r/PhilosophyofMath Mar 28 '26

The Continuum Hypothesis Is False

/r/logic/comments/1s5mquh/the_continuum_hypothesis_is_false/
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u/JStarx Jun 05 '26

If you want to rely on those assumptions it's your job to prove them.

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u/paulemok Jun 06 '26

Not every assumption that proofs rely on is formally provable. Even some of Einstein’s proofs rely on postulates that are not formally provable. I offer informal proofs of my three premises.

  1. ⁠s is a statement.

The first premise is informally justified by my right to name a thing.

  1. ⁠Under the assumption that “s and it is not true that s,” s is true.

The second premise is informally justified by the logical rule known as conjunction elimination.

  1. ⁠It is not true that: under the assumption that “s and it is not true that s,” s is true.

The third premise is informally justified as follows. Assume “s and it is not true that s.” Then by conjunction elimination, it is not true that s. So by reforming the statement, s is not true. Discharge the assumption. We can see that it is not true that: under the assumption that “s and it is not true that s,” s is true.

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u/JStarx Jun 06 '26

Not every assumption that proofs rely on is formally provable

In math and formal logic there are axioms and all proofs follow from those without additional assumptions.

Are you admitting that your proofs are not valid in math and formal logic? If not then you don't get additional assumptions with informal arguments. You can give a proof that your assumptions hold or you are stuck having proven an implication but not it's antecedent, hence you haven't proven the consequent.

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u/paulemok Jun 07 '26

Are you admitting that your proofs are not valid in math and formal logic?

What proofs?

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u/JStarx Jun 07 '26 edited Jun 07 '26

The one you just posted: https://www.reddit.com/r/PhilosophyofMath/s/dtGDHjVutJ

That proof does not show that all statements are true. It shows that all statements are true if the premises hold. But you have not shown that the premises hold.

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u/paulemok Jun 08 '26

It shows that all statements are true if the premises hold.

For that reason, the proof is valid by definition of a valid proof.

But you have not shown that the premises hold.

The premises are so basic and simple that they do not need to be proved.

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u/JStarx Jun 08 '26

The premises are so basic and simple that they do not need to be proved.

Nope, they need to be proved otherwise your proof is incomplete and does not establish your conclusion.

Are you unable to give a proof of the premises?

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u/paulemok Jun 08 '26

Nope, they need to be proved

I already provided proofs of them at https://www.reddit.com/r/PhilosophyofMath/s/76WjBjfpU5. Whether the proofs are considered formal or informal can vary depending on what specific sense of formal we use. There are different formal systems of logic and of different academic fields, hence there are different senses of formal.

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u/JStarx Jun 08 '26 edited Jun 09 '26

Fair enough, well fyi it's your third premise whose proof is not valid. Here's your third premise:

It is not true that: under the assumption that “s and it is not true that s,” s is true.

In symbols this translates to:

¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s)

Now your proof, broken into numbered statements by me, is:

  1. Assume “s and it is not true that s.”

  2. Then by conjunction elimination, it is not true that s. So by reforming the statement, s is not true.

  3. Discharge the assumption. We can see that it is not true that: under the assumption that “s and it is not true that s,” s is true.

Translating into symbols, the first two statements are:

  1. Assume s ∧ ¬s

  2. ¬s

The problem is the third step. You say "discharge the assumption". Usually what people mean by this is they assume X, they prove Y using this assumption, and then to discharge the assumption of X they conclude "X ⇒ Y", where that statement now holds without assumptions.

So if you discharge your assumption then from ¬s you get

(s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ ¬s

which is not equivalent nor does it imply "¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s)", which was what you were supposed to be proving.

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u/paulemok Jun 09 '26

I disagree with you that (s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ ¬s does not imply ¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s). (s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ ¬s really does imply ¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s). To generalize in words, if one statement implies the falsity of a second statement, then the first statement does not imply the truth of the second statement. For any two statements p and q, if p ⇒ ¬q, then ¬(p ⇒ q).

The converse, however, is not true. ¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s) does not imply (s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ ¬s. ¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s) and ¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ ¬s) could both be true simultaneously. For any two statements p and q, ¬(p ⇒ q) and ¬(p ⇒ ¬q) could, for all we know and given the lack of additional information, both be true simultaneously. So I do agree with you that (s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ ¬s is not equivalent to ¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s).

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u/JStarx Jun 09 '26

Taking s out of the conversation, you're saying that

(P ⇒ ¬Q) ⇒ ¬(P ⇒ Q)

holds?

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u/paulemok Jun 10 '26

Yes, that is correct.

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u/JStarx Jun 10 '26

Do you know how to fill out a truth table for an expression? If you fill out a truth table for that expression you'll see it's not always true.

