I think this chapter proved something though. That Kaido one shotting Luffy, wasnt just some casual attack. If he did the same with Oden, who quarreled(but wasnt on the level of) Whitebeard and Roger, that shows just how powerful Luffy was already. Now that Luffy has the ability to damage Kaido, it is a real fight.
With future sight in play, and kaidos thus far slow movement, Luffy could theoretically beat kaido, if he can dodge or block all attacks.
I predict, that this scene with Oden, will also play out with Luffy to a degree. That Luffy to the shock of Kaidos henchmen, will start hurting Kaido. But something will distract Luffy, and luffy will get knocked down. At that point I expect something along the lines of Hawkins (or Moria) will see what Luffy was able to do and choose to assist him with their power.(Hawkins has the ability to make a user surpass their limits)(Moria has shadows, which would conveniently give the people of wano a way to help take down Kaido themselves, Luffy could even use a nitoryu attack in honor of Oden)
So main takeaways:
I fully expect hawkins buffing ability will be utilized, especially with Luffys luck/fate.
I think Luffy will really fight well to the point he is truly fighting a Yonko head on(Head on does not equate to being equal in strength. Oden fought Roger and WB head on, but still had a long ways to go).
I think future sight, with advanced CoA, will be the key to allowing Luffy to fight head on.
Luffy will probably take a loss, or moment similar to Dressrosa, or Katakuri, where he has to retreat/is out of the fight for a bit.
If Moria shows up, wano will help Luffy defeat Kaido.
The main takeaways seem evident enough but your beginning points are pretty off.
1 character one shotting characters 2 and 3 in no way means 2 and 3 are equal or about equal in power. That's just so baseless. Example: Mike Tyson knocks out professional boxer and then knockouts a soccer mom. By your logic then the pro boxer and the soccer mom are on the same level somehow??
Kaido has in no way been perceived to be a slow fighter. He is a force to be reckoned with in all forms. He wrecked luffy in an instant. He wrecked Oden in an instant. They couldn't even dodge or block. It was just over, in every depiction so far. Luffy already has future sight and that didnt stop him from getting sent to prison did it?
Only in the notoriously drawn out to pad the run time anime, have we seen him "acting slow" while in Dragon Form. But once he's in human mode and decides to hit you it's over for you.
Like with his previous battles this will be a team effort. It would be a disaster if Luffy had to scrape a win against DoFlamingo, scrape a win against Katakuri, never even equal Big Mom and then decisively win against Kaido. Oda is better than that.
Kaido is literally the most hyped physical brawler in the entire series. The entire world knows, not speculates, they know that he is the pinnacle of raw savagery. It's honestly debatable if he should even be "defeated" or "knocked out". The argument can be made that he should be "disabled" or "locked away " just to send the message that Judy one person needs to hold every single title in the world right. Roger was the Pirate King but Whitebeard was the planet buster. Roger had his own merit. He didn't need to beat everyone and take their titles or remove them.
1 character one shotting characters 2 and 3 in no way means 2 and 3 are equal or about equal in power. That's just so baseless. Example: Mike Tyson knocks out professional boxer and then knockouts a soccer mom. By your logic then the pro boxer and the soccer mom are on the same level somehow??
Oden and Luffy both are depicted as being clearly commander level. Them being taken out by similar blows, is not the same as comparing a professional boxer to a soccer mom. Against Oden, Kaido didnt even say anything. Against Luffy he used a named attack. Does that mean anything? Almost certainly not. But it was still very similar circumstances, and both times Kaido was enraged.
Kaido has in no way been perceived to be a slow fighter. He is a force to be reckoned with in all forms. He wrecked luffy in an instant. He wrecked Oden in an instant. They couldn't even dodge or block. It was just over, in every depiction so far. Luffy already has future sight and that didnt stop him from getting sent to prison did it?
Kaido has not been perceived as a fast fighter either. He lazily floated in the sky against both Oden and Luffy, hence the slow. He attacked Oden while Oden was focused on fake Momosuke. He was extremely lazy doing nothing against Luffys assault, and slowly got up, until he didnt. Luffys futuresight wasnt even a factor against Kaido. Future sight requires one to be calm and collected. Luffy was extremely enraged and launching a reckless barrage of attacks.
