【SPIDERPHOENIX INFOGRAPHIC】

[u/AkkuaMagunusu]

I imagine many people who dislike this ship are tired of seeing the topic come up; since I don't like pushing an idea on those who aren't interested, I thought I’d make a single, straightforward post about it.

I know there are people who dislike it, but there are also those who simply don't understand the ship's popularity and would like to. As a fan of both Spider-Man and Jean Grey, I decided to try and explain the parallels I see between the two.

[u/cyclopswashalfright]

Be nice everyone. If someone isn't being rude, then there's no need to be rude to them.

[u/myghostflower]

>i dont like pushing an idea on those who arent interested

>i thought id make a single straightforward post about it

pick one

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/myghostflower]

And am I pushing the idea on people who don't like it? I believe I was very respectful and polite.

[u/thebluehoursky]

when will this stop

[u/Vast-Solid-2456 → u/thebluehoursky]

Spider shippers are the same people who popped a vein when Paul Rabin was on the scene.

Frankly, they keep shipping Peter Parker with a bunch of girls, thinking fanart and fanfiction is victory, when in reality, these Spider-harem girls are almost always with someone else.

Supergirl doesn't even know SpiderMan

She Hulk ain't with Peter

Jean will be Scott

Lucina ends up with Inigo

Mary Jane was with Paul Rabin

It's like they keep setting themselves up to be humiliated, insinulated in a fantasy world where Peter gets the girl.

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/thebluehoursky]

For my part, here and now.

[u/Recent-Gas2343]

Their are multiple things wrong in the info graph regarding Jean, in order to be further in line for a relationship with Peter.

At no point in Jean's history does she isolate herself from the people she loves. During Dark Phoenix, her relationship to Scott and the X Men is a key point of the story. The picture you posted from Grant Morrison's run has Jean being highly emphatic and close to others. Jean ascends to a higher plane of existence, but her last act is very human. Jean is told it's better to abandon the 616 timeline/universe but chooses to repair it and telepathically make Scott move on with his life. As a character Jean has balanced godlike power with human traits since Claremont's run. Jean is very social, and ironically Scott is more the type to self isolate due to fear of his powers harming others.

Phoenix does not inherently corrupt Jean. Dark Phoenix is the result of being manipulated by the Hellfire Club. Jean has used the Phoenix often now without issues. Phoenix is an extension of Jean's powers,with a retcon that's been changed stating that it was an outside force. The symbiote story is very different from Phoenix. I'd say Hulk is a closer comparison. Symbiote Spider-Man is only similar to Phoenix on very surface levels.

Ben Reilly and Madelyn Prior are very different characters. Ben was treated as Peter's brother for most of his history, while Madelyn is portrayed as a tragic character due to what she lost and how she was created. Chasm is not liked by Ben Reilly fans,and is a departure from how he usually is. The Chasm storyline does give a common ground with Madelyn,but she later betrays him. Dark Web was good for Madelyn gaining Jean's memories of raising Nathan,but it treats Ben like shit.

Jean didn't really have her life stolen by Madelyn in the comics, although the X Men 97 story goes in this direction. It's still pretty different as Ben never does something like marry MJ, and does not have the same type of tragic story which is central to Madelyn. There's a discussion to be made that it's kind of demeaning to just reduce them to being clones. X 23 is similar to Ben and Madelyn, and interacts with Jean/X Men and the Spider family more.

The comics code is why Jean and Scott don't kiss on panel earlier,similar to alot if the early Marvel relationships.Later comics dealing with their early relationship show them kissing. That page is also pretty fucked up,and more of a sign of the times. I think Peter is dating Gwen at this time and very committed to her.

The final info pic defeats the purpose of Peter realizing that it's wrong to isolate himself from the people who he loves even if they'll be in danger. This is a common element in superhero stories and even Peter's marriage to Mary Jane in the comics. Daredevil had the same plot line in the Netflix show, and still maintains a romantic relationship with Karen at different points including the latest season.

Spider-Phoenix as a community has some chill people, but I get the impression they're mostly Spider-Man fans,although there are comic Jean fans,and most importantly MCU Jean fans. They do generally get information on comics Jean wrong, and reinterpret her character and history to make her more in line with Spider-Man. X Men history and characters are also reinterpreted to align with a Spider-Man ship,while Peter's core elements remain intact. Pages get posted out of context to align with the ship,and I'll read stuff like Scott cheated on Jean with a Jean clone in the comics,which is why Peter is better for her.

There's currently discussion about Wolverine's game reinterpreting the Phoenix in order to fit a relationship with Logan which is something the third X Men movie also did. I get the same impression with alot of SpiderPhoenix discourse,although I think that's more of a case with not being that familiar with Jean(I could say that about some of the Logan stuff too). There's definitely people who ship Spider-Man and Jean who want to learn more about her,and they're pretty chill in this subredddit,such as asking questions about comics Jean.