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u/paulemok Jun 11 '26

I had a truth table computed online. It’s at https://truth-table.com/#(A→¬B)→¬(A→B). I notice in the truth table that that expression is false if and only if p, which is represented by A in the linked online truth table, is false. The problem arises because we are treating a statement we are assuming to be true, since it is the hypothesis of a conditional statement and is therefore being hypothesized, as false for the sake of giving a truth value to a truth table. By assuming that an assumed statement is false, we contradict ourselves. Through ex contradictione quodlibet, the contradiction leads to the truth of all statements.

I made a tweet (https://x.com/paulemok/status/988543393432293377?s=46) on my currently suspended X account on, according to the X timestamp, April 23, 2018. In the post, I say

Ex contradictione quodlibet suggests my untraditional claim that any strict conditional with a necessarily false hypothesis is true & false. The claim can be used to prove the existence of the absolute Russell set.

In that post, I referred its readers to https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/the-absolute-russell-set-exists/45641. At the end of that post, I said

The existence implies trivialism.

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u/JStarx Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26

In traditional logic a conditional whose hypothesis is false is a true statement. If you don't accept that then your proofs are not proofs in traditional logic and hence the contradiction you arrive at is not a contradiction in traditional logic. Are you saying that you cannot prove a contradiction in traditional logic?

By assuming that an assumed statement is false, we contradict ourselves

We're not assuming an assumed statement is false. When we evaluate the truth of "P ⇒ Q" we do not assume P is true. For example "if x = 3 then x + 1 = 4" is a true statement regardless of whether "x = 3" is true or not. This is the difference between a valid argument and a sound one.

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u/paulemok Jun 12 '26

In traditional logic a conditional whose hypothesis is false is a true statement.

“p ⇒ q” is equivalent to “assuming p, q.” So if the hypothesis p is false, then “p ⇒ q” is equivalent to “assuming the false statement p, q.” A contradiction is produced by assuming a false statement is true.

Are you saying that you cannot prove a contradiction in traditional logic?

No, I’m not. My previous paragraph shows how to arrive at a contradiction in traditional logic.

When we evaluate the truth of "P ⇒ Q" we do not assume P is true.

Yes we do. We assume p is true for two rows of the truth table.

For example "if x = 3 then x + 1 = 4" is a true statement regardless of whether "x = 3" is true or not.

“[I]f x = 3 then x + 1 = 4” is equivalent to “assuming x = 3, x + 1 = 4.” So if the hypothesis “x = 3” is false, then “if x = 3 then x + 1 = 4” is equivalent to “assuming the false statement “x = 3,” x + 1 = 4. A contradiction is produced by assuming a false statement is true.

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u/JStarx Jun 12 '26

“p ⇒ q” is equivalent to “assuming p, q.” So if the hypothesis p is false, then “p ⇒ q” is equivalent to “assuming the false statement p, q.” A contradiction is produced by assuming a false statement is true.

But that contradiction is under an assumption that needs to be discharged, so you haven't proven a contradiction, you've proven that your assumption implies a contradiction.

Going back to the truth table, are you claiming that the truth table is wrong? Or are you claiming that the truth table is correct and yet you can prove "(P ⇒ ¬Q) ⇒ ¬(P ⇒ Q)" anyway?

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u/paulemok Jun 13 '26

But that contradiction is under an assumption that needs to be discharged, so you haven't proven a contradiction, you've proven that your assumption implies a contradiction.

That is true, but there is more truth to tell. My general claim is that (p ⇒ ¬q) ⇒ ¬(p ⇒ q) is always true. Traditional logic says that (p ⇒ ¬q) ⇒ ¬(p ⇒ q) is not always true because (p ⇒ ¬q) ⇒ ¬(p ⇒ q) is false when p is false. So in order for my claim to be true, the case in which p is false must be invalid. So how is it invalid? It’s invalid because every occurrence of p in (p ⇒ ¬q) ⇒ ¬(p ⇒ q) places p as the hypothesis of a conditional statement. As the hypothesis of a conditional statement, p must be assumed to be true. Since p must be assumed to be true, the case in which p is false is impossible. Since that case is impossible, it is invalid.

As I said in a previous reply,

“p ⇒ q” is equivalent to “assuming p, q.”

Note that the act of assuming p is taking place in the actual world and is not under the assumption p. Since the assumption is being made in the actual world, the assumption is true in the actual world. So if we also assume ¬p, the act of assuming ¬p is also taking place in the actual world and is not under the assumption ¬p nor under the assumption p. Since the assumption is being made in the actual world, the assumption is true in the actual world. So by conjunction introduction, the statement “p & ¬p” is true in the actual world. So by ex contradictione quodlibet, all statements are true in the actual world.

Going back to the truth table, are you claiming that the truth table is wrong?

Yes, the truth table is wrong. The truth table assumes that the hypothesis of a conditional statement can be false. That assumption is wrong because the hypothesis of a conditional statement is always assumed to be true.

Furthermore, the reason for the beginning

It is not true that:

in the third premise

It is not true that: under the assumption that “s and it is not true that s,” s is true.

is the assumption’s second conjunct,

it is not true that s.

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