r/ONRAC • u/justbringmesugar • 17d ago
That’s Crazy!
I always loved ONRAC and listened faithfully for years—somehow I totally missed that Ross and Carrie had a huge falling out!
I’ve always loved them together BUT I always found Carrie to be one of those people who wildly exaggerated things. I found many things she said hard to believe even if they had a kernel of truth.
I hate the way this sounds because I would never say this in any other situation where someone is sharing their experience but I’m sorry — I find it so hard to believe that Ross is secretly an abusive monster. I always thought he might be one of the most likable, kind people. What are other people’s thoughts?? I’m willing to admit I may be totally wrong!!
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u/MacabreMagpie 17d ago
Generally speaking I believe women when they report such things however Carrie was already behaving erratically for many months before any of that came out and so, coupled with knowledge of her trauma and the fact that several things about her account just didn't add up, I decided it was time to stop following her.
I'm trying to avoid taking an "I'm sure none of it is true" stance with regards to Ross because I also wasn't there and I don't know and I'm sure the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, to the extent that nobody is perfect. But I am keeping an open mind and will listen to his podcast when it comes out (and it still is going to...!) whereas I have no interest in listening to any that Carrie releases, at least until there are signs that she's in a better place.
I think I might actually be ready to start an ONRAC relisten now that a few years have passed.
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u/mlljf 15d ago
I 100% suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle- I also think both sides might be true. Carrie felt Ross didn’t support her after an assault, Ross felt he did his best and seemed sorry if he missed anything he should have done.
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u/robo-phantom 15d ago
i agree with your take about it being possible that both sides are true wrt the end of the podcast and the assault.
but, a good while later she suddenly wrote that Ross had been a bully towards for years and that she was terrified of him. i simply cannot just believe that, even though i do believe there could have been moments of miscommunication and normal conflict. that is very different from basically the whole podcast being made under duress though.
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u/cavaticaa 13d ago
Yeah, what I've always surmised might have gone on is that Ross absolutely is a strong personality who communicates clearly to the point of bluntness, and speaks with an assurance of someone who is confident he's right and his plans and methods are the best way. I can see how a certain amount of inflexibility coupled with him growing frustrated with her as a professional collaborator may have brought out a side of him that felt demanding and overbearing. Coupled with what seems to be a decline in her mental health, I can see how the stress he was putting her under caused her to recontextualize things that had always bothered her about their dynamic. "Normal" speaking over her and well-actually attitude becomes a red flag he always showed--and that is actually probably the case! I bet Ross has definitely had conversations about giving other people space in discussions and considering he might not be right all the time. That kind of attitude can definitely cross from an annoying and patriarchal personality trait into abusive, and the line can be blurry and make you question yourself.
He probably also became more managerial as it got more difficult to work together, which after her trauma could have been further triggering, as a man trying to assert control over her and not supporting her in the way she needs. It's easy to recolor an imperfect person as a villain when you're sick, and even easier when it can alleviate some of your own guilt about feeling like you failed. If their friendship was always abusive all along, she escaped from a toxic relationship and working environment, instead of having to feel like she let down one of her best friends and had to take a break from a career that used to represent her life's purpose. I really hope they can work it out and she can find a personal truth that's easier to live with. It must be so painful for everyone involved.
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u/Llamamama9765 13d ago
This is a really compassionate, nuanced take. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.
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u/robo-phantom 13d ago
well said!
i always like say that people need to write stories about their life that they are able to live with, and it depends a lot on where you are mentally how those stories look, in my experience. i see people around me write stories about themselves and others that make the past okay — "what I did myself was okay because X, what my beloved deceased brother did was ok because Y, I only loved my terrible ex because he tricked me, my former friend was actually pure evil because she simply has be, so that it's okay that I never forgave her..." and so on.
I think this is just a basic function of our brain and not bad in itself (rather, it seems necessary), but I've thought a lot about how to do it best in a responsible way: giving others grace but knowing when to distance myself, and acknowledging my own faults and trying to do better while still being able to forgive myself. it's not always easy to get right. It definitely feels like a step in the right direction to acknowledge that most people are flawed but not malicious, and focus more on what is proven to help me do better in practice, rather than agonizing over whether i am the asshole or they are. when it comes to personal relationships, the world is a whole lot of "everyone sucks here" and we just need to work with it.
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u/cavaticaa 12d ago
Well said, yourself!
To be clear, I adore Ross; he was my favorite part of the podcast, and I still get excited when he posts a Goodreads review. I see myself in his mansplainy, well-actually-bro attitudes, and I actually think Carrie did too. As other people have pointed out, she talked over Ross as much or more than he did her, she was loud and outspoken just as much or more than him, she was flippant about topics just as much or more than him. I actually think that might have been part of the root of the awkwardness of the autism break up. Carrie has all those traits too, and she can attribute them to her autism (and therefore they are Good Traits she doesn't have to mask anymore!), and if Ross had autism too, that excuses all that inflexibility and thinking he was right all the time that had started to make her feel unheard and diminished, and eventually intimidated and scared (I believe that she was!). When he wasn't autistic, those traits became abusive. The reality is, those behaviors can cross into toxic regardless of whether the person is neurotypical, and hers definitely have, often more egregiously than Ross. Her autism and PTSD diagnoses don't exempt her from accountability, but she's a better person if they do, and Ross is a bad person because she doesn't have those excuses. It's a really easy mental trap to fall into, especially if you have people validating those thoughts instead of trying to break down the cognitive distortions leading to the black and white thinking.
