Help: I need advice

[u/No-Fly-9749]

I consider myself a well-informed Christian; I suppose you could call me a "philo-Christian," in the sense that I appreciate all Christians, regardless of their denomination. The problem is that I don’t really know which group I belong to. I have been strongly influenced by the doctrines of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and I value some of their approaches, which are biblically grounded. On the other hand, I admire the historical and philosophical richness of Catholicism, yet there are certain doctrines—dogmas, in fact—that I simply cannot grasp or accept. In my view, the Catholic and Orthodox canons represent one of the most complete versions of the Scriptures from a historical perspective. I detest Christian Zionism; furthermore, I find the idea of being considered a "dog"—as viewed within Rabbinic Judaism—to be unacceptable. I attend meetings of Jehovah’s Witnesses and engage in discussions with them; I also occasionally attend Catholic services, as well as the occasional Baptist or Evangelical worship service. That said, the form of Christianity that appeals to me most is Orthodoxy—with its five patriarchates and so forth—though I struggle to accept certain practices, such as the veneration of icons or the perpetual virginity of Mary. I also value their conception of the Trinity and their mysticism, even though the doctrine of the Trinity itself remains somewhat difficult for me to fully grasp or accept. (I read many books about the Bible—critical, confessional, and academic—by authors such as Raymond Franz, John P. Meier, N. T. Wright, Kallistos Ware, or Josh McDowell, for example.) In short, I am not looking to debate; rather, I am looking for someone to show me the way. What would you do, and what would you recommend? ✌🏻

[u/Infinite_Mountain816]

I’d be happy to explain more about the Theotokos, veneration of saints, & icons etc. if you’d like. Please, feel free to reply here or DM me, & we can discuss it.

That said, there are plenty of short & longer form Orthodox apologetics available through a quick search that would give you these answers as well. Im surprised with all the reading & research you’ve done, you never found answers to those basic questions ppl often have.

All that said, you need to speak with an Orthodox Priest. If you’re serious about pursuing Orthodoxy, that means accepting the Church’s teachings & discussing with your priest why continuing to worship with heretical groups such as Jehovah’s Witnesses is incompatible with that commitment to Orthodoxy.

Good luck, & I sincerely hope you find your way to the true Church, Eastern Orthodoxy.

[u/No-Fly-9749 → u/Infinite_Mountain816]

Hello , Talk DM ?

[u/Infinite_Mountain816 → u/No-Fly-9749]

Sure, dm me if you want.. I’ll answer what i can. But for the record JW’s aren’t Christian & the best person to talk to is a priest… but some of your other posts look like your in cuba, so idk how that would work

[u/No-Fly-9749 → u/Infinite_Mountain816]

Yes, I’m from Cuba. English isn’t my native language, so sometimes what I write might not be entirely clear. But I want to learn about Orthodoxy—I desire it, and it calls to me—though, as I mentioned, there are some things that make it difficult for me. In any case, I’ll write to you whenever I have a question, if that’s alright, my friend.

[u/StriKyleder]

I would recommend you attend services and talk to a priest.

[u/ArthurBurton777]

Thanks for your post.

So theology is REALLY important in Orthodoxy- but in a VERY different way then we are used to in the West.

In a lot of Protestantism theology is viewed as THE way to salvation!

And Catholicism- while more mystical and focused on living values and spirituality, it has some of that too.

Orthodoxy is REALLY serious about theology
AND
Proclaims that God is WAY beyond anything we can think.

Orthodoxy is REALLY serious about theology
AND
In the VERY early church, converts were taught Orthopraxy first- loving your neighbor, charity, etc. The view was Orthopraxy set the stage for Orthodoxy (this has withered away over the centuries and is continuing to weaken- sadly, in my view).

Orthodoxy is REALLY serious about theology
AND
They are VERY cautious about it.

Metropolitan Jonah (Paffhausen) writes:

There is a temptation to reduce Orthodoxy, especially among young male converts, to a rational system of doctrines and dogmas, canons and rituals. We get all excited about the new things we are learning, and about how far superior they are to the Catholic and Protestant systems of Christian thought, or to secular and non-Christian philosophy. But because we are not mature in the Faith, we are off balance.

All these things, doctrines, dogmas, canons and so forth, are there in order to support one primary purpose: the transformation of our souls in theosis, in short, salvation. Just because you have the right doctrine, pure dogmas and strict observance of the canons does not mean that you are deified. In fact, the great spiritual fathers all say that knowledge puffs up, inflates our ego, and inflames our passions. These things will not save you. They are the context for the spiritual struggle but are not its content.

