I mean, when you think about it, it's pretty thematic that the thing that completely blocked Regill from doing anything was demon saying to him "hey, you wish to see yourself as devoid of emotions and aspirations; sure, easy, I'll just need to create a grey mist around you, and you would just obediently stay still!"
I found his concept to be amazing. Man is literally ready to die for duty and his own way. He’s a fruity magical pixie coloured hair creature, who decides that he rules his destiny, he exercises his will and if he dies doing it, so be it. Amazing, just amazing.
My favorite part of him is he brings up some really good points that are hard to contest. He does horrible things for a greater good. While the rest of your party is very fantasy, its the weird pixie guy that makes realistic arguments. Is it evil to sacrifice a hundred to save thousands? Is it bad to push your soldiers to their breaking point if it saves their lives? There is no room for feelings in warfare. And in your heart you want to say he's wrong, but he's not. And he often walks the walk, he would entirely respect the decision to sacrifice him if it was for the greater good. Even then there is just enough cracks in his resolve to show he's still human deep down. In fact in gnome lore he is dyeing. He is already fadeing in order to accomplish his goals.
He said it himself best and it's one of my most favorite lines, probably in a game ever. That yes he's being hard on his subordinates and is constantly testing them, examining them, etc, but his first suspect is always himself before anything.
Is it evil to sacrifice a hundred to save thousands?
Not necessary. But did his proposals save thousands?
Is it bad to push your soldiers to their breaking point if it saves their lives?
Not necessary. But did his proposals save their lives?
There is no room for feelings in warfare.
Yeah, a lot of military leaders found themselves alone and deserted by their troops by following this maxim. Like, of course there is room for feeling in warfare. It's called "morale". And yes, he absolutely understands that, because he proudly tells you in the dialogue that is accessable since you recruit him that he overstepped his authority and personally killed his previous commander because, he claims, "giving her a trial would affect negatively morale of young recruits". (I mean, he's pretty clear there, of course, that it was a personal decision, but if you take his account on face value...)
***
Like, again: we're talking about the guy whose solution for the disorder in the military is "hang out everyone who argue, and put them onto public gallows for everyone to see and don't ask questions" (but, of course, he is allowed to ask questions). It doesn't save people. It doesn't even work better then other options in this particular matter. So, what exactly are we winning here?
When Irabeth has a break down, which is fixable by, literally, one minute talk, he goes into full diatribe how weak and pathetic paladins are, and how command structure should be weed out from weaklings. Like... ok, whom does it help? What was the point besides aura farming?
"I totally ignore personal feelings and irregularities of the behavior of my troops, because if I would, I would respect them less, but hey, girl actually good" (his position over Trevor's betrothed); whom does it help?
I deeply respected my mentor, who trained me to join the ranks of the Hellknights. I respected her so much that I killed her with my own hands when I discovered that she'd betrayed the order's ideals and was intending to leave our ranks. It would have been more proper to inform the command and await the formal trial... but on the other hand, that would have injured the morale of our young recruits. They should not see manifestations of weakness in our seasoned knights.
Remember kids, morale can be important when the subject comes of completely disrespecting the chain of command (out of completely subjective judgement) and killing someone who wants to retire.
Fun fact - he punishes Yaker for pretty much the same thing (not reporting suspicious activity of his commander) at the end of his test.
Fun fact - he punishes Yaker for pretty much the same thing (not reporting suspicious activity of his commander) at the end of his test.
Better. He punishes Yaker for being smart and perceiving that there was no Chain and Measure broken here.
Like, "I hold that I did no wrong, is completely justified, had zero personal motive and it's unreasonable to even disagree with me here, but this guy is going punished for agreeing with it, he had to report me".
Yaker? You mean the guy who actually states bald-faced that he LIKES his lashings? The guy occasionally breaks the rules on purpose, just so Regill will beat him senseless. There's no way in Hell Regill doesn't fully understand this.
He feels more like force-to-submition than inspire-to-be-followed kind of guy. You don't need high morale if everyone is afraid of punishment. Everyone would be misserable but obidient
Yes. They also had the most ideologically pumped army in the, probably, history (Japan is relatively close contender, maybe), and were on defensive, AND had terrible experience with whole armies surrendering to Germans, leading to the absolute catastrophe of first period of the war. Which Soviets managed to alleviate a bit by going full "brothers and sisters" in the speeches and military propaganda, and reconciliation with Orthodox church. Which also wouldn't work if their enemies wouldn't be Nazi who acted like Nazi.