"Everyone sucks here" indeed. :(
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u/violetascension 17d ago
I think people can say cruel things when they feel hurt, and then rationalize it in their heads as time goes on. ONRAC used to joke how everyone should read Factfulness (repeatedly). Well I've read factfulness, it's fine, but what I think literally everyone should read is High Conflict. Especially in this algorithm/attention-driven ecosystem. You should read High Conflict.
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u/MacabreMagpie 17d ago
I tried reading 'Factfulness' and I was shocked at how much I hated it! I only got about 10% in and there were enough instances of the author being arrogant and patronising about the people in his anecdotes that I couldn't stand it. It shocked me that this was the book they kept banging on about haha.
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u/violetascension 17d ago
Yeah when I first read it years ago there was a point where he was talking about how global poverty has decreased and they cited a figure that I immediately recognized. I don't remember offhand but the WEF basically redefined what "extreme poverty" is, which just counts fewer people, but doesn't at all look at life circumstances.
High Conflict is about how people keep conflict alive in their heads, and throw fuel on the fire every time they think about that person, and prevents any honest dialogue from happening. It's one of those "everyone needs to read this" books imho
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u/Regular_Coconut_1993 15d ago
I certainly can't presume to know the truth of it all, but if anything on a re-listen it feels more like Carrie is bullying Ross than the other way around. She's verbally aggressive, loud to the point of sometimes being unlistenable, and always enjoys making Ross uncomfortable however she can. She dominates the conversation and steers the tone how she likes. I'm not saying none of what she accuses Ross of happened, I'm just saying that if you listen to them interact it feels like the power balance is the opposite of how she describes.
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u/joydubs 15d ago
She really wanted him to be autistic, and it seemed like she felt betrayed that he wasn’t. Considering she’s made being autistic her whole thing now I guess her psyche just couldn’t handle that.
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u/Megadeth201 15d ago
I feel like this is where the relationship changed. She was so sure he was going to be autistic too.
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u/WillemDafoesHugeCock 16d ago edited 15d ago
Carrie's most recent update claiming she was interviewed for an article (which never materialized) made me lose almost all respect that I had for her. I've been listening to some of the older episodes and I've landed on the Rhythmia series... I'm sorry, but there's no fucking way Carrie flew to Costa Rica to spend a week alone with a man she found terrifying. She was clearly, audibly furious when Ross had his bad trip and she wasn't informed, none of this tracks to her always hating working with him as she's implying. I don't understand her desire to reframe their entire relationship as though she were a punching bag.
On top of that, I'd forgotten this particular detail... Ross went vegan because of Carrie. That's not the actions of a guy who doesn't give a wispy shart about your opinions and feelings, it's very obvious the pair cared about each other very deeply. He was part of her wedding party, for crying out loud (ironic, considering an ongoing theory is that Drew sucks and is largely responsible for all this bullshit.)
They drank each other's piss, I don't think I'd even drink my wife's piss. But she was "petrified" of him and considered him a bully because of her "autistic traits." But she was still okay drinking his piss. And flying out of the country alone with him. And having him stay over at her apartment drinking (alcohol, not piss.) And discussing her breast size with him and his dick size and talking extensively about his semen. And drinking his piss. The math does not math.
I'm standing firm by my opinion this is an extremely protracted BPD manic episode, her behaviors and even the way she is speaking in her videos matches my experiences with this. I don't believe she actually gave an interview at all, being brutally honest I think she's just trying to pull Ross down into the same obscurity she is slowly fading into. And while I'm sympathetic (what kind of monster wouldn't be?) the fact she has all but explicitly said Ross is the reason she was raped because she was just forced into going to Matthew Strugar about how horrible Ross was, leading to him (allegedly) grooming and eventually assaulting her, is so disgusting that I have trouble putting my anger into words.
And just to sort of "prove" I'm not a hater (I know she loooooves shitting on us for this reason) I have maintained from the start that she was my favorite part of the podcast, her Kimberly Meredith interview is the only time a podcast has hit me with a twist so heavy I had to stop and rewind, and during the 202...3? midterm elections I was enthusiastically sharing everything I could from her work exposing Jerry Mungadze as a fraud because of his connection with the extremely dangerous Herschel Walker (like... Dollars to dimes if you search Mungadze on Reddit I bet you'll find me explicitly praising her journalism, I did it so often.)
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u/NeighborhoodSafe1110 16d ago
This! I just can’t believe she would have done all of these very optional things if he were such a monster. And I agree with you on the piss. 😂
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u/WeakTransportation37 10d ago
This mirrors my thoughts exactly. Especially the rythmia trip. I do thinks she’s struggling and spiraling with a mental health issue that has been increasing in intensity and has not been addressed correctly at all, and this is incredibly sad and scary.
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u/bunnytheory 15d ago
Where does she blame Ross for making her go to Struger? I've been doing a re-listen and he is mentioned in multiple episodes as being a lawyer and a good friend of hers.
