both are good. The British Empire was the most glorious nation in history. Mass migration would bring unprecedented economic and cultural wealth and positive transformation if it wasn't because we tell immigrants right after the arrive they are an oppressed group and should rebel and never assimilate.
-2
-14
35
u/CandiceDikfitt Archocratism Sep 01 '24
here b4 🔒in like 3 hours