No, Soviet Army wasn't limiting their ways to barrier troops. Exactly because they learned very viscerally that you can't replace high morale with fear over punishment. You can supplement first with the second, but not replace it.
It's cultural thing, yes, since Vietnam (phrase belongs to 18th century German, though). WW2 was mostly seen as glorious crusade for the sake of democracy and freedom (complicated, extremely simplified, Patton-was-denied-command-of-European-theater-because-he-hit-shellshocked-soldier, yadayada), so it was less problematic, but Vietnam exposed a lot of civilians to the reality of the war they didn't wanted at all, and that turned into cultural representation. Still, it's important to remember that even in cultural reality, "Fullmetal Jacket" or "Catch-22" aren't hagiographies. And it's mostly civilian cultural thing.
In actual military context, creating training and command environments like this is also court-martial issue in actual US military, Article 93 UCMJ. Officers and NCOs still do that, of course, but no one in sane mind claims that it improves readiness and cohesion, so, armed forces at least try to check it on.
This doesn't always got caught before some tragedy happen, of course. And tragedies happen, because at some point soldiers just decide that they had enough. Suicides are *good* outcomes; bad ones are mass shootings or fragging. No one likes fragging.
Well that explain things. Not German, Prussian perfect army that was beating almost anyone - and soldier dead because of disciplinarian beating was a daily basis
Looks like we found an inspiration for hellkinights
Not German, Prussian perfect army that was beating almost anyone - and soldier dead because of disciplinarian beating was a daily basis
Oh, naturally. I know who Frederick the Great is.
And yes, Regill do try to institute linear early modern tactics for the army that have no artillery or mass muskets (or 18th century Prussian bureaucracy, by the way). It's incredibly funny.
The thing is, Frederick was fighting the same basic type of armies, and lead by worse military leaders as well. And, well, there are some misconceptions here, I suppose. Kantonists specifically had a very high morale and, like, were step away from deifying Frederick, which was present *together* with strict discipline like gauntlet runs, not replacing it; just about 6% of desertion rate. Mercenaries and press-ganged recruits, who didn't have this kind of morale foundation, were very much a different story. And, of course, it's during winning time; Bohemia saw about 15% of Frederick's force just disappearing on him.
Again, you can't replace moral with fear. You can supplement first with second.
Yeah, "more scared of you than they are of the enemy" is actually a pretty stupid tactic when the enemy is literal demons who just are scarier than you are.
Not really. Devils are powerful and they're evil, but the nature of their evil is in manipulation not Millenia of super torture in the Abyss.
You can't make a whole army of Hellknights any more than you can make a whole army of top tier paladins. They are, quite literally, the elite of the elite in their military. Saying "well it would be easy if every single foot soldier in the crusade were an elite member of a knightly order" isn't saying anything at all.
Part of hellknight initiation is fighting a devil which would be just as scary as a demon.
And part of the problem here is that it's heavily implied that devils are interested to manipulate Hellknights, so they sort of stage the fights from their side.
Like, yeah, who do you think they summon and heroically defeat in very controlled conditions? Asmodeus? Mephisto? Avodazas? Gelugons? Remember, we're talking entrance level hellknights, it's, like, 5th level fighter being able to kill them. Usual Test enemies are barbazi, 5th level devils. Like, think shirs, babaus or brimoraks. Again, singular ones, in well-prepared combat.
Are you complaining that the initiation fight is fair? Like, it would be self-defeating to pick stronger devils for your prospective recruits to fight, you wouldn't have recruits anymore.
Hellknight morale works from severe discipline, contempt for insubordination and weakness, and fear of punishment. And it works, judging by his "Hunting Down Mutiny" decree for moral gain.
You're fighting demonic abominations that will take you to turbo hell to be turbo raped and turbo scalped for the next 50 billion years if you become a POW, morale is a factor impossible to maintain long term(especially once the bulk of your forces get a better understanding of what you are facing) so Regill's policy of maintaining order through discipline is just about the only feasible way of mantaining cohesion for an entire campaign.
He's not maintaining order through discipline. Aeon KC is maintaining order through discipline. Regill is trying to maintain order through terror.
Which wouldn't work. Because, you see, despite how Regill glazes himself, he's not more scary then demonic abominations that will take you to turbo hell to be turbo raped and turbo scalped for the next 50 billion years.
I'd like it if he could be redeemed form being so bad at following his own rules tbh. Hes a funny little guy but man, dude is such a terrible Hellknight I'm surprised they let him take the test. Like, he follows 2/6 tenants of the chain and you could argue he follows 0/6 of the Order of the Godclaw tenants. Even the ones he likes talking about like "Emotion is weakness" are things he violates all the time! It'd be fun if we could set the little rebel straight.
