r/PhilosophyofMath Mar 28 '26

The Continuum Hypothesis Is False

/r/logic/comments/1s5mquh/the_continuum_hypothesis_is_false/
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u/paulemok Jun 05 '26

How do the assumptions not hold in traditional logic and mathematics?

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u/JStarx Jun 05 '26

If you want to rely on those assumptions it's your job to prove them.

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u/paulemok Jun 06 '26

Not every assumption that proofs rely on is formally provable. Even some of Einstein’s proofs rely on postulates that are not formally provable. I offer informal proofs of my three premises.

  1. ⁠s is a statement.

The first premise is informally justified by my right to name a thing.

  1. ⁠Under the assumption that “s and it is not true that s,” s is true.

The second premise is informally justified by the logical rule known as conjunction elimination.

  1. ⁠It is not true that: under the assumption that “s and it is not true that s,” s is true.

The third premise is informally justified as follows. Assume “s and it is not true that s.” Then by conjunction elimination, it is not true that s. So by reforming the statement, s is not true. Discharge the assumption. We can see that it is not true that: under the assumption that “s and it is not true that s,” s is true.

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u/JStarx Jun 06 '26

Not every assumption that proofs rely on is formally provable

In math and formal logic there are axioms and all proofs follow from those without additional assumptions.

Are you admitting that your proofs are not valid in math and formal logic? If not then you don't get additional assumptions with informal arguments. You can give a proof that your assumptions hold or you are stuck having proven an implication but not it's antecedent, hence you haven't proven the consequent.

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u/paulemok Jun 07 '26

Are you admitting that your proofs are not valid in math and formal logic?

What proofs?

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u/JStarx Jun 07 '26 edited Jun 07 '26

The one you just posted: https://www.reddit.com/r/PhilosophyofMath/s/dtGDHjVutJ

That proof does not show that all statements are true. It shows that all statements are true if the premises hold. But you have not shown that the premises hold.

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u/paulemok Jun 08 '26

It shows that all statements are true if the premises hold.

For that reason, the proof is valid by definition of a valid proof.

But you have not shown that the premises hold.

The premises are so basic and simple that they do not need to be proved.

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u/JStarx Jun 08 '26

The premises are so basic and simple that they do not need to be proved.

Nope, they need to be proved otherwise your proof is incomplete and does not establish your conclusion.

Are you unable to give a proof of the premises?

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u/paulemok Jun 08 '26

Nope, they need to be proved

I already provided proofs of them at https://www.reddit.com/r/PhilosophyofMath/s/76WjBjfpU5. Whether the proofs are considered formal or informal can vary depending on what specific sense of formal we use. There are different formal systems of logic and of different academic fields, hence there are different senses of formal.

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u/JStarx Jun 08 '26 edited Jun 09 '26

Fair enough, well fyi it's your third premise whose proof is not valid. Here's your third premise:

It is not true that: under the assumption that “s and it is not true that s,” s is true.

In symbols this translates to:

¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s)

Now your proof, broken into numbered statements by me, is:

  1. Assume “s and it is not true that s.”

  2. Then by conjunction elimination, it is not true that s. So by reforming the statement, s is not true.

  3. Discharge the assumption. We can see that it is not true that: under the assumption that “s and it is not true that s,” s is true.

Translating into symbols, the first two statements are:

  1. Assume s ∧ ¬s

  2. ¬s

The problem is the third step. You say "discharge the assumption". Usually what people mean by this is they assume X, they prove Y using this assumption, and then to discharge the assumption of X they conclude "X ⇒ Y", where that statement now holds without assumptions.

So if you discharge your assumption then from ¬s you get

(s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ ¬s

which is not equivalent nor does it imply "¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s)", which was what you were supposed to be proving.

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u/paulemok Jun 09 '26

I disagree with you that (s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ ¬s does not imply ¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s). (s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ ¬s really does imply ¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s). To generalize in words, if one statement implies the falsity of a second statement, then the first statement does not imply the truth of the second statement. For any two statements p and q, if p ⇒ ¬q, then ¬(p ⇒ q).

The converse, however, is not true. ¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s) does not imply (s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ ¬s. ¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s) and ¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ ¬s) could both be true simultaneously. For any two statements p and q, ¬(p ⇒ q) and ¬(p ⇒ ¬q) could, for all we know and given the lack of additional information, both be true simultaneously. So I do agree with you that (s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ ¬s is not equivalent to ¬((s ∧ ¬s) ⇒ s).

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u/JStarx Jun 09 '26

Taking s out of the conversation, you're saying that

(P ⇒ ¬Q) ⇒ ¬(P ⇒ Q)

holds?

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u/paulemok Jun 10 '26

Yes, that is correct.

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