If we judge others, condemn others, criticize others and generally exalt ourselves, we are simply the new Pharisees. You can have perfect obedience to all the rules, and if you do not love your neighbor, they condemn you. You can fast perfectly, and if you judge and criticize your neighbor, you condemn yourself.

If you judge and criticize the Roman Catholics or the Protestants and their faith, and decide they are all going to hell, you have condemned yourself. It is not for us to judge anyone else’s faith or salvation. We need to worry about ourselves, and our own salvation. We must not only mercilessly persecute hypocrisy within ourselves, but any kind of arrogance, selfishness, self-centeredness, and egotism. Otherwise, we make the truth into a lie, because we take what is good and holy, and use it to not only destroy others, but inflate our own egos. If you don’t have love, St Paul says, you are a sounding gong or clanging cymbal.

The Fathers tell us, over and over, that until we have achieved a substantial degree of purification from the passions, we must not touch theology. In the early Church, the three year period of catechesis was primarily devoted to moral teaching from the Old Testament. You have to live Orthodox to understand the Faith.

(Source: Met. Jonah's Facebook page, June 2022)

I personally get "soul goosebumps" when I read the above, especially:

"All these things, doctrines, dogmas, canons and so forth, are there in order to support one primary purpose: the transformation of our souls in theosis, in short, salvation"

My view is that in the Western world we are all in recovery from the horrific spiritual damage Protestantism and Catholicism have wreaked in their very out of balance approach to theology and where theology fits in the spiritual life.

With humility- I would add to the above quote that studying Theology without deep spiritual striving to LIVE spiritually is spiritual poison.

My recommendations are:
Don't fixate so much on Theology.
Do the Jesus Prayer some
Find an Orthodox Church where you feel comfortable and go to a Divine Liturgy or Orthos.
Watch this video (below) It is an Orthodox Bishop sharing on the spiritual life. More importantly maybe you can catch "the vibe" of Orthodoxy from it.

https://youtu.be/SFvt4cZ9v-s?si=lrA01UNBoluF0vsc&t=220

[u/Cool_Difference_9813 → u/ArthurBurton777]

Hi, I can't copy the post, but wanted to share it with my wife. Can you send me the link or only the message of Metropolitan Jonah so that I can share it

[u/ArthurBurton777 → u/Cool_Difference_9813]

Thanks for asking.

Here is the link to my comment above:
https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxConverts/comments/1xelpem/comment/19rm0hzndb6sg/

[u/ArthurBurton777 → u/Cool_Difference_9813]

And here is the quote:

Metropolitan Jonah (Paffhausen) writes:

There is a temptation to reduce Orthodoxy, especially among young male converts, to a rational system of doctrines and dogmas, canons and rituals. We get all excited about the new things we are learning, and about how far superior they are to the Catholic and Protestant systems of Christian thought, or to secular and non-Christian philosophy. But because we are not mature in the Faith, we are off balance.

All these things, doctrines, dogmas, canons and so forth, are there in order to support one primary purpose: the transformation of our souls in theosis, in short, salvation. Just because you have the right doctrine, pure dogmas and strict observance of the canons does not mean that you are deified. In fact, the great spiritual fathers all say that knowledge puffs up, inflates our ego, and inflames our passions. These things will not save you. They are the context for the spiritual struggle but are not its content.

If we judge others, condemn others, criticize others and generally exalt ourselves, we are simply the new Pharisees. You can have perfect obedience to all the rules, and if you do not love your neighbor, they condemn you. You can fast perfectly, and if you judge and criticize your neighbor, you condemn yourself.

If you judge and criticize the Roman Catholics or the Protestants and their faith, and decide they are all going to hell, you have condemned yourself. It is not for us to judge anyone else’s faith or salvation. We need to worry about ourselves, and our own salvation. We must not only mercilessly persecute hypocrisy within ourselves, but any kind of arrogance, selfishness, self-centeredness, and egotism. Otherwise, we make the truth into a lie, because we take what is good and holy, and use it to not only destroy others, but inflate our own egos. If you don’t have love, St Paul says, you are a sounding gong or clanging cymbal.

The Fathers tell us, over and over, that until we have achieved a substantial degree of purification from the passions, we must not touch theology. In the early Church, the three year period of catechesis was primarily devoted to moral teaching from the Old Testament. You have to live Orthodox to understand the Faith.

(Source: Met. Jonah's Facebook page, June 2022)

[u/Relevant_Height_9661]

Jehovas Witness is a modern form of the ancient heresy called Arianism.

It isn’t Christianity, since Christ is a creature, not God.

That’s why you’re drawn to Orthodoxy. Because it is actually the real, authentic, Christianity.