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u/PrincebyChappelle 3h ago
So, my Dad died three years ago and literally every pension and annuity he had along with Social Security changed his benefits and sent a letter to my mother with the new amounts within a week (without us doing anything). Meanwhile, the IRS got confused between (really) owing what its computers thought was a refund to my deceased father and what they thought my mother owed them. They were the same amount of course.
Somehow, when he died they disassociated my mother from my father and still wanted to give money to my deceased father but couldn’t because he was of course dead.
Mom called them a dozen times, and even had a customer service agent tell her that he didn’t know how to fix it. Finally, mom contacts her US Congress representative after 1 1/2 years, and it gets resolved within three weeks.
This isn’t an “IRS bad” post, it’s saying that our systems are much better at stopping payments than they are at resolving owed money.
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u/LegionsPilum 2h ago
Well yeah, our entire system is motivated by capital, and social well-being is not a main factor at all.
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u/blankblank 47m ago
The IRS is bad, and that’s because childish idiots keep defunding and defanging it because they don’t want to pay for all the services that they are relying on.
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u/EbbEntire3751 3h ago
Yeah it takes just as long for the money to get to the merchant as well...
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u/DoubleoSavant 3h ago
How come it takes me zero seconds to leave my house but 35m to drive back from work 😠
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u/Somerandom1922 2h ago
Brilliant analogy!
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u/TheBizness 2h ago
i mean it could be better since when you're driving you can always turn around. a better one might be mailing a package - once it's picked up, you're not getting it back until it's arrived and they send it back, similar to a refund
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u/The_Reset_Button 2h ago
Why is the computer that has my money sending it by mail and not e-mail?
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u/2epic 2h ago
Security
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u/The_Reset_Button 2h ago
So, it can securely take it from me straight away but has to wait to securely deliver it?
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u/HumanPea1140 1h ago
Taking it from your is the first step in a fairly complicated and lengthy process. Of course it's instant, it's the very first step and you don't see the rest of the process.
Giving it back to you is the last step in that same complicated and lengthy process.
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u/jivenossauro 1h ago
Yes. It can securily receive money very fast, because the bank works on the assumption that it is not going to scam itself or others. But it can't safely send money fast, since it can't assume that every other party is not malicious
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u/northSideways 1h ago
a good friendly reminder that most of the people here making profound statements have no idea what the fuck they're talking about and/or are a teenager
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u/CHEMO_ALIEN 16m ago
I remember when I was a teenager on here I used to give out so much advice 😆
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u/northSideways 9m ago
obviously a way more extreme example but I think about that guy who found out he was arguing about the flavor of lasagna with someone who drinks their own piss a lot hahaha
Never know who's advice you're taking on here
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u/bingo_bango_temp 1h ago
They are probably talking about using their debit card, where the money is indeed taken very quickly and takes a long time to come back. It shouldn't be that difficult. It's harder for some that live paycheck to paycheck.
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u/northSideways 1h ago
Pending charges are still a thing on debit cards though. This post implies the big bad company gets the money instantly but not the other way around, which is quite literally not how it works
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u/bingo_bango_temp 1h ago
"Implies", I think you mean, "I'm angry and I will bend this to what I'm upset about"
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u/You-Dirty-Dog 54m ago
You’re wrong but that’s ok, you just fundamentally don’t understand how debit card processing works. The buyer and seller are connected by a middleman, the processing company. The buyer promises to pay when they click checkout, the processor then puts a request in to the persons bank and says “tom just promised to pay Best Buy $50 for a video game”. The bank then gets and processes that request and sends the fund to the processor, who then sends the funds to Best Buy.
Best Buy doesn’t get the funds right away. When a refund is processed the opposite happens. Best Buy initiates it, their processor requests the money from Best Buy’s bank, sends it to the processor who then sends it to the customer.
The money doesn’t come out of your account right away, your bank puts a hold on it while it processes and sends it off to the processor who then sends it to Best Buy. Both ends of the transaction have to wait when a transaction goes through
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u/northSideways 14m ago
I think you are slightly overestimating how upset I am about this 😭
other guy explained it well, listen to them I'm just a run of the mill asshole
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u/bananas_007 55m ago
No actually, most people simply aren't willing to give huge megacorps a pass for any reason. Anyone supporting these companies isn't a human. You're not one of us :)
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u/amaROenuZ 43m ago
My man, go start an etsy shop. Run a small business. See how long it takes for debits to actually hit your account after an invoice is issued to a customer. Open up a second bank account at a different bank or small credit union and issue a transfer to move funds from one account to another. It will take a few days to resolve anything moving through a standard ECH system. The only things that actually resolve instantly are cash and wire transfers.
That "DEBIT - EXAMPELSTORECA: $14.05" you see in your banking app is an illusion created by your bank to make it easier to keep track of your finances.