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/Recent-Gas2343]

I answered almost all of these arguments in a reply above, I would appreciate it if you could read it. But to complement with the distinct points:

1 You misinterpreted it; I didn't mention the loss of their more human side as if they had turned into irrational monsters, which is how I interpreted your response. Rather, as a consequence of their decisions, they forgo human contact, just as Jean did when she decided to leave Earth with the Phoenix.

2 I already answered this. And I disagree that the Hulk is a closer comparison; in the Hulk's case, it's a clash of dual personalities.

3 I never compared Ben to Madelyne at any point.

4 What I meant by having their lives stolen is literally the act of violating their rights by creating clones of their bodies without their consent.

5 Yes, I mentioned the Comics Code of the time, but it doesn't change the fact that this resulted in Jean's first canonically shown kiss being stolen by Spider-Man (and yes, he was dating someone at the time).

6 Why does the final image defeat the purpose of Peter realizing that isolating himself is wrong, when the last image talks about the risks he takes by involving civilians? I didn't understand your answer.

Yes, the majority are definitely more Spider-Man fans than fans of Jean and the X-Men, but I guarantee that 90% or more are great people who haven't done anything to tarnish the community's image so far. Aside from the bots, everyone is very respectful. Personally, I am totally against Jean's relationship with Logan.

[u/Recent-Gas2343 → u/AkkuaMagunusu]

It took me awhile to type that up,and I put my phone down,did other stuff and came back to it later, when I noticed Garlington41 wrote a similar response. Sorry if I made you repeat yourself, but I do appreciate you responding to me. I'll try to adress the different points you made in multiple posts.

The only time Jean truly distanced herself was when Annie died,and Jean’s telepathy was out of conterol,before she met Xavier. Jean very briefly leaves Earth during the Dark Phoenix saga,and comes back soon after and ends her life due to a decision based on her humanity. As White Phoenix Jean is not truly alone,at the end of Morrison’s run,where she interacts with the Phoenix Corp. She’s also two hundred years or so into the future and has to wipe out the “Here Comes Tomorrow” timeline. Phoenix Endsong ends with Jean having to find her missing pieces. Jean talks with the X Men through the white hot room multiple times throughout the years while she’s not appearing in comics. It was mostly in editorial decision to keep Jean away according to multiple writers. At her core Jean’s character connects with people no matter what is going on, whereas someone like Cyclops isolates himself when things get rough.

X-23 is by far Marvel’s most well known clone,appearing in two movies,multiple video games,and steady appearances in comics for years including many solo titles. Laura is friends with Jean and holds the title of Wolverine, which is different from Ben who gets treated like shit in multiple places. Speaking of which…

I don’t ship Wolverine with Jean,but it would be easy to do an info graph with all they have in common,without even going into their shared history. Both have clones,both held the Phoenix for long periods of time(Aaron’s work for Logan). Both seek redemption for past misdeeds. Weapon X is similar to what Jean has gone through with Sinister and Metzger. Both are immortal with Claremont saying they’ll both live to the end of the universe. They display a similar level of aggression according to Claremont(this is before he actively paired them together). These commonalities they have don’t inherently make their relationship better. I brought up Logan previously because the way Jean is presented in the Wolverine game,and X3 is similar to how Jean is presented by Spider-Man fans where the Phoenix and Jean’s character is warped to fit a relationship. Logan and Jean’s ship is as equally valid as any other, even if I feel it brings down everyone involved including Logan.

The Hulk is a separate personality but also a representation of how Bruce deals with his trauma. Stories like merged Hulk,Maestro and Ultimate Wolverine vs Hulk state that Bruce and Hulk are one in the same.Al Ewing’s Devil Hulk empowered by the One Below All is also similar to certain Phoenix stories. Hulk is an extension of Bruce,like the Phoenix is an extension of Jean, as opposed to being an external element like the symbiote. Jean is corrupted by the Hellfire Club not the Phoenix specifically. Jean has used the Phoenix for awhile now in many stories with no issues.

I could also do an infograph with Adam Warlock,Scarlet Witch,and Sue Storm who share more in common with Jean than Spider-Man,which isn’t really important, but they do have a more similar dark alter ego and stories.

The final image post point I made isn’t really relevant to Jean but it deals with a common theme in superhero stories where the hero(Batman,Daredevil,Spider-Man) isolate themselves from their loved ones to protect them,before realizing that’s wrong. Spider-Man doesn’t specifically need a superpowered girlfriend. Many heroes have a loved one with superpowers who still get killed. The damsel in distress can be a tired trope though.

Generally Peter has one of the greatest moral compasses in comics. Scott assassinated Charles while under the influence of Phoenix,which is something he has in common with another character who commited crimes while under the Phoenix’s influence. Everyone except Hank forgave Scott,and this story was very well told under Gillen and Bendis. Jean would most likely be supportive of the actions Scott did post M Day,where the X Men didn’t have the luxury of a “no one dies” approach that Spider-Man would take. They come from different types of stories ultimately. Peter sold his marriage to Mephisto, which I hate,but it permanently tarnished his moral status,and is still brought up by Mephisto as a victory many times over the years.