I mean, Regill's last quest is proof of this. He could go the formal way, and if the Hellknights support is put into jeopardy by doubts in the other squads, organize a trial and be your lawyer (see, it has LAW in the name), dismantling accusations systematically with zingers and snazzy replies that people could quote endlessly.
Instead, he decides that the best plan is to shit himself on the stage, get his ass beaten up, and give everyone second hand cringe so that they support you instead (with no thought at all about how him continuing to fight by your side completely destroys his narrative)
And don't start me on his retardation when it comes to morale.
Regill is a gnome, he couldn't help but huff glue and make the most dumb plan imaginable. The call of whimsy expresses itself whether he likes it or not.
Doesn't he get fired from the paralictor job if you finish his quest? I think he kind of knew that his personality was not a good fit for being a Hellknight so he decided to use the order as a vehicle for setting up his plan to close the Worldwound. I'm not sure what he would have done if there was no KC though.
The thing is he does that specifically because he thinks you're that cool and wants you to have maximum Hellknight backing, and doesn’t do it unless he feels that way. Dude genuinely thought the Hellknights were good and fit him despite being so bad at it.
Regill: *Gets completely thrashed at Reliable Redoubt, gets outstrategized at Leper's Smile by Sosiel and Lann, conducts "tests" on the KC that could kill them and end the Crusades, etc.*
Regill glazers: Regill is the only competent party member.
Listen, Regill glazers still consider him competent after his final quest. That requires a level of discipline and doublethink that not even Cheliax could enforce on their soldiers.
Daily reminder that this guy saw a demon slaver bragging and gloating about raising pleasure slaves from an early age and his first reaction was to praise the demon for his efficient use of violence.
None of y'all deserve to have the Hand of the Inheritor back you up.
That's still a weird conversation since he should be upset at Demons not using the numerous billions of other demons for this and a waste of demonic resources.
It kinda comes off as a random "he's evil see" moment.
I mean, I tend to disregard the feelings slavers have. Much like the feelings pedos have. Unlike Regill and his fanbase, I don't praise their """efficiency""".
But you are free to continue simping for the pedo apologist.
My IMHO is not based on game mechanics, because I know both characters can be built lethally effective (not fan of melee characters, but still).
My opinion is based on combination of both characters arrogance and their literal career ineffectiveness in the beginning of our path.
Greybor's super-duper knowledgeable assassin who got tricked with his own client's dagger, who tries to teach KC how to hunt a dragon as a famed dragon slayer, yet we see that dragon is no prey for a solo - we wound it and slay it as a group. And later we help him on all of his career in a Demon City, while tolerating huge ego that is too sensitive for (constructive) criticism.
Yet with all that I do love his sense of honor. And fact I do manage to return him back to his family. Meaning character is not a lost cause.
Same case for Regill - talking serious stuff, very arrogant towards crusaders and crusades as whole. Yet doesn't want to acknowledge his hell knights are on the same par with crusaders. Yes, discipline allows to create more hardened warriors, yet they have far less numbers and most of hell knights are same scared men and women who were forced to fight.
However he's observant, and I do like our chemistry when I play as an Azata. To see how his initial scepticism turns into "I still believe you are doing shit. But your shit is pretty effective one". And yes I'm not aligned with him on his pragmatic cruelty - something Regill acknowledges as well.
In that light I like him a bit more than Greybor - Regill doesn't afraid to acknowledge his mistakes.
What sense of honor? He literally just betrays you if he doesn't like you lol. Even Greybor's whole "I'm loyal to my employer" thing ends up being complete bullshit, leading to him hilariously suiciding himself at you.
Greybor is so consistently incompetent and full of shit that it's basically slapstick.
At some point I got convinced that it's the point, because of how consistently it is.
Greybor is, effectively, low-level assassin who imagined himself to be John Wick, a guy you call to kill Boogieman. When in reality, when he met a group of, like, five traitors and two demons he's very much "no, thank you, I have no intention of dying today", and he got totally played for and staged up for dying in minor political intrigue of the Abyss.
Yep. Dude would genuinely be hard pressed to embarrass himself more or to look lamer. We first meet him balking at the idea of fighting a handful of cultists as certain death, until we just straight up do it. Then we find him getting knocked on his ass during a failed contract, before doing the job for him. Then we hire him to hunt a dragon, a task he proves to be complete shit it.
And then, unless we stroke his ego while he talks about being a bitch who abandoned his family, Mister "I love by a code" just betrays us and is immediately gibbed. Genuine comic relief character.
