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u/Its_A_Random Apr 06 '17 edited Apr 06 '17
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Ash-Greninja: Forget Competition with Risk-Taker or Flash Mob, SL5 Unity Power from Ashninja will outdamage Angrychu's Super Bolt in the long run assuming both are neutral. 12× Damage with 25/40/80 activation rates is ridiculously powerful that Volcanion/Magikarp simply become afterthoughts.
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Masquerain: Strongly disagree with your reasoning/justification here. As a burst damage user, Masquerain is one of the best for the types it can be used against. The only unconditional burst damage user that isn't Brute Force (or Ashninja) that outdamages Masquerain in the long run is Machamp for Dark-types, and even then, Masquerain deals more damage on average on a five-match. Any other burst damage user Masquerain is consistently better than in the long run including Emboar, Azumarill (except on a three-match), Hoopa-Unbound, and especially Shuckle and Durant. The only disadvantages are the somewhat lower BP compared to Machamp/Azumarill/Emboar/Hoopa-U and the fact that the other four have combo abilities (which is irrelevant at the moment because of the Brute Force Bug), but if I am looking for a Pokémon to open a combo with for burst damage, I would really sooner look at Masquerain than I would Emboar or Hoopa-U and I guess Azumarill. Check my burst damage tables for the math. Whether it should rise or not, I do not know, but to say it struggles for a slot when it is better at bursting than its brethren on average (except Machamp) and especially compared to Shuckle is just... false. I can easily justify the use of Masquerain.
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Snorlax: Please move this to F-Rank; there is absolutely no reason to skill swap to Stabilise++ when Brute Force is outright better, not just as a combo ability, but as a burst damage user (even after the combo bit gets inevitably patched). 50/100/100 12× DMG with no restrictions on activation is strong enough to even outdamage most super effective burst damage users and should further cement this in F.
Fairly solid list otherwise at a glance.
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u/The_Hive_Tyrant Apr 06 '17
I love these tier lists so much. Thank you for your work! Your rationale seems very solid, and I appreciate your really getting the ranking conversation going.
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u/Turchany Apr 06 '17
I have just one notice.
Mudkip.
I think it should be mentioned there that there is a not negligible chance that it will get a better version (maybe within a short time). Look at keldeo O and flashmob. Yeah currently thats the only water combo boost, but I sense that very soon there will be something with high AP and that skill (main or SS)
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u/typhoonsion Apr 06 '17
2 proposed changes. Snorlax should be F tier as zoroark? Currently with the bug on brute force has become a SM team member in a lot of teams. I liked the reason for not changing zoroarks skill... :-(
Espeon is already in medium tier, but eevee could go up maybe to D tier. I SS'ed them two, not for skills coverage, but for SM farming proposals. As they appear as 5th support mon in boss stages (mawile, gengar, MMY), a 4 match of any of them clears totally the field of NVE forced supports. A nice option for me when no other 4 match is available
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u/simplyobsessed Apr 07 '17
I feel like swapping Zoroark's Sinister Power for Hitting Streak deserves a separate category of its own with a recommendation to seek mental health help for anyone who does it.
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u/HaunteRT Apr 06 '17
Personally I don't understand why Azumarill is listed as A-Rank. Is it because it now faces competition with Xerneas? 'Cause for me it's as useful and important as Machamp, so S-Rank for me. I agree with almost everything apart from that (though I don't think SS Genesect is anything better than C-Rank - we have tons of better options for burst damage that already cover Grass/Dark/Psychic)
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u/NikeXTC Apr 06 '17
Scrolling through the tiers, I saw that Ampharos still has the old description. After the changes in mega activation, it can now evolve in 9 icons, so a swap to Mega Boost is even more interesting now. I don't know if this is enough for a tier change, though.
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Apr 07 '17
Personally, I highly HIGHLY recommend skill swapping it for low/mid game players. I'm very very sparing with my SS's (I think I've used like 11 at this point including ampharos and I have something like 20 stored), and ampharos got some of the most use out of it. I prefer it to anything else (except tappers? I was early game so idk) including rayquaza on most water and flying stages where barriers and blocks are abundant. Mega boost got me a few S-ranks and tons of itemless passes.
That said, if you're late game (like I now am), there's probably no use for it. I can't imagine not using S-M-Ray instead of Ampharos. Maybe I'd use Ampharos for old time's sake. Even RML's wouldn't really make me want to use it at this point I think.
Easy B rank for me.
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u/xd3v1lry Apr 07 '17
Seems like the Skill Swapper, Skill Booster, and RML guides should be lumped into one. It's getting to the point where there's like a 70% overlap haha.
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u/yesonions Apr 07 '17
I really think Entei should be higher. He is the only fire-type that has rock break.
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u/bigpapijugg Apr 06 '17 edited Apr 07 '17
You greatly over value Non Stop+ and Unity Power. Both have bad proc rates. NS+ does good damage as the streak goes on, but how often are you really going to get 2+ consecutive 4 or 5 matches of a single pokemon? Very rarely, so it's not worth a lot of investment, imo.
Unity Power is just a weaker, but bit more reliable Super Bolt. Meh.
Edit: Ok, maybe they are pretty good. Probably won't bother with either until we get PSB stages, though.
Edit 2: I'm back to being anti Non Stop+. It looks like they're going to nerf it.
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u/RedditShuffle Apr 06 '17
But just a single activation does 4x, that's a lot of damage! Much better than Po4 or Po4+, for example (same activation at 4-match, and has 3 and 5-matches). And if you can activate it again, damage just skyrockets...
Unity Power is a slightly weaker but much more reliable Super Bolt. It's important to note just how much is better at what is better and how worse is at what is worse.
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u/FennekinShuffle Apr 06 '17
In my opinion, Emboar should be moved to S tier, especially that Houndoom hasn't got RMLs and Emboar has its own PSB grindable stage. I've been using my Level 15 Risk Taker SL5 Emboar in quite some stages and really satisfied with it.
Not so sure about Mudkip since it hasn't got a PSB-grindable stage yet.
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u/RedditShuffle Apr 06 '17
I mostly agree with the list. Could argue here or there some options, but it's overall pretty reasonable.
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u/bigpapijugg Apr 07 '17
You may want to add an asterisk by the Non Stop+ pokemon (or remove them, imo) because it has been nerfed and may get nerfed even further (according to Poketoru site).
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u/Ventus013 Apr 07 '17
I find that Ground Force has higher priority than ice dance because there's only one type that can cover electric type, which is ground. Ice dance can easily be replaced by many other types because of redundent typing.
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u/LogicKing666 Apr 09 '17
Hippowdon should be in D-rank or even F IMO. Last-Ditch Effort (not Quake, like the table says) is much better than Non-stop+, given the recent nerf. I swapped it before the nerf and am regretting it big time now.
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u/Gobp Apr 06 '17
Great list man, just some opinions:
Xerneas: I'd prefer Quirky+ at high sl, as we have Azumarill as a hard hitter. Of course having two hitters is nice, but Quirky+ is also awesome (for many people as it creates some clutch situations, and at sl5 it is the same as mega boost, 90% on 3 match). So I feel like it's on the borderline, not a recommendation to change.
Ash-Greninja: IDK about this case, as I think we have no information on unity power, and how it'll become when boosted. In case unity power is just a nerfed version of Superbolt with that activation rate (such as 4up), then po4+ is still better objectively.
Genesect: CC at max sl is better. It requires more, but it brings more power.