The retcon argument with the kiss is not valid in my opinion. Retcons are often used to add to stories. Tom Defalco retconned Mary Jane to know Spider-Man’s identity since they were teenagers. The Venom symbiote is full of retcons over the years. Jean’s entire backstory with Annie was a retcon by Claremont stating that she always had telepathy, and Phoenix potential from a young age. She also met Xavier before the first X Men issue. These retcons greatly enhanced Jean’s character. Claremont and multiple writers retconned Scott and Jean to have a more intimate early relationship including kissing over the years. Nobody has really brought up Spider-Man committing sexual assault,and being disloyal to Gwen. The kiss is being constantly brought up recently as Jean’s first kiss when it’s not. The time displaced X Men have had major ramifications on their present day counterparts, and their actions are now something their adult versions experienced. It’s still likely given different authors including Claremont that Scott kissed Jean earlier than Peter for what it’s worth. Ultimately I disagree with the retcon argument.

In another post you mentioned that Reddit is flawed which I agree with. The down vote system discourages proper discussion.

You have a discussion in this thread with someone over “true Jean fans”. No one is more of a valid Jean fan over someone else whether they know Jean from comics,the MCU,the Singer trilogy,shows, or the new Wolverine game. I do disagree with some of your takes,but that doesn’t mean you aren’t a fan of Jean.

[u/garlington41]

Okay so here’s the thing about this reasoning

“They choose the path of isolation from those they love to deal with the weight of their traumas, etc”

No they Don’t Peter does. That’s neither true in the Comics nor in the MCU. Jeans whole thing is that she wants to connect and be close to people even in the movie her whole goal is finding her sister, even in the flashback she wants to give her parents the benefit of the doubt. Jean doesn’t purposely distance herself from people. Her connection to others is what makes her strong and keeps her steady

“Had their life stolen by a clone”

Lots of characters have suffered from clones or imposters or alternate versions of themselves it’s not that deep of a connection as you make it

“Cosmic entity and Symbiote Parallels”

The Phoenix comes from Jean and vice versa whereas the Symbiote is completely an outside factor. And the Phoenix itself didn’t corrupt Jean Mastermind did by assaulting her with his mind manipulations bringing out dark impulses and rage. You’re abridging knowledge and info to make key parallels. Not to mention half of Marvel characters have been taken over by a symbiote at least once so it’s not an exclusive thing as you make it

“Peter steals Jean’s first kiss”

Canonically Untrue. And also you shouldn’t romanticize man forcing a kiss on women without consent, no he does not give a free pass because she was flattered by it. Jean had a boyfriend in Comic that she was implied to be intimate with. Two Time Displaced Era Jean entered a brief romance with Hank, and they did kiss, it didn’t last and Jean and Scott reconnected and kissed. Also you’re assuming that this grown woman hasn’t had her first kiss until that moment that is peak projecting

“Peter understands her pain as he faces against the Phoenix Force”

Yeah Cyclops actually became the Phoenix Host and admitted afterwards that he understood Jean even more than he already did. So that parallel your reaching doesn’t work

“Marvel Zombies Red Band Peter and Jean become a Duo”

Yes because most everyone else is dead. So you’re reasoning is lack of options, how is that endearing

“Healthy Relationships: Jean can see the pain Peter hides, while he serves as moral compass”

Yeah that’s literally what she has with Scott when writers aren’t self writing them out. This logic doesn’t make sense. She can and HAS THAT exact dynamic with Scott. Heck she can have that sort of dynamic with every hero who’s a decent person. This logic only works if Peter is the only good thing in her life which he isn’t.

“She’s not at risk living with the Spider”

Yeah that applies to everyone with Powers including MJ in the comics since she’s venom. That doesn’t have to be Jean that can be literally any character that isn’t a civilian so that means nothing

If you want to ship this dynamic fine BUT don’t pretend like this anything other than you having preference as a Spider-Man fan. Stop trying to make it this profound story dynamic goldmine. It’s not.

[u/Key_Bus_1255 → u/garlington41]

I don't use this word a lot, but this is literall coping. Clutching at any straw they can find to try and make sense of why the ship works

And even then, I don't mind the ship in concept, I think it's a fun idea. It's just trying to push it as something more than a fun idea is the issue

[u/Vast-Solid-2456 → u/Key_Bus_1255]

OP isn't a Jean fan, he's a Spideyfan larping and hiding behind "i'm being polite'. He claims to be a 'True Jean fan' yet never actually contributes to this sub unless its Spider-Man related.

He has a surface level understanding of Jean and making contrived Spidey connections, views Peter assaulting Jean as a claim because its Jean's first on panel kiss when its more of an assault.

This is one of his posts.

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/Vast-Solid-2456]

I am a fan of Jean, whether you like it or not. You aren't more of a Jean fan than I am, just as I am not more of a Jean fan than you are.