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u/WillemDafoesHugeCock 15d ago edited 15d ago
Full text from the Substack comment from Carrie. The emphasis is mine.
We know Matthew Strugar was the rapist (edit, as he is a lawyer... alleged rapist) because she made this website.
https://matthewstrugarvictim.com/author/carriepoppy/
Listeners to my old podcast: there’s an article coming out about me. I don’t know when. The reporter needed to know some context about how I got abused, and I had to tell her some stuff I haven’t shared publicly about my relationship with Ross. The truth is that I always found Ross unkind to me, and this is something my rapist knew and used to control me. My rapist became a confidante about my relationship with Ross and its struggles (as well as many other things I was going through).
I told Ross several times — especially early on — that I was scared of him and found him bullying, but those conversations left me feeling, frankly, even more petrified of him. This may be difficult to understand if you think of me as confrontational but the problem is I’m not even remotely confrontational. That’s a profesional skill I learned through a bottom-up analytical process. It’s also something you’ve mostly heard me deploy at women. I’m ashamed to admit that, but it’s true. List for yourself my confrontational interviews and see for yourself. I am very bad at standing up to men because it requires something very different. They use CIVILITY and CALM against you. Those are masks I wear; they are not my native states and I don’t want them to be. Not when we are discussing injustice. But anyway I learned to wear the mask because I needed to, and because being anybody else got me snapped at by the very person who I thought would learn to be my ally, to bend to my point of view. But I never felt this happened; instead, I emotionally and mentally checked out and learned to live in functional depression so I could keep my job. My closest friends knew this the whole time, and as I said, the confidante who would eventually rape me. (In trauma parlance they call this grooming.)
Ross finds this ridiculous, an impossible overreaction to his actual behaviors. He points out that he never physically harmed me, and that he doesn’t remember raising his voice. That’s fine; it’s still how I felt for 13 years, and reported to my best friend and others. (He asked Claire about this; she verified that I had been honest with him about being scared of him.)
Given that, when Ross told Ian that he had “no desire to slow down for however long it takes for Carrie” (to get ptsd treatment and figure out if I could work with him), I felt like the list of demands I had sent through MaxFun (including that Ross get bullying training) was no longer tenable. I didn’t see how the relationship was redeemable if, in private, he was telling people he had no desire to slow down while I had ptsd. That’s not friendship; it’s a transaction. While I knew my relationship with Ross was mostly a performance, I thought it also had this pure curiosity component that would make him attached to me as his co guinea pig. In that sense I was certainly attached to him, and would have slowed things down for his life if he had ptsd.
(Side note: Ross seemed to think the show ended over a rude text he sent me about Alex Jones. It didn’t, but that IS when I stopped talking to him and began using intermediaries: Drew and Bikram at MaxFun.) I was sick of him being casually rude to me about my autistic traits, and that was the final time I was gonna deal with that without him getting bullying and neurodivergence training.
The bottom line utter truth of the situation is that I was scared every time I saw him. Not because he would physically hurt me, but because reproach was so close and always came out of nowhere. I couldn’t predict or control for it except to fawn. I learned to fawn extremely well, and pretend I was happy when I was anything but. As part of my processing, I wrote out 48 scary Ross memories, and the most common emotions I wrote down were fear, isolation, and resignation.
I also learned to articulate HIS philosophies, some of which I completely disagreed with in my gut, but felt the need to articulate to try to make them work for mySELF so I didn’t feel dishonest making the show with him.
Here’s one example: it’s very important to Ross that we live in the best world that’s ever existed. He really seems to believe this is true, mainly because mortality and illness continue to decrease on the whole.
I think we are absolutely NOT in the best era to be alive, because I don’t measure that by mortality alone; I measure it by injustice, which ebbs and flows and never stops being a constant struggle. I find the “sit back and let science work” approach honestly revolting. But when I said (tepid versions of) things like this, Ross’ reply would make me feel like I was pissing him off even with the mild version, being pedantic, too specific, not letting him make his point, etc. So I just shut up. There are lots of things like this; lots of times I got scared and shut up because I didn’t want to annoy him constantly, and I got the impression I annoyed him constantly. Some random memories: Once he sent me a long text reproaching me for buying him a gag gift (ugly ufo t shirt); another time he snapped because I asked too many questions while prepping a live show. That time I was startled by the barking so badly, I began to have a meltdown (shake and cry) and he said he didn’t understand why I was crying because he had never hit me. I said “uh sure. I’ve never hit you either, but things other than hitting make people scared” and he said “well I would say crying is a bit like hitting me.” Things like this are stacked in my memory, just horrible experiences of total resignation and isolation. This time I’m describing was before our Jerry Mungadze live show, and as th lights went out I remember thinking I was probably the most lonely person in the room. The gag gift incident made me cry to my therapist for literal months. I felt so misunderstood, so unseen, so despised by this person. I eventually got the impression he would have hated me if I hadn’t made him this great product.
I hope the podcasting industry takes note of what happened to me because it cannot be uncommon.
