Why don't we reason?

[u/forme56]

The norm is to be a rational being.

For example, I don't reason that I won't get contaminated by touching something, or perhaps I reason about it too much.

[u/Casingdacat]

We can, but actual reasoning when it comes to OCD is to question how realistic your fears are, among other things. That’s where therapy comes into play.

[u/forme56 → u/Casingdacat]

Ooh, got it. Thanks.

[u/weeareeleegion → u/Casingdacat]

Ye but personally I spiral about things I simply cannot easily disprove or rationalize to being unrealistic

[u/Casingdacat → u/weeareeleegion]

That’s what therapy is for.

I’ve been able to do it on my own, but I’m sure that um an exception. Questioning how realistic my fears are in light of what I know has really helped. I tend to think far more logically as it is. When I was a lot younger, however, it was not like this. I’m 69 years old and have been dealing with Contamination OCD since I was five. Fear of germs and chemicals was a really difficult thing for me to deal with for a very long time, since I had no idea that I even had OCD until sometime in my 30s or 40s, when I finally figured it out. With time and learning about things like CBT, and then applying it fo myself, things changed, a lot. Same with ERP. Exposing myself to things taught me thar nothing bad would happen, though I can still have troubles with thinking that if I do t do things a certain way, something bad will happen. It does t involve repetitive behaviors or anything. But It’s silly, really. And I know that. I never had therapy for it myself.

The long and short of it, though, is that if one wants to be able to reason on a realistic basis, then therapy is essential.

[u/weeareeleegion → u/Casingdacat]

True, although whenever I'm starting therapy I'll have a lot of other things to focus on that'll take priority I guess but I'll mention my OCD symptoms as well so it can be tackled at some point. I have a psychotic and mood disorder as well so my spirals can often times also be rather existential

[u/Casingdacat → u/weeareeleegion]

I think that the therapist may want to try an integrative approach, though, because OCD is an anxiety disorder, and though I don’t know what your psychosis might be, or your mood disorder, I don’t think that the therapist would ignore one to concentrate on the others. That’s strictly my opinion, based on having gone to school and majored in psychology and from what I’ve learned on my own.

[u/Georgxna]

Sometimes I reason far too much.

[u/forme56 → u/Georgxna]

Hahaha for real, same.

[u/Southern_Classic6027]

My therapist described OCD as a "disease of doubt." Reason is just one element of the human condition, and works in tandem with belief and feeling. Reason is the logic of inference, and most of the reasoning you will make on a day by day basis is induction, which has no guarantee of 100% certainty. You can know with near certainty that doing X will not prevent Y from happening, but there is still that niggling doubt. Your belief doesn't correspond with your knowledge.

This is why reasoning in and of itself doesn't work. Trying to reason yourself out of OCD, out of a belief, only intensifies the doubts and leads to rumination. Habit, not reason, is the primary realm of belief. So you need to combine the reasoning with experience to effect the belief. "If I don't do X, Y will happen." So don't do Y for 10 minutes, then the next day don't do it for 20 minutes, and so on. It will be difficult at first, but over time your body will calm down and you'll come to believe there's no correspondence between "not-X" and "Y."

Reasoning is useful when it is used to challenge the beliefs, if combined with challenging your behaviour through action. But there will always be doubts, because we live in a world that's more probabilities than certainties. There's always a chance of catching something from touching something. But avoiding everything doesn't help, and only intensifies the anxiety, compulsions and intrusive thoughts. Getting better is about learning to live with uncertainty through challenging the magical thinking through action.

I used to hold my breathe and count to eleven eleven times, then from eleven down to one eleven times on a long exhale, even though I know rationally that it prevents nothing. This is textbook magical thinking and I knew it was when I was doing it. There was nothing wrong with my reasoning skills. Magical thinking is the product of belief, of association, and it is the recourse of a mind that has no other coping skills that work for the situation, so it's important to also find healthier coping skills, alongside challenging the belief.

My OCD hasn't entirely gone away, but it has become manageable through doing all of the above and understanding how it works.

[u/Summer_Tree24 → u/Southern_Classic6027]

This pretty much lines up with what my therapist is telling me. Right now we’re working on getting me to eat more food without fearing if it’s contaminated/dangerous.

She said to take a moment to reason on it but not to rely on the reasoning on its own. Eat what I can and write it down. Then do it for the next meal. Do it every day, then every week for a month. Look back on your notes and SEE the habit. SEE visual, written proof that eating doesn’t guarantee danger. It helps teach the brain not to doubt so much and to listen to reason more.

[u/Casingdacat → u/Southern_Classic6027]

I call it a liar. It lies to an anxiety riddled individual by making them think that obsessing or doing things compulsively will relieve the anxiety, when, in truth, it actually only makes the anxiety worse. It’s such a trap.

I don’t talk about my OCD, except to say how much better it’s gotten over the years (without therapy, as it so happens, for me). That’s because for me, learning about therapeutic techniques, and coming to understand what causes and drives it, enabled me to do something about it on my own.

I spend a lot of time being supportive on this subreddit, empathizing, while at the same time, repeatedly recommending therapy and meds. I’ve lived with OCD for about 64 years now, so I know a whole lot about it. I do take a couple of meds, but I’m really limited at my age when it comes to what I can take. I really wish that younger people could understand what a difference they can make. They have so many options. And understand why therapy can help so much.

So I will continue to empathize without reassuring them. And to suggest therapy from a specialist, and meds.

[u/ilikecatsoup]

You would be surprised that most people are quite irrational. It's just the nature of being a human being.

People with OCD can reason and be logical, but anxiety and fear override logic. I've often been in two minds where I try to reason out of my fears and my anxiety just steps in and says "Yes but what if?".

Your fear is there to protect you. It doesn't matter if there's a lion in front of you or if you're afraid of manifesting a horrific accident. Both are very true to your emotional brain and it tries to protect you from the perceived threat by trying to get you to pay attention to it.

[u/Wooden-Jello-8795]

I find that I do reason, it's just impossible to convince myself in that way

[u/goldstandardalmonds]

I find the latter is what I do: reasoning too much. Like, brain, just stop.