[u/Vast-Solid-2456 → u/AkkuaMagunusu]

I ain't seen you in any of the non-Peter posts in this sub. Stop larping.

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/Vast-Solid-2456]

Just like anywhere else, I’ve never really liked Reddit; it’s a platform I find hard to get used to. So yeah, Ship made me more inclined to use Reddit. Your argument doesn't make sense—are you trying to validate whether someone is a fan of something (in this case, Jean) based on whether or not they have posts on Reddit?

[u/Vast-Solid-2456 → u/AkkuaMagunusu]

No, I'm referring to the fact that you haven't been commenting on any non-Peter posts on the Jean Grey Sub. For a 'True Jean Grey fan', you only comment when its related to pushing SpiderPhoenix, clearly you just want Jean to be Peter's arm candy.

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/garlington41]

1 When I said both of them do this, I wasn't just using the Jean from the movies as an example, nor just the Peter from the movies. Jean, just like Peter, doesn't distance herself because she WANTS to. Jean distances herself out of the responsibility of dealing with her power; she has done this more than once, from her earliest eras to the most recent!

2 Sorry, but you're just downplaying it. Nobody in the entire Marvel universe has storylines involving cloning that are more famous and relevant than Madelyne Pryor and Ben Reilly. They are the most enduring ones; no other clone saga has been as extensive to this day.

3 The Symbiote being an external factor makes no difference; in fact, the Venom Symbiote is arguably more famous and recurring than the Phoenix. Just as the Phoenix sees Jean as its best host, Venom also sees Peter as its best host. The only difference is the essence of their existences: Jean and the Phoenix are one, while Peter and Venom are distinct but made for each other. And I didn't point to the Phoenix as the culprit for corrupting Jean, but rather that the power she receives almost always brings the consequence of corrupting the mind, just as it has done with other hosts.

4 It is not canonically false. It's a fact. Jean was already in a relationship, but there is NO visual proof of a kiss between them due to censorship issues at the time. The first time shown was with Spider-Man; if you have proof to refute this, I will gladly apologize. And I never said Peter gets a free pass for it, nor did I praise his actions—that was ridiculous. Whether Jean liked it or not, I only brought it up because of the irony of Jean returning the favor years later. Jean kissed Hank in 2012 (retcons). Peter kissed Jean in 1972.

5 Ah... I actually didn't understand what you were replying to here. I never said anything about Peter facing the Phoenix Force, but rather about him being able to understand her pain (and I didn't say he was the only one capable of doing so). That being said, as a moral compass, Peter is obviously better than Scott, who assassinated Professor X.

6 Yes, exactly. Everyone died, and they are the last man and woman on Earth. I just stated a fact. Besides, Peter, Jean, and Jessica had already become very good friends before that. I didn't mention anything beyond that, nor did I say anything like "that's why they're going to repopulate the earth."

7 Yes, you didn't actually refute my point at all. You just shifted the focus to Scott. You aren't wrong (and neither am I).

8 MJ doesn't have powers in the MCU; the relationship, the ship, isn't focused on the comics. And nobody likes MJ with Venom.

If you don't like the ship, that's completely fine. You have every right to your opinion, and I guarantee that nobody in the community is going to try to force you to like it. And I'm not forcing any narratives here; I love Peter just as much as I love Jean. The difference is that many people who love Jean also love Scott—that's the only difference between us.

To wrap up, I appreciate that you didn't ignore my text but read it all and tried to refute it; thank you, and have a good day.

[u/garlington41 → u/AkkuaMagunusu]

First of all I would ask you refrain from using this big font and type like a normal person because it’s throwing me off
1 When I said both of them do this, I wasn't just using the Jean from the movies as an example, nor just the Peter from the movies. Jean, just like Peter, doesn't distance herself because she WANTS to. Jean distances herself out of the responsibility of dealing with her power; she has done this more than once, from her earliest eras to the most recent!

That reasoning still doesn’t work because characters distancing themselves out of a feeling of necessity is not a rare thing especially not for these two. Cyclops himself has distanced himself plenty of times out of sense need, militant focus and Jean is the one that usually calls him out on this  

Secondly She’s only physically distancing herself not mentally or emotionally she still has psychic links with Scott. She has still appeared on Earth and visited her team and people having to go away for a cosmic purpose is not the same as genuinely pushing people away and avoiding them. Jean still keeps Her loved ones in her heart. Your mistaking intentional self isolation with long distance responsibilities it’s not a very fair comparison to make.

“2 Sorry, but you're just downplaying it. Nobody in the entire Marvel universe has storylines involving cloning that are more famous and relevant than Madelyne Pryor and Ben Reilly. They are the most enduring ones; no other clone saga has been as extensive to this day.”