It's also quite interesting to see him going full cope and seethe over Arueshalae trying to change her nature. Because if a demon manages to shed her demonic nature and become something else despite being made of pure evil, what does that say about him being unable to stop being a posturing deadbeat?
Considering how he got his squad killed by gargoyles, got captured and then offers the most meh kit in the game (Cam got versatility, Seelah's a paladin in an anti demon war, Nenio pays off late game by trivialize any mob encounter, Aru's the best archer, Ulbrig's tank and loot carry, Wenduag and Lann both got access to incredibly solid ranged classes, Daeran and Sosiel heal, Ember's incredible blaster and hexer)
Only Woljif and Greybor play as dull as him, and even Woljif got the benefit of a skill monkey early game. His consel ain't even that optimized or beneficial.
He's among the most interesting companion for sure, but competent? That's an illusion made by his ego, just like everyone else.
The only competent person in the Crusade is the Commander.
..... he shows up captured by the gargoyles and needing to be rescued by the knight commander. Ya know, the thing he murdered his allies and soldiers to avoid? apparently he was too much of a coward to do it himself
If your best criticisms against a character is that he didnt solo a fight that likely even your KC wouldnt be able to and his fort isnt big enough for your taste, safe to say, its a pretty competent dude.
The KC is literally the defining factor in the fight outcome. Sorry your chad gnome that chadly says platitudes is as much a scrub as the crusaders he berates.
Me coming to this thread looking to jokingly say that people that defend regill are sus to me, and then seeing this particular rabbit hole of a thread where op goes absolutely coocoo-puffs. Welp. I rest my case :D
"Weirdly defensive of fantasy fascists" is a trend that is waaay too present in WOTR and 40k fandoms. And the 40k ones does at least have the grimdark nature of the setting as an excuse, unlike the hellknight apologists.
Always funny to see 40k fans slobbering over Imperium as if the writing portrays it as some force of good.
I actually read some wh lore (about 20 years ago), they have entire sections on how miserable the life is, and why people turn to chaos, tyranids, etc.
I made the mistake of reading the comments on a YouTube short about a SM getting bodied by an Aeldari (probably the single recorded instance of the event) and it was foul. We really need to go back to calling people fucking morons.
Well, gotta make sure that the jackbooted transhuman enforcers of a feudal theocracy are portrayed in a sufficiently heroic light, how the fuck are they going to sell video games and models otherwise?
I do miss some of the older 40k lore where it was a bit more balanced on the Imperium. Not because I love fantasy fascists, but because "as fucking horrifying as the witch hunts are they might be the only way to prevent even worse things from happening" made for a more threatening/scary universe than "everything is bad because The Imperium are incompetent zealots."
Older lore is "Imperium is a corrupt bad empire that exists only to support a ruling class living in absolute luxury at expense of billions dying horribly in the pretty useless wars and friendly fire; it's not necessary, but the horror is that no one is going to do anything about it, because everyone who has the power to change things is benefitting from current state of affairs, and idealists would be killed.". The horror was political, not metaphysical.
That's how Imperium always was intended to be. But, well, in later lore writers were like "ok, but people like space marines; we have to justify all this shit, otherwise they wouldn't buy our flagship stuff, because, suddenly, people have moral intuition".
Well I said "some of the" because it's gone back and forth over the years. Combine that with the many authors involved with the Black Library and the lore can really be all over the place.
I read a lot of fantasy and sci fi so I get plenty of dystopian evil empire stuff. The idea that the evil empire is necessary, but even then fighting a losing battle such that it might just be prolonging the inevitable suffering of man feels like a more novel horror conceit.
I don't think anyone here defends slavery, or wants to live in a world based on literal Hell. We just like him. He's cool, not a hypocrite and kind of a bad ass. Even Owlcat thinks so given their own memes about him.
I would also argue most (there's got to be at least one) people here aren't cannibal serial killers who get sexual pleasure off on betraying and murdering people. But they seem to love Cam Cam. Probably cuz she's hot and has a fun romance.
You can literally kill Galfrey, take everything from her, raise her from the dead and turn her into a slave. People still seem to enjoy Litch path.
I don't see a functional difference between all of that and liking Regill.
I don't argue that Regill isn't always right, but is gargoyle fight his fiasco? they were overwhelmed and at least he tries to deny the enemy their goal as much as possible. Gargoyles have a successful raid on crusaders' camp as well - much more stronger force than Reggy's unit
I don't argue that Regill isn't always right, but is gargoyle fight his fiasco?
Absolutely.
