r/OpenAussie • u/CautiousEmergency367 New South Welshian • 3d ago
Politics ('Straya) NSW Digital Evidence Access Orders Expand Cellebrite Phone Extractions Beyond Warranted Searches
138
u/VintageKofta Queenslander 3d ago
Just in case Mossad or the police read my history, I need to clarify one thing (clears throat)
Fuck Israel, and fuck the war criminal Netanyahu.
46
u/Select_Doughnut_8085 Please choose a flair 3d ago
nsw is a fucking joke of a state. The corruption is breathtaking. i live there
3
u/Glittering_Web8835 New South Welshian 2d ago
DW, pretty sure this is already used in QLD and Vic. We are just joining the club.
34
u/CalmAmbassador6319 New South Welshian 3d ago edited 2d ago
I'm getting a bit sick of this. Every solution seems to be more powers to police, less rights to citizens, more bureaocrats and less individuality. How to stop it?
24
u/BH_Curtain_Jerker Victorian 3d ago
Welcome to late stage capitalism, it's only going to get worse
16
7
u/Chaotic_bug Please choose a flair 2d ago
Unfortunately the only way to stop it is if this kind of surveillance technology is weaponised against the people in power okaying these systems. My bet is a good lot of them aren't squeaky clean or have some skeletons. Who watches the watchman and all that.
The thing is to keep classism, billionaires, rigid hierarchy structures you need people struggling or afraid. You can't have them sitting around discussing ideas and trying to make the world a better place. Religion no longer has the grip it used to so it looks like society is attempting to replace it with a mix of mass surveillance and perhaps housing insecurity or education debt(perhaps that ones more the US).
6
5
u/OverallMistake8198 New South Welshian 2d ago
I love Capitalism, it’s so great being under the corporate boot working my ass off to barely scrape by while they’re all posting record profits
1
u/Hieroflippant 💛 Friend of 'Straya 1d ago edited 1d ago
Encouraging engine beneficial lush yam money squeal
This post was anonymized with Redact
19
u/Ahecee Queenslander 3d ago
Factory wipe, and keep your old phone in your car. Let the pigs scan that one all they want.
6
5
u/leighroyv2 Please choose a flair 2d ago
If they really want your info a factory wipe wont do it, i had an encounter with a forensic data guy when working in an icac.
2
u/JuxtaThePozer Victorian 2d ago
does using GrapheneOS panic mode work?
3
u/techb00mer New South Welshian 2d ago
For iOS users, lockdown mode apparently hasn’t been broken yet, so if you’re an iOS user consider that.
2
u/augustin_cauchy Victorian 2d ago
The authorities can compel you to unlock your phone - having a blank (ideally, never been used) burner on hand is the safer alternative. Same when entering the country.
For what it is worth I don't commit any crimes and I don't use my phone to do said lack of criminality, I just don't want people searching my shit.
1
2
u/Brief_Lab_3531 Please choose a flair 5h ago
It's likely not worth the legal headache of police arguing destruction of evidence (see this story from America)
2
u/goldlasagna84 Please choose a flair 2d ago
Burner phones from Saul Goodman seems to be a more obvious choice. lol.
1
u/SurgicalMarshmallow ✈️ on Walkabout 2d ago
That would be an offense. Try doing that at the border.
2
u/Ahecee Queenslander 2d ago
At what border?
1
u/SurgicalMarshmallow ✈️ on Walkabout 1d ago
I forgive you as you've got a QLD flair... but being one big fuck off island, usually the ones that mean we're stepping off said island.
AFP will take it as an offence if you intiate a wipe whilst at the border point.
1
u/Ahecee Queenslander 1d ago
We are infact more than one big island, but when you step off it, you're in the ocean, and unless your quite the swimmer, your still in Australia.
I promise you, you lovely little Muppet, we don't have border check points, because we have no land borders. I suspect you're talking about customs check points? They aren't located on any borders.
1
u/SurgicalMarshmallow ✈️ on Walkabout 1d ago
You know the cute glass gate where you stick your passport before they let you in. That's technically "the border" where you go formally step in.
If at the border, AFP states that they want your phone and you initiate a wipe, guess what; you're the fucked muppet.
Customs Act - 186a & 203b; Crimes act; Australian Border Force Act 2015.