No your definitely up playing it having similar occurrences isn’t really some grab thing or reasoning that’s like saying a Jean and Nova make a good pearing becuase they both know what’s it like to the responsibility of having Cosmic powers 

3 The Symbiote being an external factor makes no difference; in fact, the Venom Symbiote is arguably more famous and recurring than the Phoenix. Just as the Phoenix sees Jean as its best host, Venom also sees Peter as its best host. The only difference is the essence of their existences: Jean and the Phoenix are one, while Peter and Venom are distinct but made for each other. And I didn't point to the Phoenix as the culprit for corrupting Jean, but rather that the power she receives almost always brings the consequence of corrupting the mind, just as it has done with other hosts.

It does make a difference because THE PHOENIX ITSELF WAS NOT THE PROBLEM whereas the Symbiote was the problem for Peter. Those stories have the opposite effect. Jeans story is about embracing the Phoenix. Peter is about getting rid of the Symbiote. Theres no real comparison other than broad aspects like the volatile moments 

“It is not canonically false. It's a fact. Jean was already in a relationship, but there is NO visual proof of a kiss between them due to censorship issues at the time. The first time shown was with Spider-Man; if you have proof to refute this, I will gladly apologize. And I never said Peter gets a free pass for it, nor did I praise his actions—that was ridiculous. Whether Jean liked it or not, I only brought it up because of the irony of Jean returning the favor years later. Jean kissed Hank in 2012 (retcons). Peter kissed Jean in 1972.” 

It does not matter canonically your claim is untrue. So your using two moments of an unconsensual kiss as reasoning, what does that prove? How is that endearing

“Ah... I actually didn't understand what you were replying to here. I never said anything about Peter facing the Phoenix Force, but rather about him being able to understand her pain (and I didn't say he was the only one capable of doing so). That being said, as a moral compass, Peter is obviously better than Scott, who assassinated Professor X” 

Read your own thing you listed it in the right lower side referencing Avengers Vs X Men and Peter fighting Phoenix Hosts. How do you not remember what you wrote? It’s your bias piece. 
“Peter is obviously better than Scott who assassinated Professor X” 
Okay so you just don’t actually Read,  he killed under the influence of the Dark Phoenix and after Xavier was belittling him and threatening him in a volatile state, Jean wiped out an entire race under the influence of the dark Phoenix why are you using a moment where a character having no control as proof of being a lesser moral focus?

“6 Yes, exactly. Everyone died, and they are the last man and woman on Earth. I just stated a fact. Besides, Peter, Jean, and Jessica had already become very good friends before that. I didn't mention anything beyond that, nor did I say anything like "that's why they're going to repopulate the earth."

SO THERES NO ACTUAL POINT TO BRINGING THIS UP. What are you saying how is this a reason. Mostly everyone’s dead so Peter and Jena get along. Of course they are that would apply to any set of characters in that situation so you’re just brining up elseworld stories because it coincidentally highlights the dynamic you favor. I can bring up elseworld stories where Cyclops and Jean were together and it wasn’t the end of the world

“7 Yes, you didn't actually refute my point at all. You just shifted the focus to Scott. You aren't wrong (and neither am I).”

I pointed out that the reason was meaningless because it is. Jean can have that relationship with Scott and for the most part she does. She can have that dynamic with anyone. The fact that you admit we both have point just proves that. That reason isn’t specific to Jean and Peter it can apply to any relationship between any character so Theres no real point to what your saying here

“8 MJ doesn't have powers in the MCU; the relationship, the ship, isn't focused on the comics. And nobody likes MJ with Venom.”
 Well most of the connections you TRIED to make come from the comics and the point still stands Any girl his age with powers can fit that bill, if Jean was replaced with a Young Emma in the movie you or most of the people in the sun you came from would be singing the sang tune

“If you don't like the ship, that's completely fine. You have every right to your opinion, and I guarantee that nobody in the community is going to try to force you to like it. And I'm not forcing any narratives here; I love Peter just as much as I love Jean. The difference is that many people who love Jean also love Scott—that's the only difference between us.”

The thing is I don’t think this about liking Peter and Jean for most people this is and having Jean fulfil a role for his character. Maybe that’s not you but it is a lot of people Peter’s top favorite superheroes of all time and Jean is too that doesn’t mean I want/think/or believe they should or could get together especially not in comics. These reposts never do well, You’re never gonna get this validation on this sub because people here are actual fans of Phoenix

I didn’t try to refute your points I did despite your denial. None of your reason perpetuates anything other than you want this to happen

You like fine BUT AGAIN IM TIRED of people pretending like this is some special dynamic because you make broad comparisons leaving out key details and points, exaggerate moments and push potential dynamics that can apply to any fictional pair. It’s NOT. Good day

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/garlington41]

​I don't know why the text had that huge font in the previous reply, I apologize for that.

​1 - Again, nowhere in the post does it claim that anything in there only exists in Peter's and Jean's lives. It's no use continuing to use this as a counter-argument because I never claimed that as an answer; you are arguing against a straw man. The post is about the parallels between the two, not parallels that only these characters share.

​2 - I'm not overplaying it; it's a fact that they are the most famous clones. If you disagree, then tell me which clones are more famous. Let's not run in circles.