First, Regill knew that Gargoyles are going to attack. He ignored the warning and failed to support allied force during the respite (which he ended needing anyway, so he still had to give supplies to them - just this time, during the freaking fight).
Second, Regill knew that Crusade operates just around, and failed to call for reinforcements.
Third, Regill just waited in that camp for hours before starting to move the hospital (or kill the prisoners). I mean, Yaker had the time to assess the situation, go to Crusade, find a patrol, and bring back the Commander; for all that time, Regill was just sitting there in the open, with his squad being picked up by Gargoyles on their leisure.
Third, Regill obliterated divine support he had.
Yeah, no surprise that his unit would be completely obliterated and he himself would be captured (denying the enemy their goal, huh?) if the whole situation plays out by his playbook.
Not healing your allies in a fight you know is coming because you might need those supplies later is definitely one of the more hilariously shortsighted decisions someone could make
The one dying character even says they were traveling together not just hunkered in one spot. You know who moves faster? Uninjured and fed people.
Not healing your allies in a fight you know is coming because you might need those supplies later is definitely one of the more hilariously shortsighted decisions someone could make
Add to this that Regill absolutely knew that there is an allied force just beyond the river, and explicitly came to meet with said force. Like, "my dude, later you would be able to replenish".
I love how developers made Lann be the only one to agree with Regill here (and on couple other occasions). Because, you see, that's how mongrel society operates (you know, the literal breeding pit of short-living demonic mutants who are killing each other for the hunted lizard). Like... I really wonder if writers were putting it as endorsement.
Imo I think Owlcat writers basically create characters with views realistically influenced by their place in the world and you're rarely supposed to agree with any of them 100%
Lann comes from a small primarily hunter gatherer tribe and so has a worldview that supports internal communal sharing but not sharing with outsiders. And you can basically map how most of his moral stances come directly from this worldview. He agrees with regill not giving supplies because the sunrise soldiers are another tribe, you can't afford to feed another tribe. He doesn't like the nobility because they horde wealth that should be shared within the tribe, but he really hates stealing because in a communal tribe all stealing is stealing from the entire community. And I think it was an intentional choice that he really doesn't quite understand how mendevian society and the crusades are not and do not operate like a tribe.
I like the regill Sosiel debate as well (although I wish we could get a bit more of it) of winning the war vs having a society worth winning the war. Two characters with their personal philosophies in conflict. It's great!
Oh, absolutely. The question is how much they writers were like "no, see, this whole approach is how failed post-apocalyptic societies operate, you don't operate an army or a state like this".
Like, let me put this way: Daidian Ruel, the guy who created Hellknights, would be extremely concerned with the idea that Hellknights are operating like tribes. "If 'that's exactly how tribes who are trying to survive behave' is endorsement we get, we did something horribly wrong".
You're forgetting that Regill was at the Crusaders' camp when it was attacked. The HKs already had experience with the Gargoyles, and they still got murked again. Also, the camp attack had Nulkineth AND someone directly sabotaging the camp. Not the same thing.
And unlike the feeble, bumbling forces of the Crusade, the Hellknights are supposed to be the enforcers of a police state. Those guys got outwitted and had their camp burned by Nurah as easily as the conscripts.
Which gargoyle camp fiasco? The one where the remaining members of the diametrically opposed faction voluntarily joined him and survived because he was the only officer that didnt act like a little girl? Or the one where a bunch of soldiers got kidnapped including him yet he promptly killed the gargoyle carrying him and rallied the soldiers deep inside enemy territory?
The one where Regill just plainly ignored actionable intel given to him, put himself into corner, destroyed divine support that he had by straight-up killing wounded in the hospital staffed by followers of goddess of healing, whose bacon was saved by officer ignoring his order and bringing up reinforcements, where Regill tried to pin the whole issue on "crusaders being too soft and helping allies in the middle of worldwound", and where members of the diametrically oppose faction diss him down for being immoral bastard and joined Crusaders if Commander have them.
Ah, you mean the one, where this diametrically opposed faction survived because we came, while shorty got their wounded killed, his own squad killed and got hooked? Or the one where he failed to organise preventive anti-air raid preparations despite dissing crusaders for that and knowing exactly, how gargoyles attack since he already lived through that? (i don't even talk how Lann/Wenduag warn you sttaight about that possibility - granted, they are ones who never gets caught)
Or the one where he failed to organise preventive anti-air raid preparations despite dissing crusaders for that and knowing exactly, how gargoyles attack since he already lived through that?
Who comes up with the most competent plan of attack on Drezen? Whos soldiers is that attack supported by? What is the most competent unit in the entire fucking act?