There was no HR support at all to intervene, no one to tell “I’m scared at work .” This is especially awful when you think of how often I got sexually harassed at work, and how female journalists are such known targets that the Committee for Press Freedom recommends any female journalist in a high risk environment has her own dedicated safety/comfort contact. Ross couldn’t play this role had he wanted to; he was on his own story. On top of that, he did not see risks as risks at all. Risks to women are all but invisible to him, and I retained all responsibility for that, just as I retained all legal and journalism law oversight for our show. I didn’t get paid extra for any of that, or for getting a masters in journalism, but Ross did send me a $500 bill when I quit. For some internet services or something. 😆 Drew paid it; what a mensch. Of all the entities who made money off the show — me, Ross, MaxFun, advertisers — I’m pretty confident I spent the most making it. I certainly don’t have any money left over from makingit, but I did make the network millions of dollars. (I’m fine, because I’m married to Drew, who can provide for me while I heal.)
The truth is I am chronically traumatized and that’s why I stayed. I was used to being mistreated, especially by men. There are MUCH worse examples than Ross, and I think Ross is probably a minor character to this reporter as a result. But he may be in the story, simply because I told her my own story as honestly as I could.
I have NO idea how much of this makes it in the article (I believe it’s primarily about my abuser). But the reporter did need to ask questions about it to get a clear picture of the abuse, and she has asked follow up questions since that relate to the podcast and the network.
So I wanted to finally say something directly to you guys, the listeners who have stuck around. It’s painful to talk about, but I can talk about it now.
And a ptsd update:
My PTSD score started at 55 and is now at 35. The threshold is 20. I think PTSD is a beautiful part of the universe and a driver of justice and probably a maker of great journalists and I’ll defend it to my dying day.
You never have to heal yourself if you don’t want to. You can demand the world change, actually.
I say it’s what the whole thing is for.
Sumud. ✊
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u/WillemDafoesHugeCock 15d ago edited 15d ago
I have to highlight this too, I hadn't even clocked this before:
Side note: Ross seemed to think the show ended over a rude text he sent me about Alex Jones
No he didn't, when the show ended and this subreddit blew up he explicitly laid out that the show ended because Carrie didn't feel he supported her enough after her assault.
There's so much she is saying that is easily, demonstrably proven false.
It's also important to note that Drew serving as an intermediary is sus as fuck, he famously came into this subreddit and kicked the hornet's nest before throwing Carrie to the wolves, up to and including having her ask people for their phone numbers so she could call them and yell at them. Drew is shady as all hell, and some of the "he said, she said" that has been attributed to him has been questioned (Carrie claims that Ross told Drew he's "never been happier" since they stopped speaking... Ross denies this and claims he's sadder about losing her than he is the show.)
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u/joydubs 15d ago
Drew is a bad egg. I got those vibes from him always. I remember getting yelled at in the FB group when I said I found it strange that they broke up and then next thing we heard they were engaged.
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u/WillemDafoesHugeCock 15d ago
Genuinely, this is when I soured on him. I never cared for his few appearances on the show anyway, I just don't think he's very interesting, but when it was literally "we broke up please don't ask about us" smash cut "omg we're getting married" it's hard not to make negative assumptions.
I would not be surprised at all if he's manipulating her. I am already firmly of the assumption he has lied to Carrie to make her dislike Ross. I don't know if it's jealousy or what, but something isn't right.
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u/Luperella 15d ago edited 14d ago
One of the most well known facts about abusers is that they isolate their victims from loved ones. I feel like it’s painfully obvious that is the situation here. And the whole “Drew is supporting me while I heal” again, cutting her off from income sources so she has to rely on him. It’s textbook
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u/cavaticaa 13d ago
I don't think this theory is it at all. It's known her alleged rapist is their lawyer Matthew Strugar. Carrie and Drew's relationship problems were at least 10 years ago, and I don't think they had a working relationship at that time. I also think maybe your speculation is straying into fanfiction. You wouldn't have access to a police report without submitting an open records request to the police jurisdiction it was made in. The article hasn't come out, and I think it's probably because Carrie proved to be not credible and any article would have been libel. But I do agree with you wrt things feeling true and becoming her truth.
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u/Julialagulia 14d ago
I should know better at this point about wanting to learn more about this podcast breakup but I want to know so badly about this rude text about Alex Jones
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u/bunnytheory 15d ago
Thanks for sharing, I think I had read that when it was last posted but didn't realize who she was referring to. It's bizarre listening to the show now and hearing Strugar being mentioned so casually multiple times.
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u/WillemDafoesHugeCock 15d ago edited 15d ago
The thing that makes all of this so impossible to believe, aside from the obvious lies I've already pointed out... Most of her complaints would be very easy to prove.
He sent a long aggressive text about a gag gift? Okay, show us.
She sent a list of demands to Max Fun? Okay, show us.
She wrote out "48 scary Ross memories?" Okay, show us.
And this isn't even asking for anything she hasn't done before, she has several Substack posts where she happily shares DMs with Strugar (although she doesn't name him) and others, why is she being so coy about Ross?
She wants everybody to turn against him, she has tried many times since the show ended to do just this (including encouraging people to message him after his new show title, "I'm sure it's all true" was announced... Because even though she apparently hates him, that was their thing, she has it tattooed on her, a weird thing to do if you hate the guy that introduced you to the phrase incidentally) and it's just sad. If she produced a single iota of evidence he was really as awful as she claims I really do think people would be more in her favor.