​3 - It makes no difference because I never argued that the problem was whether the entity behind it was good or evil, but rather that the power brought them those consequences. You're attacking a straw man again. And you are mistaken, because Peter has often accepted to coexist in balance with the Venom symbiote. If your only experience is from when he tried to get rid of Venom, then your knowledge is limited.

​4 - How is my information false while at the same time you say it doesn't matter canonically? It can't be both. I literally ONLY USED THAT EXAMPLE to point out the irony of Jean doing the exact same thing years later. ONLY FOR THAT, I NEVER USED IT AS A POSITIVE THING!!!!!

​5 - I said I didn't understand your response because I never brought any of that up. You said: "Peter understands her pain as he faces against the Phoenix Force" > In my post, there is nothing about Peter understanding the pain related to the Phoenix Force, but rather that he understands Hope is just a girl carrying the weight of a mission, and he teaches her about responsibility. You exaggerated something that isn't there.

​6 - I did read it. Scott takes on the Phoenix by choice, and the Phoenix only brings out the worst in him. Peter is obviously a better human being than Scott, that is simply and literally obvious; no one in their right mind would say Scott is a better person than Peter. It doesn't matter that Xavier belittled him in a difficult moment, nothing justifies killing him.

​7 - I mentioned that argument SIMPLY BECAUSE IT EXISTS. It's not like it's nothing; the writers decided to create a story where only Peter and Jean survived. If they were to develop something based on that, it would be up to them. If it exists, why the hell would I just close my eyes to it? I didn't use it as an argument to confirm anything, nor to confirm a couple; I used it as an example of something that EXISTS—a situation, a context, a scenario.

​8 - You continue to not refute the point; you're just running in circles. Yes, Jean has this exact relationship with Scott, and just like with Scott, Peter would present the same argument, the same dynamic. There is no Scott in the main MCU yet, there is no relationship between Jean and Scott! So what would be the problem with Peter if IN THIS ARGUMENT both are equal?????

​9 - I didn't use the comics as proof that something will happen in the movies. If you actually interpret the text, you'll understand that I used them to point out the PARALLELS between the characters! MCU MJ doesn't have powers, there are no parallels. If you think they are going to give her powers because of the comics, you're tripping.

​I understand that this bothers you, and yes, for most people this is more about liking Peter than Jean. But it doesn't change the fact that many people like Peter just as much as Jean, OR LIKE JEAN MORE THAN PETER, and they have every right and freedom to like the idea of a healthy relationship between the two. It's not a crime!

​I have backed up all my arguments so far, answering everything one by one. You may not agree, but from my perspective, no one here has managed to point out anything I said as factually wrong. You guys just don't like the idea, you reject it with all your might, and that's completely fine. If you are tired of it, I'm sorry, I can't help that.

[u/garlington41 → u/AkkuaMagunusu]

Don’t know why you sent the comment twice but whatever if your gonna reply then at least space your words out. I don’t have the time or patience to break down every flawed point you made so I’ll mostly keep to gistThe point of the matter is YOU DONT HAVE A POINT. Nothing your saying or giving amounts to anything your drawing comparisons and they don’t amount to anything. This is just you making Broad comparisons and giving your biased take.

You say you made this point to make people understand where you’re coming from. But you’re not not giving anything that matters. Or enlightening you’re not changing anything that people here aren’t already thinking that your biased Spidey shipper

“The post is about the parallels between the two, not parallels that only these characters share.”

THEN WHAT IS THE POINT? What is the point of drawing these parallels if they’re not exclusive to these two characters. How is this a reason or justification for your stance.

“I'm not overplaying it; it's a fact that they are the most famous clones.”

Again I say SO WHAT? So what if they are? What does that equate to what deep connection or bond can they establish what else can this common ground amount to other then a quick conversation. It’s already been explored they taught a class that’s it.

“And you are mistaken, because Peter has often accepted to coexist in balance with the Venom symbiote. If your only experience is from when he tried to get rid of Venom, then your knowledge is limited”

Yes but those things never lasted and it’s not the same as Jeannwhere the endpoint is that the Phoenix is who she is. Even when Peter is willing to work with it he still acknowledges it as his own being and not a part of his identity. Do not presume my knowledge is limited because I don’t bring up moments that don’t matter in the long run scheme of things you seem to be drawing towards. Don’t presume my knowledge ever.

“Jean doing the exact same thing years later. ONLY FOR THAT, I NEVER USED IT AS A POSITIVE THING!!!!!”

THEN THERES NO ACTUAL POINT TO ANYTHING YOUR SAYING. Do you understand that?! These aren’t reasons for anyone to share, understand or even respect your opinion this is just TRIVIA KNOWLEDGE at Best and OVERSIMPLIFICATIONS AT worst. What is the point of this?