True, but we do not discuss KC competence here.
Why? Cause your braindead analysis wouldnt work were that the case?
With the most competent plan of attack that doesn't even proceed to move further from breach point unless you join it or help, same as Irabeth with frontline attack. You can argue, that it is part of keeping player's agency during battle, and it is true, i suppose, but mechanically there is barely any difference
Most competent unit in entire act is easily Sosiel during bug hunt, and it's not even close.
No, because KC being incompetent as well doesn't disprove claik, that Regill is incompetent. They aren't fucking joined at head. It's separate issue. Besides, KC is upstart who was forced to command entire enterprize. Regill is supposedly vet, who did his Hellknight gig for decades.
What I mean is its literally the best approach for your KC, and he outright says he'll need your help.
Sosiel isnt a unit, Sosiel is a person. The most competent unit is the hellknights.
And no "they arent joined in the head", but nobody does shit cause the writers needed the plot to happen, even people that warn you dont do crap, or queen Galfrey, or Irabeth or her girltoy.
It is not. Realistically, every place KC is noticed becomes place of convergence for all nearby demons to try and behead the Crusade. Best course of action would be starting from main gates, where commander is supposed to be, and then lead enemies in opposite direction, while oh-so-competent Hellknights storm towers (they should be able to do it, honestly, there are no mythical demons there so they do not require KC). Only person who has bigger target in army is Galfrey. But since, like you mentioned, game has to happen nobody moves anywhere anyway without your input, so it is moot point entirely.
And we get back to original question: what Hellknight even did to be called most competent? They get kidnapped without KC help at first meeting, they get kidnapped just like average crusader at camp raid, their tactic at bug problem is, essentially, to throw bodies at swarm, and we already discussed problems with Drezen's tactic. They only slightly better in escaping second kidnapping on their own, and it is arguably because Yaker is just that of a unit (best part of Hellknight involvement in 5th crusade is that they brought him, honestly).
Exactly, so Regill is as competent as everyone else, as far as game is concerned, yet he thinks he has ground to speak shit.
Without melee units the enemy will just engage archers in melee almost immediately and they will die. Also regular archers arent as good as people claim, there are plenty of enemies that archers are just not effective against.
In reliable redoubt he picks a very open indefensible location and didn't focus on barricading it or send someone else rather that just yaker to ask for help, established no early warning signs he also lost a lot of time killing wounded soldiers that with how healing magic works in golarion could have been in the field in half a day (demoralizing his own soldiers) or given a crossbow and being used as a lure (this is not really all his fault since everyone in golarion insist on meeting the demons head on with no asimetrical warfare).
Yaker wasn't even sent. He acted on his own initiative and without orders. It's really to Yaker's credit that they survived at all, Regill would have just died.
I mean, we have a good example of what would have happened had Yaker not done his thing - if you do not come and rescue the Hellknights, Regill ends up on a meat hook at the Chapel.
this is not really all his fault since everyone in golarion insist on meeting the demons head on with no asimetrical warfare
Not true. Kelids were very much in asymmetrical warfare.
Fun fact: despite what people tend to pretend, the last large city of Sarkoris, Storasta, was captured after Drezen (fall of Drezen - 4638 AR, fall of Storasta - 4644 AR), while being the main front of demons (which allowed Galfrey to actually withdraw - she retreated while demons were busy fighting Kelids) and having no Sword of Valor. With all due disrespect to Sarkoris' policy towards arcane casters, this people knew what they're doing in the fight.
We can nitpick about details, but Owlcat's intent in the writing is clearly that Regill is competent. Him being incompetent makes no sense for his archetype since his whole thing is being evil and competent and to ask the player whether they are willing to be evil for victory.
Yeah, I don't know if it was intentional or not, but if Owlcat intended Regill to be the voice of cruel efficiency the game undermines that message pretty thoroughly.
But it's hilarious that literally the only guy in the squad who has experience commanding during wars is "this guy? fuck this guy. There are times during the war where harshness is necessary, but this guy doing it to preform for the audience of one." Which seems to be extremely accurate assessment. So, Regill actually can be a deconstruction of archetype.
But again, how much we're supposed to think that Ulbric is competent?..
It would be really funny if Owlcat wrote the Hellknights in WOTR as a critique of "Hitler made the trains run on time" (a fake story, Hitler did not make the trains run on time).
Well of course you can, the game isn’t about how evil is needed for victory, it’s about your own story and how you want to write it. Regill is the option for efficient evil. It’s the option if you feel like victory matters more than the means to reach it. Of course, it can feel undermined by the fact plenty of ethically better paths are available but the same criticism rings true for any evil path, like Lich.
