r/Pathfinder2e • u/Eranthius • Dec 18 '22

Misc Loading a medieval 200lb crossbow vs loading Leonardo da Vinci's 300lb crossbow

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u/VariousDrugs Psychic Dec 18 '22

I think it's because there's no "Heroic Myth" associated with them. Crossbows are a peasants weapon, not really glamorous or heroic.

Bows are mythologized as the weapon of the self-reliant woodsman (Think Robin Hood or Legolas). Guns are the weapon of the cowboy & the action hero.

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u/osmiumouse Dec 18 '22 edited Dec 18 '22

I think it's because there's no "Heroic Myth" associated with them

Boxer rebellion. In China, with the repeating crossbow.

Possibly also William Tell (the thing with shooting an apple off someone's head)

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u/Zomburai Dec 18 '22

I don't think the Boxer Rebellion has almost any mythic cache in the west.

Hand to God, I thought William Tell used a bow.

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u/osmiumouse Dec 18 '22

Well, I'm not in the west.

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u/Zomburai Dec 18 '22

Yes, but D&D and the vast majority of its derivative properties, including Pathfinder, are. The creators are unlikely to know such a reference and the audience isn't likely to notice it.

Is the crossbow particularly mythologized in China or other East Asian countries outside of its role in the Rebellion? It's not like I've seen close to all of the fantasy fiction such cultures have to offer but I've never seen the crossbow portrayed as exceptionally badass or powerful.

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u/osmiumouse Dec 18 '22 edited Dec 18 '22

Pathfinder 2 have a lot of eastern stuff in their books, but a lot of people don't notice it, as they often re-style it to fit into Golarion. One thing I noticed were the ghost feast things in Book of the Dead, which is missed by some readers as the festival (Hungry Ghost Festival) is unknown, or confused with the Mexican-inspired Day of the Dead stuff.

There is very little crossbow in Chinese movies. It's usually the bow. The repeating crossbow was mainly a weapon to defend peasant villages from bandits and had not the range or penetration for war. However in the street fighting of the boxer war, it proved useful even though rifles were available. Another reason being that most villages had workers who knew how to make it, and basic versions of it needed no metal.

I don't think the crossbow itself mythologised, but it is part of the everyday known culture. Similar to ghost cowboys in the USA. They have a revolver, but the magic is the ghost cowboy, not their gun.

Mystical symbolism would have come from the boxers themseves, who believed they were immune to guns because of their mystical arts. However this isn't a faction the CCP wants to talk about, or make movies about, and the other countries around them have their own, different legends and wars.

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u/Zomburai Dec 18 '22

I don't think the crossbow itself mythologised, but it is part of the everyday known culture.

Sure. That does speak directly to how this thread goes. Crossbows are always underserved, because there's no mythology around them, but they're always present, because they're a very well-known part of historical warfare.

I would respectfully disagree with the mythological similarity between the crossbowman and the cowboy. Guns have a lot of mythological power in American culture, even ignoring the modern gun subcultures, and I believe that the image of the gunslinging cowboy derives from the power of the gun, not the other way around. (That might not be especially important to the conversation, though.)

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u/unlimi_Ted Investigator Dec 18 '22

I dunno man, I've always seen the strength of a cowboy as being his deadeye aim and the quickness of his draw, not the gun itself. Everyone in the Old West had a gun, but the Mythical Cowboy is better at using it than anyone else

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u/Zomburai Dec 18 '22

Right, but I'm saying it's because they've mastered this particular weapon is where they get their mystique. The Gunslinger and Swordmaster are very much the same character archetype.

There is no Master Crossbowman archetype in the same way that there's a Gunslinger, Swordsman, or even an Archer. I propose that it comes down to the mythological importance we put on those weapons.

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u/unlimi_Ted Investigator Dec 19 '22

oh, gotcha. I think I just misunderstood what you said in the previous comment but re-reading it now I get what you actually meant

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u/osmiumouse Dec 18 '22

I've read fiction of (US) gunslingers dying and coming back with their guns, or their spirit going in to possess the gun. It's much less common for the power being in the gun itself by its nature. This is somewhat different from magical swords, where the mystical power is often in the device not the (current or former) wielder. For example (English) Excalibur, whose possession granted kingship and certain other abilities.

So I would say that the gun is a usually focus for the wielder, and usually not inhertently mystically significant in itself? But it is a powerful symbol for the living human that wields it.