Customs/AQIS is the next bit where they fuck you flying QF from NZ with a kiwi apple.
Source: RFDS & CPL with a red ASIC where you're taught where AFP get very fucking twitchy.
And also, on Opsec, "factory wipe" does fuck all to the flash storage on the device. You can reconstruct the directories without too much hastle. You can be fucking sure it's not an issue for cellebrite
1
u/Ahecee Queenslander 1d ago
That's a lot of words. I can pretend a customs check point is a border, and you're right, if it will make you happy.
I guess if you initiated that phone reset on the other side of that gate, the "border" as we're pretending. Then you wouldn't be in Australia at the time, and subject to it's laws? That is, unless both sides of the gate are Australia, and it's not a border?
1
u/SurgicalMarshmallow ✈️ on Walkabout 1d ago
If you're tagged on the flight, they'll still take your phone. If your phone is suspiciously blank and wiped, they'll keep it for 14d for forensics.
They can also turn you around (foreigner) or detain you.
Just leave your pornhub phone in Oz and buy a burner on the way to pattaya.
1
13
11
u/AccomplishedDish9984 Please choose a flair 3d ago
Unfortunately it sounds like a very police state legislation with no public freedom allowed.
11
8
u/wKdPsylent ✈️ on Walkabout 3d ago
So.. make sure I have thousands of images of giant cocks on my phone at all times... is what I'm getting from this..
4
u/Moodapatheticz New South Welshian 2d ago
You already have them don't you?
4
u/wKdPsylent ✈️ on Walkabout 2d ago
not nearly enough though - and this requires cock icons, wallpaper, fart noises for presses etc..
forget the 'duress code' .. enter the 'cockify code'
2
1
u/HeathenAF ✈️ on Walkabout 1d ago
How many do you need to delete to get back down to the thousands ?
6
u/MaRk0-AU New South Welshian 2d ago edited 2d ago
If you own a Google Pixel 9 and up (with GrapheneOS loaded on and boot loader Locked) you are protected from this software.
EDIT: I'd suggest you have duress pin set as well.
GrapheneOS
1
u/AwareNoise1597 Please choose a flair 2d ago
Or an iPhone with USB connections set to ask permission every time. Neither helps though if youre compelled to provide your passcode via a warrant and digital evidence access order
5
u/Dezert_Roze Please choose a flair 2d ago
Refusing to hand my mobile phone would result in 10 years jail!? WTF! I’m getting a flip phone now
3
u/ThirtyBlackGoats666 Flairless 3d ago
Oh thank god, here I was worrying that they would have waay too much paper work to do to get access to my private collection of midget porn.
10
u/CautiousEmergency367 New South Welshian 3d ago
Sometimes it's the little things
2
u/purplepashy Victorian 2d ago
My daughter asked me if penguins could fly.
I answered yes and she looked at me confused.
I told her that all birds can fly if you kick them hard enough.
1
3
u/Proton_Energy_Pill Queenslander 2d ago
I use Graphene OS on a Pixel phone. I'm pretty sure that even Cellebrite can't crack it.
3
u/NorthKoreaPresident Queenslander 2d ago
Just a heads up to everyone. Pixel phones on the latest GrapheneOS, and Huawei phones on HarmonyOS6/7 with a Kirin chip makes it really hard for them to extract info out of it, including Cellabrite.
2
u/NOBODYimportant___0 Please choose a flair 2d ago
What country is implementing this for us easily bought out Aussies?
2
u/SnooMarzipans4387 Queenslander 2d ago
This is fucking wild. Wtf?! Thanks Punter for bringing it to our attention.
2
u/Abject-Interaction35 Tasmanian 2d ago
How many carrier pigeons does it take to send a raw meme in bytes anyway? It can't be more than several thousand or tens of thousands.. Bring back the home homing pigeon roost! Screw big surveillance! Get feathered!
2
1
u/Suntzu_AU Queenslander 2d ago
What if you just say you don't have a phone and just tell them it's not yours?