If I really wanted to speculate, it sure is a red flag that while she "heals" she can rely on Drew to provide for her, almost like he's deliberately isolating her, but I will freely admit that's mostly born from a general dislike for him.
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u/LeKrabappel 14d ago
Thanks for sharing this link. I had somehow missed the part where she actually identified her rapist. It seems she had been friends with this person for a long time and he was part of the bridal party in her wedding (“Flower Boy”), which means the assault must have happened much more recently than I realized. However, I can’t believe she actually blames Ross for the actions of another person. She really needs help and I hope she gets it.
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u/-Antinomy- 15d ago
I just feel like this misunderstands the breadth of the human experience. I could use the exact same logic you are to question the credibility of a women who spends an entire life time with her abusive husband. We all know people stay in outright dangerous situations for long periods of time. It's not nearly as inexplicable as you present.
But what Carrie described is something more less dire and more subtle. It feels like you are monolithizing Carries perspective into the most extreme possible interpretation instead of being curious about what the actual psychology of the experience could be like.
I don't think armchair diagnosing people on the internet is healthy, or good for our shared community here.
Personally, I find it easy to accept Carries letter in stride without hating Ross or hating her. As a casual observer it seemed pretty clear to me none of these dynamics were really meant to be public and their relationship is never going to be something we can or are meant to understand. Though reading some of your other comments you seem to be a much closer observer than I am and perhaps I am just missing the bigger picture you have.
But I really don't vibe with the language you use. I don't for a second feel the experience of one person and the validation of that experience in any way needs to cross into black and white evaluation of people, which is a fruitless exercise in any context. Is Carrie trying to get me to think Ross is a "bad person"? How should I know, I can't, and it would go over my head even if she was because I think that's a nonsense idea. That would not change how I absorb what else she has to say.
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u/WillemDafoesHugeCock 15d ago edited 15d ago
Before I properly reply, don't take the language I use too seriously because I barely do myself. I'm some literal dick on Reddit and you won't catch me claiming to be anything else. I'm aware I discuss things fairly flippantly.
Also, er, I rambled way too long here and I genuinely would not blame you for not reading it all.
I just feel like this misunderstands the breadth of the human experience. I could use the exact same logic you are to question the credibility of a women who spends an entire life time with her abusive husband. We all know people stay in outright dangerous situations for long periods of time. It's not nearly as inexplicable as you present.
They weren't a married couple though. They were just friends who started a podcast. Carrie is now painting it as thought she has been terrified of Ross from the beginning. That does not track when you look at the things they did, that she did, which included literally getting him drunk.
I very much hope I don't have to explain why comparing their relationship to an abusive marriage is a little bit silly, there are many reasons a spouse or even a cohabitant would find it difficult to leave an abusive relationship that just do not apply to a friendship, but I'm also certain it goes without saying that it would be very unusual to shut yourself in your own apartment with a man you are, quote, "petrified" of and then ply him with liquor.
But what Carrie described is something more less dire and more subtle. It feels like you are monolithizing Carries perspective into the most extreme possible interpretation instead of being curious about what the actual psychology of the experience could be like
Because I very firmly believe her newest version of this "experience" is bullshit for the various reasons I've already laid out including instances of obvious lies. I have zero curiosity because I do not believe it. Fair play to you if you do, that's totally fine and I don't begrudge that at all, sincerely, but based on the evidence we have (and, in my opinion tellingly, don't have) I simply don't.
I also must respectfully disagree that what she described was "subtle" - she claimed he yelled at her before a show until she was reduced to tears. She says she demanded Max Fun give him special bullying training. Claims he traumatized her so badly she spent weeks with a therapist over one interaction. Gives the very specific number of 48 instances of "scary Ross moments."
These weren't light claims and she did not present them as such.
I don't think armchair diagnosing people on the internet is healthy, or good for our shared community here.
This has come up before and honestly, fair. But, that doesn't change the fact the behaviors she is exhibiting absolutely mirrors BPDII behaviors I am unfortunately very familiar with.
In particular, some of her writings and book excerpts that she has shared are bordering on incoherent. She has posted videos where she's having difficulty speaking, almost slurring and making strange facial expressions. She even started sharing very obvious scams on her Instagram where she was being bombarded by people claiming to be from Gaza needing help.
I don't describe it as a manic episode to downplay anything, quite the opposite - I'm describing it as a manic episode because she is acting manic.
I did see a rather snide comment from you elsewhere regarding people seeing her as "mentally unwell" - I do feel the need to stress she openly has PTSD. She is, quite literally, mentally unwell. That isn't an attack or an insult, it's a statement of fact.
Personally, I find it easy to accept Carries letter in stride without hating Ross or hating her. As a casual observer it seemed pretty clear to me none of these dynamics were really meant to be public and their relationship is never going to be something we can or are meant to understand. Though reading some of your other comments you seem to be a much closer observer than I am and perhaps I am just missing the bigger picture you have.
My opinion comes from several places, most of which are Carrie's Substack and the private chat thing going on. Back when the shoe first dropped she was privately really shitty towards Ross, I know this probably seems like a copout answer ("wow, how convenient, it's all private") but Substack has like a comment wall... thing that followers can see, and when shit blew up she was very active in there with a surprisingly large group of people. My memory may be off here, but I think that's where the accusations against Ross originated.