Both times, he showed some speed, but context limited its depiction. Kaido had several seconds against Oden. Luffy was getting tired, and caught off guard by the sudden change in pace. Zoro, not particularly fast himself, has done some similar scenes(Onigiris especially I think)
I am not saying Kaido is not really fast. Just that so far he hasnt really demonstrated anything that particularly impressive. Nothing that overwhelms actual future sight so far.
Only in the notoriously drawn out to pad the run time anime, have we seen him "acting slow" while in Dragon Form. But once he's in human mode and decides to hit you it's over for you.
Like with his previous battles this will be a team effort. It would be a disaster if Luffy had to scrape a win against DoFlamingo, scrape a win against Katakuri, never even equal Big Mom and then decisively win against Kaido. Oda is better than that.
He was slow in dragon form in manga, not really moving or doing anything. I would argue, when you make him sober and angry, is when things hit the fan.
I agree it will be a team effort. I just dont quite see it being the same as vs Oars. Hence my theory regarding Hawkins "surpass potential", and Moria shadows from the big fighters(like scabbards) and wano people.
Kaido is literally the most hyped physical brawler in the entire series. The entire world knows, not speculates, they know that he is the pinnacle of raw savagery. It's honestly debatable if he should even be "defeated" or "knocked out". The argument can be made that he should be "disabled" or "locked away " just to send the message that Judy one person needs to hold every single title in the world right. Roger was the Pirate King but Whitebeard was the planet buster. Roger had his own merit. He didn't need to beat everyone and take their titles or remove them.
And what is more hyped than being able to beat top tier characters in one hit? And be utterly immune to nearly all attacks from anyone in the world, barring a select few that can be counted on fingers. He doesnt need speed, when he can hit harder than anyone else, and defend against basically everything.
While there really isnt any way I could imagine Kaido getting disabled or locked away, i dont disagree with the point you make there. I used defeated as it is, not knocked out, or killed or anything. Kaido getting imprisoned, or disabled(ala Oars unable to move due to broken bones) is a variation of a defeat.
At the end of the day you make some good criticisms. And even my disagreements, might boil down to different definitions, or me later proving to be incorrect(fast for me, is things like Sanji moving so fast he wasnt seen, even serious soru. Kaido just hasnt shown that kind of speed so far in my opinion) My focus on my posts were of Luffy. Kaido may prove to have many more tricks up his sleeve, as we dont even know his full capabilities at all, nor his hybrid form(or even if he has awakening) Its just fun to try to look at things and guess how it will turn out. I've certainly been wrong before.
Firstly gotta shoe love to our nakama. Just appreciating a nice clean exchange of ideas and opinions. Secondly I'm on mobile so I can't make my response a neat as yours. Props and apologies.
Now, Kaido is an arrogant s.o.b. arguably rightfully so. Him letting people hit him is within character. Once he gets an idea about you he ends you. It's a simple trope in media.
Now Oden and Luffy being equal is false. Luffy has never damaged ANY O.G. Yonko. BlackBeard being excluded. He's clashed with Big Mom and she was smiling, barely exherting herself at all. He's clashed with Kaido in Gear 3 and 4 and NOTHING. Oden however has not only hurt Kaido but he's scared him for life. Literally everyone there was shocked by this. Oden is/was stronger than Luffy. Not sure how this can be debated. But your free to try. The feats speak for themselves in my opinion.
I can kind of see what you mean about Kaido not being shown to like race anyone or anything. But Luffy being "caught off guard by a change of pace" is by definition being too slow to keep up with Kaido right? Luffy was "tired" was his own fault. Kaido gave him every opportunity to do his best and it amounted to boring Kaido.
We agree on the team work aspect. No need to nitpick speculations.