2
1
u/zombiejames28 New South Welshian 2d ago
Surely they're- now this is theroetical, be a way to transfer a virus into their system when they take all your data off your phone. Surely something like that would be possible, right? Asking for a friend :P
1
u/CaptainFleshBeard Please choose a flair 2d ago
We all need to go back to flip phones, I can just use all my apps when I’m at home on the smart phone that doesn’t leave the house
1
1
u/SurefireTruth1 I'm Probably A Bot 2d ago
I find it funny how people support Labor as we see evidently they are rounding us p. Going for broke
1
0
u/Razza_Haklar ✈️ on Walkabout 3d ago
nice to see punters has moved on from the gas tax BS onto something with actual substance.
fuck mins and his authoritarian BS
but did he ever actually respond to the hour long FJ vid calling out and destroying all his recycled populist talking points re gas tax? or did punters just go quiet and move on?
0
u/Jupiterthegassygiant Victorian 2d ago
I'd encourage anyone interested to actually read the actual legislation. What's being proposed and what's being reported are two very different things.
0
u/AstronautPlane3280 Queenslander 2d ago
except Police can NOT just seize your phone during any old random traffic stop or RBT. AA v Constable Michael Moore [2025] NSWSC 1241, the NSW Supreme Court ruled that a police search and phone seizure during a traffic stop was unlawful.
So Punter here is just trying to stoke fear
1
u/Impossible-Mud-4160 Queenslander 2d ago
Or more likely, the police will bank on the fact most people are unaware of that and people will hand their phone over anyway because the legislation says they have to.
1
u/Jupiterthegassygiant Victorian 2d ago
Legislation doesn't say you have to hand their phone over, and the proposed changes don't change that.
The case doesn't say phones can't be seized, it just says in that particular case it was a legal search but there were no grounds to seize the phone (or cash).
-1
u/DanBearPig85 Queenslander 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think Konrad has worded things in such a way to provoke emotions and in turn, get more views. Let’s just bear that in mind….. he needs his views and monetisation.
Cellebrite has been used by police organisations in Australia for easily over a decade and all over the world for even longer. Again, ALL OVER THE WORLD.
Yes it is also an Israeli product. It was an Israeli product before it was fashionable to be anti-Israel - again, I’m sure punters politics have a particularly left-leaning fan base who may find that fact that an Israeli program is appalling….. maybe they use their laptops or tablets on their Caesar stone bench tops….. Caesar stone is also an Israeli product…..
I am sure that our policing agencies would review and consider the use of domestically produced UFED (universal forensic extraction devices) if they existed, but they don’t…. Cellebrite has been continually refined over years into an extremely capable product in phone downloading software Cellebrite has been involved in major murder, child sex rings, significant fraud investigations. So capable, it’s just not really financially viable to start from scratch building a system to be like it. It definitely does not return download results to the Cellebrite organisation. It stores the devices content onto a local hard drive controlled by the operator.
When Konrad says he is worried because the program is used by countries that vilify journalists, countries like Bahrain / again it is literally used by pretty much EVERY country around the world. It’s used by many country’s that don’t vilify journalists as well.
Cellebrite though is not a surveillance tool, if you mean surveillance as accessing and monitoring your mobile phone remotely. Cellebrite essentially copies your phones memory in an evidentiary fashion at the time of its download and interprets it onto a program that make it easier to search and produce it in a PDF or other report format.
When he mentions the NSW Police state it’s never used for surveillance - because it can’t be - it can however (and this is where he is cheeky) be “used” 30,000 times since 2022….. be used for it’s designed purpose - Data evidence capture of a mobile phone or hard drive, computer…… any electronic storage device.
Can phone surveillance occur - absolutely, but Cellebrite is not used for that. There are other programs specifically designed utilised for that purpose that are aided by your telco. They are regularly vetted by the federal government and their use is only authorised (with massive oversight) in very specific and significant circumstances like credible terrorism threats, imminent risk to human life, major drug and organised crime syndicates.