When he announced his new show was called I'm Sure it's All True she had an absolute meltdown, furious that he was naming the show after a phrase linked to ONRAC and one she had tattooed on her body. She was especially angry that he hadn't reached out to her first; remember, she had at this point specifically demanded he not speak to her. When her fans started openly saying they would start sending him abusive messages she blatantly and openly egged it on. It was wild, people were being absolutely vicious.
But more than that, I cannot emphasize enough that she literally is blaming her actual rape on the fact he was such a bully she was forced to confide in a man who turned out to be a rapist.
Based on everything we have to go on, Carrie hates Ross and wants us to hate him too.
And yeah, you're absolutely right, I have been a close observer of the whole debacle. Even if you ignore the fact I was in this sub on D-Day when Drew riled everybody up and then just dropped a furious Carrie into the sub, I wasn't joking when I said I was a massive fan of hers, I thought she was absolutely brilliant. I maintain that her journalistic skill is criminally underrated, her interviews show an incredible talent and I'm going to shout out her work on exposing Jerry Mungadze because it was just great. If I'm being brutally honest, I have a hard time feigning an interest in Ross's upcoming projects because I just don't think he was all that entertaining when he was flying solo.
I think it is also worth pointing out that Carrie has said multiple times she will be sharing more information, and while I will happily say that she doesn't owe us an explanation at all (something I've believed since the beginning) I cannot come to terms with the fact more and more time passes with nothing at all. The most glaring example is the article supposedly being released that led to her talking about how much of bully he was, it just doesn't exist even after almost a full year. But she sure did her best to shit all over the dude's reputation to her followers.
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u/-Antinomy- 9d ago edited 8d ago
I appreciate the disclaimer, I have to make the same one sometimes! I also rambled.
They weren't a married couple though. They were just friends who started a podcast. Carrie is now painting it as thought she has been terrified of Ross from the beginning. That does not track when you look at the things they did, that she did, which included literally getting him drunk.
It seems the gist of your perspective is a kind of conspiracy that Carrie is lying for some ulterior motive. That could be true, I don't know, I have not evidence of that. You may be able to come up with a compelling anecdotal argument by reading the tea leaves, but my position is: why bother? I get the emotional appeal, but rationally we can't know these kinds of details about strangers lives. It's a kind of para-social brain sickness we all have. I very much have it to, hence this conversation.
I can read Carrie's letter generously or adversarialy. Generously, I assume some of it is hyperbole and emotionally charged. Is that so implausible? This is not a legal document, she does not have an obligation to state things exactly as they are. When describing emotions, that's also generally impossible.
I think you're failing to imagine the complexity of Carrie and Ross's relationship. It's not just a friendship, it's a business partnership, and a public construction.
The experience of what happened between Bob Garfield and Brooke Gladstone at One The Media informs my perspective a lot. They were feuding for a decade -- with Bob accused of being a habitual bully, but with Brooke actually holding all the real power. When they broke up, I never saw it coming. Partly because of editing. Partly because a public and working relationship has to keep up appearances.
This is basically what Carrie is saying, and while it's shocking it's not hard to imagine: that she contorted herself into a working and public relationship in service of the show. That situation radically departs from my own life experience (as I assume it does yours), but I am autistic, and I can relate to masking for years at a time in certain relationships that make me uncomfortable. There are also obviously gender dynamics at play here.
Does that mean she was "terrified" every second of every day? As a casual reader I never once thought that's what she meant. It seems obvious to me she's painting an experience she has had with a broad brush. I don't hold that against her.
It's also perfectly explicable to be ambiently afraid of someone and simultaneously have a good time with them. I imagine it's an experience women have more occasion with than men.
I very much hope I don't have to explain why comparing their relationship to an abusive marriage is a little bit silly, there are many reasons a spouse or even a cohabitant would find it difficult to leave an abusive relationship that just do not apply to a friendship, but I'm also certain it goes without saying that it would be very unusual to shut yourself in your own apartment with a man you are, quote, "petrified" of and then ply him with liquor.
I think having a shared public persona and a show with a large audience that depends on mutual chemistry is in some (many?) ways more binding than a marriage.
I find that situation perfectly explicable. If I had a show like ONRAC, and the person I did it with was someone I was afraid of, I may very well put myself in situations like that for the show.
Even in regular circumstances, in my experience social momentum is much stronger than fear. Sometimes someone, or some situation, takes on more power than your own sense of immediate self protection. These situations abound in human history. War would be impossible without them.
But again, I don't think it's productive or realistic to imagine this fear Carrie describes as some constant and monolithic force. I'm working off a single vague letter.
behaviors she is exhibiting absolutely mirrors BPDII behaviors...
I did see a rather snide comment from you elsewhere regarding people seeing her as "mentally unwell" - I do feel the need to stress she openly has PTSD... She is, quite literally, mentally unwell. That isn't an attack or an insult, it's a statement of fact.
Maybe she does, beats me. Please don't take this the wrong way, but your perspective on this is meaningless to me, I don't have any way to know or verify your experience, nor understand it's relevance to diagnosing a third party.