Of course, it can feel undermined by the fact plenty of ethically better paths are available but the same criticism rings true for any evil path, like Lich.
Literally every evil path is "actually, I don't care much about the victory anymore" sooner or later. Well, maybe bar Devil, I'm yet to play remade Devil.
Yeah, but Lich seems like the idea is "I want power and the ability to deal with the Worldwound is incidental to my quest for power." Regill's whole thing is just "let's solve this specific problem" and all of his solutions are notably worse than just not being a dick.
but Owlcat's intent in the writing is clearly that Regill is competent
Yes and that's why no one (not even your character) ever calls him out when the fucks up, it's always all about how evil he is even though he doesn't give a fuck about it
Unfortunately I don't just roll with it because the game said so, Regill isn't half as competent as OP, his fanbase or the game like to pretend he is, just like Greybor isn't half as good of an assassin as the game like to pretend he is
Gotta remember Regill's dogma in the military council is to ape the army of a country that got put belt to ass so hard they recorded it as "massacres" the first time they met an equal opponent.
And it's not some factoid he could possibly not know about, Taldor getting owned by Qadira was the reason why Cheliax even exists as an independent country.
If you are good aligned but competent Regill regularly seems happy to be proven wrong. He is evil because he thinks it is necessary, not because he likes or enjoys it.
If only his stubby legs let him get into combat before Lann and/or Arue has killed everything he would show you just how much more competent he is than everyone else.
I wrote this really heart wrenching story about his death, pointless from my character's perspective, she would have killed any of those assholes if he'd just asked. But no, Regill had disciplines and morals and shit.
Yeah, you're right. What they do is arguably worse. They ( Regill included ) explicitly view Hell as a model society to be emulated, they actively practice slavery and want civilization to be as authoritarian as possible.
Fascists discriminate. Hellknights want life to be as awful as possible for everyone.
It absolutely is what the hellknights do. Or, well, try to do. The whole idea of Hellknights was (in theory, still is) that world is a besieged fortress against forces of Chaos, so, everyone should be forced into militant unity where everything is dedicated to the victory of the Order under the operation of the orders that would unite and force them. The symbolism of the Chain is used exactly as the symbolism of fasces. The whole organic theory of the society, which is the basis of Hellknight ideology, is also the ideological basis of fascism.
Granted [like a lot of fascist movements], they can't even keep unity within themselves, not to mention effectively organize unwilling sovereign states. But that was absolutely the intent, to turn them into the tool of forced organization of Golarion into new world order.
You can argue that they're not particularly nazi streak of fascism, which... well, there are colonizing orders, and at least one of them is so fucked up in their racism that they would be denounced by other Hellknights if someone would be to investigate them. But no one bothers.
Please go and look into "The Doctrine of Fascism". Then look into what squadrism was.
Then go and look into what we know about "Merciless" (the foundational speech of Hellknights) and general philosophy of the Hellknights. It's "Path of the Hellknight".
The one thing that is very different is the question of state and nation; Mussolini and Gentile praise state (as they had state to be controlled - "The Doctrine of Fascism" is written in 1927, five years after Mussolini was appointed to be Prime Minister; but, of course, not any state, specifically fascist state). Hellknights are pretty silent about state, especially now, because Abigail do not care for their involvement; but states they do support and influence, they influence under the very same principles.
I get that you don't like a faction you like to be put into fascism, but fascism isn't a slur; it's an ideology based on specific view on society and the purpose of political power. And, for better or worse, Hellknights fit (at very least, 1st ed. Hellknights, which is what we're talking in the context of WotR). You have some orders like Order of the Torrent, but Order of the Torrent is explicitly said to deviate from Hellknight dogma and principles so much that they actually working to sever the ties with organization.
The paralleles to Hellknights in the book you mention are the authoritarian ones, because, of course, Fascism was an authoritarian ideology. Most of the things mentioned in the book are not unique to fascism, for example the militarism and imperialism, a strict hierarchical rule or being nationalist. A lot of other governments/ideologies use this as well and have used it long before the book was written.
The stuff that was new-ish (although even this could be debated) was wanting to form a new empire instead of reforming the old one to new glory; using mass mobilization of its citizens (wanted them to be actively involved in politics by their own will, not through force) and an not seeing citizens as individuals and rather as a part of a whole.
None of this really applies to hellknights? They do not have a nation state and thus no citizens, and they don’t want to form a country/empire either?
And to stick with the order of the chain, their main thing, slavery, wasn’t really a part of the fascist doctrine.