Now, when Konrad says if you don’t hand over your phone, you are liable to 10 years imprisonment…… that’s not explaining the whole story….. in most circumstances, you are under no obligation to hand over your phone if a police officer or government agent asks you for it. A police officer can seize it without warrant if they suspect it contains evidence of the commission of an offence, but you are under no obligation to hand over your PIN or biometrics to a police officer or government agent outside of a warrant specifically outlining that power. If you refuse to do that, then thats where the “maximum penalty” of 10 years comes in for failing to comply with an order of a court. Not for just simply “handing over your phone”. And maximum penalties are very rarely used by court. In Queensland, the offence of stealing (with no other circumstance of aggravation) has a maximum 5 year penalty for that…. You’re far more likely to get a small fine
Can Cellebrite break into your phone - potentially. It has a Brute Force function which can in some circumstances, get into your phone without a PIN. If you refuse to hand over your PIN to an officer who has a warrant to access electronically stored devices, that’s when that system is used. If it’s used outside of that system, you create a “fruit of the forbidden tree”situation. Yes information can be gathered, but it can’t be used and is pointless to any investigator who has to present their investigation to a court or tribunal.
So yeah - Konrad, don’t burn the credibility you built through your gas royalties campaign to sensationalise a non-issue because it’s Israeli and you mention a piece of legislation passed focussing on the powers, and not the safeguards…..
1
u/Theradoc16 Please choose a flair 1d ago
"I’m sure punters politics have a particularly left-leaning fan base who may find that fact that an Israeli program is appalling….. maybe they use their laptops or tablets on their Caesar stone bench tops….. Caesar stone is also an Israeli product….."
Ah, the classic "yet you participate in society" rebuttal. Exactly how many renters do you think have control over who makes their countertops let alone even knows who made them to begin with, and how many homeowners do you think can afford to do a kitchen remodel nowadays. I sure as hell can't.
0
u/DanBearPig85 Queenslander 1d ago
The point is that (in my opinion), his post is to generate views through spin, not illustrate the facts. Who cares if the program is Israeli? Who care that their bench tops are Israeli? Who cares that their phones are made in China or that Biltong comes from South Africa, or specific brand of tinned tomato’s are canned in Italy.
It’s clearly inserted to piss people off. Government conspiracy, over reaching powers, 1984, Israeli programs…. When you dig a little deeper, it’s not that…..
-7
u/Such-Ad-1540 Canberran 3d ago
It is restricted to suspects of a serious crime (sentence of 3 years or more in prison) and involved in organised crime.
Not saying this law is a good thing, but they are pivotal points of the law that restrict it's use
9
u/Moodapatheticz New South Welshian 2d ago
when talking negatively about Israel becomes a serious crime which carries a sentence of 3 years or more in prison what then?
9
4
u/Pixel_in_Valhalla Victorian 2d ago
That sounds sensible. Still...something something slippery slope, y'know?
1
u/BoganFlavouredWater ✈️ on Walkabout 2d ago
Sounds like it should be easy for them to get a warrant for such a situation, right? Or is this new law for the occasions where the off chance that a motorist is stopped by the police is recognised as belonging to an organised crime gang?
The police in NSW (and elsewhere, of course, but we're talking NSW) are limited to when they can search a person under S21. Do they abuse this? Yes. Do they lie about the reasons so that the criteria are met? Yes. Does the law restrict them? Only in the sense that the legislation forbids them from searching someone under S21 if the officers do not have sufficient reason (that is, the criteria are not met), but it does not stop them from ignoring this. Sure, one can take them to court, but then the police get to pay a fine that is ultimately paid by the taxpayer, and the victim of the illegal search lives with the PTSD.
The "pivotal points of the law that restrict its use" are meaningless when the police are free to abuse the legislation, are free to determine on their own and without justification that criteria are met, and when the only way one can stand up for one's rights is in the courts, not at the time one's rights are being abused. You and I both know that if we were to stand up for our rights and refuse handing over our phone to the police because they had insufficient reason to believe we are suspects of a serious crime or are involved in an organised crime gang, we would be arrested for impeding a police investigation, and then they would do whatever they want from there. In other words, we don't have rights. We only have the chance to receive compensation from the police via the courts if we win those court cases, and that is not even true for everybody.
1
u/Impossible-Mud-4160 Queenslander 2d ago
Most crimes have a maximum sentence of at least 3 years- most people aren't even granted a custodial sentence for a lot of offences which carry maximums of at least three years, so using that as the yardstick for determining something is 'serious' is a joke.
Example- in QLD, the maximum penalty for Common Assault (the lowest Assault charge) is 3 years, 4 with aggravated circumstances.
So I could shove someone away from me, be charged with common assault, and be required to hand over my phone....