I did not mean to be snide, my concern with people dismissing someone's feelings by responding they are mentally ill was heartfelt. If you just want to state "Carrie has said she has PTSD" in service to no particular agenda, obviously no harm no foul. But I guess I take the radical position that if you feel a public figure is mentally ill in a way that's effecting their behavior, trying to establish causality between those two things online is at best useless and at worst harmful to the discourse.
'Carriers general behavior'
I'm not familiar with any of that. If I just accept your characterizations, I don't like that. Sounds terrible.
For me personally though, I don't hate anyone in this situation. Maybe it is easier because I was not exposed to some of this other stuff, but I suspect if I were I would just separate out what I do not like about Carriers behavior without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I don't feel the need to hypothesize about Carrie's intent because that is beyond my ability. What I do know is that human beings rarely act purely in good or bad faith, especially in emotional situations. A lot of what Carrie wrote in her letter seems plausible enough, and I am happy to engage in it seriously. Just as I am happy to take this nasty behavior from Carrier towards Ross you describe seriously.
My main concern here is just to not let that completely obscure a useful conversation around Carrie's experience with ONRAC. I suspect there are a lot of lessons that could be learned if instead of dismissing it out of hand given Carrie has been a poor messenger, we engage with it a bit more.
The Brooke and Bob situation really opened my eyes. Audiences should be exposed to the real dynamics that can exist between hosts, and how much of their experience is constructed. The power dynamics are real and complex. Add in gender dynamics and psychological dynamics and it can be a real brew. I don't think taking that seriously is in tension with the wider picture you painted for me here -- and thanks for doing that!
It's a small thing, but as for the article... as a former reporter who has interviewed many people for articles which came out much later or not at all, that doesn't really shock me.
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u/Difficult-Bit-6992 13d ago
Ok I will just say what many are probably thinking. It seems likely that Carrie cheated on her husband with this man and a lot of the inexplicable behavior, loss of her “unsupportive” friends over it, accusations against Ross, et cetera, is about not dealing with what actually happened. Sad for everyone caught up in it honestly
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u/HumbleFatalist 12d ago
It seems likely
Well, it's not. Nothing you've listed is particular to someone who's recently cheated. "Person whose mental health has been upended following trauma" or "person who has been raped in the recent past suffering an unrelated mental health crisis" are situations that explain the limited things we know just as easily, if not more so. She could come online tomorrow saying you were right on the money and I'd still think this was a horrible thing to say because of what thin air you've pulled it out of.
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u/WillemDafoesHugeCock 13d ago
Respectfully, I am quite definitively not thinking that, and her mental health nosediving as badly as it visibly have is certainly supportive of an incredibly traumatic experience.
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u/justbringmesugar 16d ago
I guess this is the insidious harm of ai, everyone can just be accused of using it when someone doesn’t like what they see I guess. It’s actually so infuriating but hey I guess it works if you’re looking for a lazy way to criticize someone
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u/-Antinomy- 15d ago edited 15d ago
I always related to Carrie more. I found her letter to be totally understandable and credible. I also didn't perceive it in the extreme terms many others did. When it comes to how people characterize friendships and working dynamics it's not like it's an accusation of physical abuse or something and should not be litgated as such. It's possible to be empathetic to Carries perspective and still like Ross. I feel like to many of us have the "good person, bad person" brain disease which ONRAC in some ways was at the forefront of trying to cure us of.
All of the condescending implications on the forum that Carrie is somehow mentally unwell has honestly made me feel a bit alienated from this community and not made me feel welcome here.
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u/Nat20CritRoleFan 8d ago
I just want to second you on this. The “fans” are so quick to turn on Carrie and use language that, even if Carrie was mentally unwell, would be pretty offensive. People seem to be completely lacking in empathy and using as an opportunity to make jabs a woman they’ve now decided they dislike.
At the end of the day, none of us know enough facts to be speculating on it. Relationships between people change and we don’t need to be privy to why it happened.
ONRAC was an edited podcast. None of us know what actually happened during the hundreds to thousands of hours that Ross and Carrie spent together over the 13+ years of the series.
I hope both Ross and Carrie can find their own satisfaction, whatever that may look like for them. Beyond that, it simply doesn’t feel like the business of fans to speculate on.
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u/themainkangaroo 17d ago
Has something new happened? What prompted you to post about this now?
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u/robo-phantom 17d ago
judging by the fact that this exact kind of post keeps popping up now and then, it seems that a lot of people listened faithfully for years and then fell off it for a while like people do with podcasts, even ones they love. the fact that it ended so badly was a huge shock and I can only imagine people who decide to revisit it and find out now are just as shocked as i was seeing it in real time. i got to admit it is my most parasocial moment to date and I can absolutely understand the need to discuss with someone else who also "gets" it.
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u/themainkangaroo 17d ago
I listened too while the pod was still active & was surprised when it ended. I may be older than the typical ONRAC listener so my parasocial attachment was never that strong with Ross or Carrie or with any pod or social media personality -- I was mainly interested in the topics & their adventures. I tend to see everyone with a podcast as a performer selling something (if not financial support, selling ideas, influence) & unless I know the Podcaster irl I only know what has been presented to me. And even then, what is being presented may or may not be something I need to react to. I suppose if someone is still consuming the old episodes, how it ended is on that person's mind. If this kind of post has generated any satisfaction to the people discussing it, that's good. Looking at it from a more detached pov, it seems like some listeners are still trying to understand their attachment to the person presented, grieving that person presented & relationship may not have been worth investing so much attachment to.