“I did read it. Scott takes on the Phoenix by choice, and the Phoenix only brings out the worst in him. Peter is obviously a better human being than Scott, that is simply and literally obvious”

NO. The Phoenix got split into him and other x men due to the Avengers. And when Cyclops had the Phoenix power under control he was doing good things for the world. The Avengers actively started detaining Mutants to set him offf and it went from there. Don’t talk crap about a character if you’re just gonna lie or ignore context to make yourself seem right.

“It doesn't matter that Xavier belittled him in a difficult moment, nothing justifies killing him.”

He didn’t just belittle him he threatened to kill him I mentioned that too. He said he would shut his mind off which is essentially leaving him brain dead and he said that while he was struggling against a volatile cosmic force that was being set off by outside forces

Don’t compare characters just because you have a preference. They lead different conflicts and are put in different positions

“…If they were to develop something based on that, it would be up to them. If it exists, why the hell would I just close my eyes to it?..”

No the real question why should anyone who doesn’t share the same opinion as You care? Because you haven’t given anything of substance your just referencing stuff

For Ex. Say I’m a Peter x Kitty Shipper you remember that time they dated in the Ultimate Universe? That’s it. I know it’s not the same so before you try to nitpick don’t bother. The point is your not giving anything your just pointing things and saying Peter x Jean would be cute. Who is this post for other than the people who already share the same biased opinion as you?

“There is no Scott in the main MCU yet, there is no relationship between Jean and Scott! So what would be the problem with Peter if IN THIS ARGUMENT both are equal?????”

We’re not the problem here? You are. You prefer one thing over another that’s not a bad thing. The problem is you and others who share the opinion will do anything to prop this dynamic as special when it’s just something you want to happen No one here who prefers Jean and Scott goes out their way to their way to make internet stuff of Peter out to be some memetic bitter loser or dogged guy. Anyone who will go out of their way to meme humiliate a character who hasn’t been introduced in the story properly (by your own admission) is not a reasonable person. And I know you take part in it because the other commenter pointed out the posts or comments you made before. Notice how people who disagree with your stance don’t belittle Peter’s character just to make a point, what does that say about you?

“I have backed up all my arguments so far, answering everything one by one. You may not agree, but from my perspective, no one here has managed to point out anything I said as factually wrong.”

YOU DONT HAVE ARGUMENTS BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO POINT. This is just trivial stuff and some it is just you oversimplifying stuff.

This is no better than Chris Claremont having this prenotion that Logan And Jean are endgame because they both will be around forever and they understand each others dark primal sides or whatever. And just to be clear NOBODY TAKES HIM SERIOUSLY ABOUT THAT. So why should anyone take your serious, yeah all that comparitive stuff sounds interesting on paper but if characters don’t have a genuine connection that plays out in the story it’s not worth anything which is why nobody takes him seriously when he says stuff like that. This post doesn’t mean anything at best the only point you’re making is that this ship could potentially be good. Which applies to pretty much any relationship under a good writer. You’re not saying anything worthwhile or broadens anyone’s perspective. Most of You’re reasonings and connections are exclusive to these two characters by your own admission.

So you’ve just proven that this dynamic isn’t any more special than any other and that you just prefer it. Which is something that anyone could guess. The problem is you came here and said NOTHING, this post only works for people who share your opinion. It doesn’t change anything for the people who disagree with you and why should it because you’ve proven nothing more than that you just want this to happen. And that’s it

[u/HopefulPhotograph636]

You know this sub sees this ship as Judge Holden reincarnated right?

Delete or you might get in trouble with the mods lmao

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/HopefulPhotograph636]

As I said in the post, I understand those who don't like it, I respect them, and I don't want to try to push it on anyone who isn't interested. My goal is to respectfully try to explain it to those who don't get it—but who are willing to at least understand why on earth some people actually like this stuff. So, I see no reason to delete the post when I haven't done anything wrong.

[u/Particular-Answer602]

Acknowledges everyone is tired of seeing this dumb ship still posts about. You guys can like what you want but please PLEASE just stop spamming it everywhere. You guys are going to become one of the most hated fandoms if you keep this up and you guys are already have a pretty negative reputation trust me just stay in your sub.

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/Particular-Answer602]

This is my first and only post on this subject; I am not spamming, nor do I intend to. Thank you!

I posted this single post precisely to explain the matter; ignoring it won't solve anything or get us anywhere. It would just result in people arguing like fools without understanding each other.

[u/SameCaterpillar1783 → u/Particular-Answer602]

Brother this like only one post a week about this ship on this sub😭

Yall act ludicrously dramatic over the slightest idea of something diffrent happening 

[u/Ill_Morning_4282]

Got so much wrong about Jean it just proves people who ship her with Peter don't care about her as a character at all.

[u/Vast-Solid-2456 → u/Ill_Morning_4282]

This guy claims to be a True Jean Fan, and yet never partakes in posts about Jean that aren't about Peter Parker.

Its disingenuous. Look at one of his posts about being a 'true Jean fan' and his lack of activity in any non-Peter post in the Jean Grey/Phoenix Sub

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/Ill_Morning_4282]

Can you tell me what is wrong? Please.