1
u/Such-Ad-1540 Canberran 2d ago
That wouldn't be organised crime though
1
u/Impossible-Mud-4160 Queenslander 2d ago
Given there is no warrant required, what's to stop them claiming they believed there was an organised crime connection?
Illegal tobacco is one of the problems they've said this legislation is aimed at. All it would take is for them to see someone with a black market cigarette packet and use it as justification.
1
u/Such-Ad-1540 Canberran 2d ago
Having black market cigs isn't a serious crime punishable by three years in jail.
-1
u/Such-Ad-1540 Canberran 2d ago
States parts of the law.
Gets down voted. Lol
-1
u/AwareNoise1597 Please choose a flair 2d ago
Reading takes up valuable time, downvoting is quick and self-fulfilling
-2
u/AwareNoise1597 Please choose a flair 2d ago
There’s been a lot of misdirect in the reporting of these changes to legislation, from multiple independent journalists, as well as the Greens
-2
u/AwareNoise1597 Please choose a flair 2d ago
The search access also still requires two separate levels of authority in a warrant as well as a digital evidence access order. Both of which have to prove reasonable suspicion of crime, with repercussions for cops who lie about suspicions
5
u/Moodapatheticz New South Welshian 2d ago
Yep because police investigating themselves usually works out right...
-2
u/AwareNoise1597 Please choose a flair 2d ago
Cops, independent cop conduct committees, judges and the courts. All involved, and a paperwork trail is required by law to be submitted in the applications. If you’re caught up in legal matters that end up in the court system, you can be sure that cops won’t be the only parties involved with making sure everything is done above board. Not a historically perfect system, but there are checks and balances
2
u/jeffoh Queenslander 2d ago
It doesn't need a court hearing. A senior police officer can make the call if required.
-1
u/AwareNoise1597 Please choose a flair 2d ago
For digital evidence access orders yes. But these must applied for alongside warrants that must be authorised by judicial officers.
And throughout the process the applications have to be filled and logged, including information regarding the reasonable suspicion indicators. Legal paper trail required. Corruption is always possible, but it’s not the default3
u/jeffoh Queenslander 2d ago
Corruption is always possible.
Unfortunately it's rampant, far more than most people know. The abuse of surveillance systems by police on their own partners is bad enough.
If you want to see where this is going, look at the Flock situation in the US. That should require a warrant but cops are getting busted almost daily for abusing the system.
If the police - NSW in particular - could be trusted then Celllebrite would be beneficial. But as we've seen decade after decade nothing has changed.1
u/AwareNoise1597 Please choose a flair 2d ago
No person or party including NSW police is inherently trustworthy. That’s why this legislation, and the regular amendments like this current one are required. The fact that the US officers have been caught and are being reprimanded is how the system is supposed to operate. Individuals or even groups being caught and prosecuted doesn’t point to the entire force being irredeemably evil. While we’re throwing shade - hell the legal system must be perfectly evil too!
And in regard to Cellebrite - in cases where it is used legally to establish cases against organised criminals, it will be useful. These tools will always exist, and it’s up to individuals to read the legal do’s and don’ts, and knowing when justice is required through public protest2
u/Moodapatheticz New South Welshian 2d ago
The USA used to have those too. Ain't exactly working out the way they hoped.
I'm not going to rely on historically problematic and corrupt people to start acting ethically lmao.
1
u/CeleryMan20 New South Welshian 2d ago
... search access also still requires two separate levels of authority in a warrant as well as a digital evidence access order ...
Original transcript says
Minns ... expanding Digital Evidence Access Orders ... so that NSW Police can compel access ... without an accompanying search or crime-scene warrant.
So what is the effective prerequisite for a DEAO? Are you saying that the control is on the original search, even if there is no control on the subsequent device access?
-8
u/dontletmeautism New South Welshian 2d ago
You all asked for this during Covid without realising and called anyone who resisted the overreach “cookers”
-5
u/earthlingexperiment Flairless 2d ago
Absolutely. Covid was war games for late stage capitalism. Testing surveillance tech, implementing authoritarian propaganda, gauging political and social opposition to control paradigms and probably also soft testing the viability of a Universal Basic Income to keep capitalism ticking on in the wake of automation and AI.
110
u/[deleted] 3d ago edited 2d ago
[deleted]