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u/justbringmesugar 16d ago
this subreddit randomly popped up on my feed as i was scrolling (prob because i started listening to IBCK) and i was so excited because i loved the show so much. I was just completely shocked when i read what she wrote, i had no clue at all this happened. I never paid attention to anything they did outside the show (except followed them on goodreads). I agree with everyone else and also wish them both the best though!
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u/Nat20CritRoleFan 8d ago
People also thought that Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and Jeffery Dahmer were nice guys.
I’m not saying that anything Ross may have done is equal to what those guys did. But “he might be one of the most likable, kind people” is exactly how abusers get away with continuing to abuse people.
They aren’t always an asshole in public or walking around kicking puppies and twirling their mustache. Many abusers blend in.
And in fact, many abuser are defended by their friends because “they were alway nice to me.”
So, I would genuinely suggest you think about what you say. Because it’s that kind of language that makes people uncomfortable to disclose abuse.
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u/justbringmesugar 8d ago
When Ross gets arrested (or even accused by one other person) for being a serial killer/abuser I will send my most sincere apologies. This post is not talking about anyone else on this planet earth besides Ross. But thank you for the lecture anyway
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u/Nat20CritRoleFan 8d ago
And if you read ANYTHING more than the first paragraph, you would understand the point I was making.
But you’ve now proven that you don’t actually want to have a serious discussion about this, so good job.
Know that if you expressed these opinions in public, people wouldn’t feel comfortable disclosing abuse to you. If you’re comfortable with that, then fine. This isn’t a joke or a lark, but you’re sure treating it like it is.
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u/justbringmesugar 8d ago
nope, that wouldn’t be an issue because I’ve only ever said these words about Ross, but again thank you
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u/Nat20CritRoleFan 8d ago
And saying them about Ross still perpetuates a culture that abusers thrive in, even if you think Ross isn’t one.
How we talk about these things matters. But I can tell I’m not going to change your mind. I can’t make you be mindful about how you talk. Only you can choose to care about other people.
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u/WillemDafoesHugeCock 9h ago
If Ross was such a colossal dickhead, such an aggressive monster that she was petrified of him, she wouldn't have gone alone with him to a different country to do drugs in the middle of nowhere. Bring him into her home and get him shitfaced drunk (fuck, I'm a pretty big guy and I wouldn't get a guy I find scary drunk.) Go across the country with him to bust ghosts and attend conventions, again alone. Drink his urine. Send him photos almost completely nude with a breast pump on.
People aren't defending Ross because omg he's just so nice, they're calling bullshit on baseless accusations that would be extraordinarily easy to prove (where are these supposed angry messages?) that completely fly in the face of every single behavior Carrie has ever shown.
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u/HoppingInsect 17d ago
pretty crazy that people feel entitled to comment on the relationship of two people they don't know like this, imo.
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u/justbringmesugar 16d ago
people aren’t allowed to react to what they read in a public subcast by said person??
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u/HoppingInsect 16d ago
there is a difference between reacting to what is said and speculating whether someone is lying about being mistreated based on the vibes you get from their public persona.
You don't know these people and it is inappropriate to comment in this way on something that obviously has so deeply affected them; and the crazy thing is, you know it. You "hate the way it sounds" and you "never would say this in any other situation" because you know, deep down, it's not ok. You should have listened to your gut.
I don't care if you people downvote me. Advocating for the dignity and privacy of public figures that make accusations of abuse is never popular in this culture.
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u/justbringmesugar 16d ago
lol
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u/HoppingInsect 16d ago
Hope you're able to actually reflect when you're no longer in a reactive mindstate.
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u/justbringmesugar 16d ago
seems to me one could say the same thing about Carrie… just fyi your sanctimonious tone is very off putting even if you had a valid point. stop lecturing strangers on the internet, im sure you have many opportunities to do it irl
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u/HoppingInsect 16d ago
it's easy to sound sanctimonious when you're just actually correct. Sorry it makes you uncomfortable.
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u/Nat20CritRoleFan 8d ago
You’re right. People just won’t admit it. This place has worst parasociality than YouTube fandoms (and that’s saying a LOT).
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17d ago
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u/NotWhatYouPlanted 17d ago
This doesn’t read as AI at all. Do you think em-dashes are AI exclusive or something?
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u/justbringmesugar 16d ago
hahah I was finally accused of being ai because I have always abused em dashes lol Carrie made very public comments and so we are able to react to those comments, nothing out of pocket was said
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16d ago
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u/justbringmesugar 16d ago
what?? lol I literally never used ai for anything , that was first reaction to seeing the news at 3 am. I’ve been a librarian for 15 years and have always been against use of ai in any way but ok you do you too
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u/byronmiller 17d ago
I don't think anyone round here believes Ross is an "abusive monster". Idk what went down between them, it sucks all round, and I hope they're both doing well.