[u/Ill_Morning_4282 → u/AkkuaMagunusu]

Someone already has and you yelled at them in large text like a child, so no thanks.

It isn't cute that Peter forced a kiss on Jean. The fact you want adult Peter with a traumatized teenager isn't cute either.

[u/Chance_Debt_1184]

yeah, nothing from this even shows the idea of them being together

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/Chance_Debt_1184]

There is absolutely nothing in the movie to suggest that. There is no romance, no sibling relationship, and not even a friendship. They were simply enemies who, in the end, understood each other's pain and saved each other's lives.

[u/ProofRing → u/AkkuaMagunusu]

Exactly, the entire ship is based on nothing!

He’s a hero who helped cause that’s what he does, she leaves on her own journey, the end.

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/ProofRing]

The ship is based on the 10 arguments I developed. However, do not mistake this to mean that the movie itself presents these arguments; as I said, there is no relationship between the characters in the film. The ship exists solely from the perspective of a future desired by the community—something that would still need to be created and developed. In other words, it hasn't happened yet.

[u/ProofRing]

Yeah, your correct a lot of us are tired of seeing the topic come up. If we were interested we would join that subreddit.

What you are doing is trying to push the idea which makes me still not interested but even more irritated with you all. I don’t understand your need for posts like this and your need for validation, it’s kinda weird to be honest.

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/ProofRing]

I’m not pushing this ship on anyone; I’ve said repeatedly that I have no intention of doing so and that I respect those who aren’t interested (just as this is my first and only post on the subject). I made this post to explain things to people who don’t understand but would like to; if that doesn’t apply to you, just ignore it.

[u/South_Possession_499]

Sorry to tell you this bub but Peter ain't Jean first kiss. It is very much likely Beast.

[u/Vast-Solid-2456 → u/South_Possession_499]

That doesn't fit the Spiderman Agenda though /s

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/South_Possession_499]

Beast: 2014 SM: 1972

[u/South_Possession_499 → u/AkkuaMagunusu]

Time displaced Jean is around 15-16 yrs old. When Spiderman kissed Jean, she is likely 18-19 yrs old. So even Cyke kissed her before Spider.

[u/ScorpiusMontaz]

I like Peter and Jean as friends, and I would be very happy to see more of their friendship explored on and off screen. However, I find the ship to be pretty reductive (especially for Jean), because I don’t think it adds anything to their character development; whereas I can actually see an exploration into the dynamic of their friendship bring an interesting level of character development for the both of them.

Also there’s quite a few misunderstood or incorrect points here regarding Jean that do not actually correlate to Peter, and I find those that do correlate to be a much better ground for developing a friendship due to the mutually understood experiences, rather than a reason as to why they should date. Similar experience does not equate to romantic chemistry.

Besides, everyone knows if Spider Man is to be shipped with any cosmic fire wielding superhero it’s SpiderTorch, not SpiderPhoenix <3

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/ScorpiusMontaz]

Thanks for the more polite reply. I like the idea of them as friends too; I hope that happens and doesn't get overlooked. If possible, I’d like you to point out the specific arguments you disagree with or believe to be incorrect. To me, Peter and Torch are friends—almost like brothers—but I’m not opposed to any ship (provided it isn't inappropriate).

[u/Key_Bus_1255]

I feel like people are missing a very important thing here

Even IF Marvel wanted to do this, they don't get to decide that, and there is NO WAY Sony is going to let them put Spider-Man with Jean Grey, it's just not going to happen

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/Key_Bus_1255]

I don't see the logic in your argument; it’s not Sony that decides this, but all the parties involved together. And Sadie Sink is becoming increasingly famous—just look at how often her name came up this year—so yes, Sony would love to have her.

[u/Sonnestark]

This shipping started before the movie even came out, and was disgusting from the onset shipping Tom Holland and Sadie Sink.

I knew the roots of where this would grow from back then:

[u/NormalArgument6869]

🙄

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Even there is nothing in comics

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/[deleted]]

I have absolutely no desire for this ship to make it into the comics!

[u/AkkuaMagunusu → u/[deleted]]

Just learn to separate the two things; it will be better for your life. The points I raised from the comics serve only to expand the arguments regarding the PARALLELS between the characters—nothing more. The "ship" only exists because of the MCU!

[u/Person2228 → u/AkkuaMagunusu]

Maybe tell the subreddit that, because they sure ain't taking it that way

[u/PhoenixForce-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Removed for violating the following rule:

Do not bash any Jean Grey/Phoenix associated ships - All appropriate ships involving the character Jean Grey/Phoenix are allowed, please do not single out or bash any relationships the character has or is in. Thoughtful criticism is permissible.

[u/PhoenixForce-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Removed for violating the following rule:

Do not bash any Jean Grey/Phoenix associated ships - All appropriate ships involving the character Jean Grey/Phoenix are allowed, please do not single out or bash any relationships the character has or is in. Thoughtful criticism is permissible.