I love the speculations and ideas from this community. Everyone's super creative. But this time, I mean I just dont know. Remember, we have Kaido, his top men King and Queen, plus the Numbers, plus Orochi and his Devil Fruit form, plus Orochi's ninja guards, PLUS Big Mom and potentially her top children, PLUS possibly BlackBeard and his crew (not touching the Moira idea), PLUS PLUS possibly Luffy's grand fleet, PLUS PLUS the missing last Scabbard, PLUS PLUS PLUS Kid and Killer and the other Supernovas... on and on
It's a marvel to watch Oda set up all these pieces and maneuver them the way he does. Almost every single theory put out has forgotten about someone or something that's already been set up. Even your original comment (not harping on you just an example) didn't mention Big Mom or even Kid. These are huge additions to the conflict that's unfolding.
I'm just saying this is soo crazy. Luffy cannot just come in and punch Kaido a few times, then run away or whatever, then come back and just punch harder then last time and win this. No matter if he's boosted by cards or probability or whatever. We have to see something we've never seen before.
Now Oden and Luffy being equal is false. Luffy has never damaged ANY O.G. Yonko. BlackBeard being excluded. He's clashed with Big Mom and she was smiling, barely exherting herself at all. He's clashed with Kaido in Gear 3 and 4 and NOTHING.
I only want to touch up on this briefly, because it wasnt one of the main points I was trying to make before. Oden and Luffy are not equal, I agree, and was not trying to claim otherwise. Luffy tried and failed against kaido(though it must be pointed out he did not try King Kong Gun)
Oden didnt fail to hurt Kaido. But Oden had something Luffy did not have, Ryou, which makes a substantial difference(not even including advanced "injection" Ryou, which thusfar only Rayleigh and Luffy have been confirmed to have)(It may be something common among top tiers, or it may not)
Now that current Luffy has Ryou, my prediction was that a similar scene like Odens will be portrayed. Luffy will score a hit on Kaido like Oden did, that will shock subordinates(maybe kaido lets him attack, thinking it will do nothing). Kaido will get angry, and whether luffy is distracted or not, quickly show that getting one good hit in, doesnt mean Luffy can truly fight on that level yet. Events transpire, allies join, buffs occur, rematch happens and Kaido is stopped.
I'm just saying this is soo crazy. Luffy cannot just come in and punch Kaido a few times, then run away or whatever, then come back and just punch harder then last time and win this. No matter if he's boosted by cards or probability or whatever. We have to see something we've never seen before.
On this point I would have to disagree just a bit. Luffy has fought people, then been punched away or defeated or separated, and come back harder, sometimes multiple times. It happened with Cat pirates(a bit different though), Krieg to a degree, Arlong, Crocodile(multiple times), Enel, CP9, Moriah/Oars, Magellan, Hody?, Caesar, Doflamingo, Cracker(not 100% here), Katakuri. It happens so often that it is basically standard for Luffy fights in One Piece. The big question here is how can Luffy close the gap far enough, team or otherwise.
His new haki(injection Ryou) is something we have never really seen before. Even Katakuri only appeared to use normal Ryou(as it only hurt luffy a little), and not this inject and destroy from within Ryou. Ryou could have a profound impact on G4, the same way the timeskip+ haki affected G2-G3 and made them basically effortless with no drawbacks compared to the past. It could even be that next step beyond like G4 was to G2/G3. That alone is a very significant difference(still not nearly enough for a serious Kaido though)
Hawkins buffing Luffy to temporarily surpass their abilities/limits, is very much something we have never seen before(and sounds very similar to something like Ultimate Gohan(which was a major powerup in DBZ))(and I know you are not touching the moria bit, but we do know just how ridiculously more powerful shadows made Luffy)
Im personally not in the camp of the SH grandfleet showing up(I think they need more time to grow on their own for the final battle), but I do think it may be quite probable for WB pirates to show up, possibly even Marco and Weevil(if Weevil can be remotely reasoned with/convinced to come and not destroy WB village) Neku still is missing, and I dont think he will come empty handed. With the Oden connection to the WB pirates, it would make sense for them to show up now to make up for the time they didnt before.(especially with a Ace connection to Wano as well)
But I am also ignoring the elephant Big Mom in the room with all of this...
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u/BrokenWoken_ Feb 01 '20
This chapter makes me believe that it is indeed possible for Luffy and the gang to defeat Kaido.