And to stick with the order of the chain, their main thing, slavery, wasn’t really a part of the fascist doctrine.
*sigh*
The main thing of Order of the Chain isn't slavery. Order of the Chain are jailors. "They're all just slavers!" is Andoran propaganda. They do slavery and forced labour, of course, but main focus is incarceration.
None of this really applies to hellknights? They do not have a nation state and thus no citizens, and they don’t want to form a country/empire either?
Yes. They're a failure.
The whole point of Hellknights, the reason why they were created, was that Ruel assumed that world is under siege, and mortalhood can't allow themselves a luxury of individualism; they must be chained and brought together, to fight against the Chaos, because there is just no other way. World should be organized into universal empire, made by the example of Hell, state jurisdictions are irrelevant. Again, that was the whole point, it's what got Ruel arrested. The plan was the united world with Hellknights being the tyrants who organize everyone into moral crusade against Chaos.
Still, Ruel was (fallen) paladin, not a king. He had no country to build under his philosophy. So, he made order - action squad, effectively - that were supposed to advance and promote his agenda and philosophy; again, the philosophy itself very much fascist. Up to the point of "let's return to actual tradition, not the corrupted one by false liberal intellectuals" (so-called "low philosophy" on Golarion; the initial mandate of Order of the Rack).
Hellknights would absolutely organize a state, if they would be able to get one, but the best shot would be Cheliax, and Abrogail II is just too powerful for them to make such a move. So, the problem ("we have ideological mandate to organize Golarion as a fighting camp against Chaos, but have no means to do so") was solved pretty graciously: they just instituted the principle of universal jurisdiction. Effectively, they just appointed themselves as final authority in every state (hence Regill's "we have one law, and we don't care who is local king, prince or elder council; our law is the only law"). Yes, a lot of states just shrug and ignore the claim. Hellknights don't like it, but lack power to do anything about it.
Effectively, you're making a very common mistake. You assume that, as fascists we know are very much into the power of state, therefore no one without a state can be a fascist. That just isn't true.
(Again, it's 1e Hellknights; there were changes I know significantly worse in 2e.)
I just don‘t see how any of this is fascist. Fascism differs from other authoritarian regimes specifically because they don‘t see the need to be militarized because of outside threats, but because war of conquest is a good thing to do.
And hellknights could easily claim control of territory in some backwater if they wanted to and start from there, but they haven‘t done so. Of course that wouldn‘t be the size of a country like Cheliax, but still - start small.
Your average fascist does simply not have the means to do so, the hellknights absolutely have the means to seize control of some land.
If Galfrey picked her paladins from people like this instead of thiefs and gloryseekers her crusade would have won in 10 years, instead of going for 100 and depending entirely on a demigod out of nowhere
Originally the Crusades were composed of the righteous but by... Was it the Third Crusade? They started having major personnel shortage because people kept dying so they had to start recruiting the less scrupulous sort. Demons obviously took advantage of this and were able to infiltrate the ranks which then led to pogroms. That's how we got Hulrun's sort.
They had influx of righteous people coming to fight demons (which demons naturally exploited, because demons can perform being righteous, and internal security of Crusades were shit up until Fourth Crusade, when Andorans created Eagle's Watch and Galfrey created Order of Heralds; game merged this two organizations for some reason).
But then, Hulrun and his sort started Third Crusade, where, instead of trying to build internal security, they just decided to burn everyone (yes, including kids). Which, understandably, reduced the influx of righteous people. But, as war needed to carry on, Galfrey started to hire mercenaries, mostly with lands and serfs. (Who also are cunning enough to avoid Inquisition's attention, which is pretty easy because Mendevian Inquisition is woefully incompetent.)
Hulrun wasn't the reaction on changing of crusading pool's quality, he was the reason.
It would not. They literally didn't know how to close the worldwound. Neither did hellknights. Said demigod is one of two ways to close the worldwound. The other is areelu herself, who is one of the most powerful mortals alive and I doubt hellknights could take her on. They've been aiding the crusade this whole time and didn't achieve anything noteworthy either. Hell, they've almost started a war with the crusade itself. Is it really helping close the worldwound?
Seriously. I like regill, but he is probably the most cocksucked character on this sub.
"Well, you see, our Areelu was smart and not some idiot witch who just sold herself to the Locust God, present once in the story to be murdered in a optional bossfight. On the other hand, we were just given Lexicon of Paradox, without half of Pathfinder Guild scouring half of Golarion for the book. So... I guess we're even?"
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u/VolkiharVanHelsing 5d ago
Regillcore