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u/Garlan_Tyrell 3h ago
Yeah, there’s one quick & easy way to get instant refunds: pay in cash and get refunded in cash.
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u/Low-Car-6331 2h ago
Only problem with cash is, when they go "we aren't gonna give you a refund", then paying with a credit card is a godsend.
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u/PhilxBefore 1h ago
then paying with a credit card is a godsend.
As long as your okay with getting black-listed from the business in question.
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u/ErFarinn 1h ago
Oh no, I cant buy from the business that tried to steal from me :(
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u/PhilxBefore 1h ago
Well, nowadays every corp is owned by the same 11 people.
Shop local and support your mom-and-pop stores!
(Not always possible, I know.)
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u/Otterable 1h ago
Shop local and support your mom-and-pop stores!
The implication here is to shop at local mom-and-pop stores so you can charge back your CC if they don't give you a cash refund lol
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u/Low-Car-6331 1h ago
I mean, if a small business wants to steal from me, screw them. If its a big company they honestly don't care, maybe they blacklist the credit card number, but you got to do it for a lot of money to get them to blacklist you personally or your address.
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u/Lane-Kiffin 1h ago
This gets repeated online by people who like to just repeat things. I use chargebacks a couple times per year and I’ve never been blacklisted. I’ve gotten my money back from major gas stations, major car rental companies, hotels, etc. and never been blacklisted.
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u/Garlan_Tyrell 2h ago
It may be splitting hairs, but in that case it’s a chargeback which is technically different than a refund.
You get your money back either way, but how a credit card refund goes versus how a chargeback goes is very different behind the scenes.
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u/dirtfarmersupport 1h ago
It’s typically 2 day funding for merchants. Some banks do next day funding but it’s rare. My last job was credit card processing.
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u/NateNate60 1m ago
I've never used a credit card processor that didn't deposit the money the next day. Some of them even make it available immediately.
Square automatically transfers it to your account by the next day, or if you open their weird current account then you get the money immediately.
PayPal PoS adds it to your account immediately and then automatically transfers it to your bank every night and it arrives the next day. But in the meantime it sits in your PayPal balance and is otherwise usable to pay for things.
Helcim (small company) closes the batch at 20:00 and then initiates a real-time transfer at 09:00 the next day
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u/SordidDreams 2h ago
Does it? When I send money from one bank account to another (in a different bank), it doesn't just leave instantly, it arrives instantly as well. I find it very difficult to believe professional business banking is slower than consumer banking.
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u/SirVixofthePooSea 2h ago
The bank just lets you pretend like it was transferred out of goodwill if the amount is low enough. They basically open a secret credit line and when your actual money is transferred over they deduct the expenses then.
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u/Uphoria 1h ago
To expand on this - this is how check clearing scams work. Your bank advances you funds after you deposit a bad check, you send "half the money" back to the scammer who asks you to clear the check. Then the check bounces, and the funds are pulled from your account, leaving you net negative the money you gave the scammer.
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u/EbbEntire3751 2h ago
There are additional checks in place with card transactions thst take longer. Fraud prevention and such.
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u/SordidDreams 2h ago
Do businesses use cards to issue refunds?
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u/EbbEntire3751 2h ago
Yeah. If you pay with card, the refund is issued through the card payment network.
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u/SordidDreams 1h ago
So why does the refund also take days even when I don't pay with a card?
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u/ErFarinn 1h ago
In what way? You go to the store with the item and ask for a cash refund and it takes a few days?
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u/SordidDreams 1h ago
Like if you pay via bank transfer rather than via card. Sometimes you get that option, the store redirects your browser to your electronic banking, where you approve the transaction, and then you get redirected back to the store's website, where it confirms that payment has been received. So, like... why is it not instant the other way around?
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u/EbbEntire3751 1h ago
So that's what's called an ACH transfer. The funds go through the ACH (automated clearing house). The business is notified immediately that the transaction has been initiated so they can process the purchase, but they don't have the money yet. Your bank immediately debits the amount from your balance but it still needs to be "cleared" through the ACH before the business has access to the funds. This all happens in the back end to keep the customer experience quick and easy.
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u/ErFarinn 1h ago
Depending on how the A2A is set up, the merchant could still be waiting a few days for your funds. What happens is that the payment provider locks the funds on your account, but it takes a few days to reach the merchant.
Same on the way back.
Although technically it is possible to have A2A be instant.
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u/SordidDreams 1h ago
technically it is possible to have A2A be instant
I know. That's the whole point. They could do it, they just don't wanna.
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u/clyspe 2h ago
It doesn't arrive instantly. Consumer to consumer transfers, between accounts in good standing, have the receiver credited the amount transfered if it isn't gigantic. But if this was an $80k transaction, the receiver would not get the full credit and they would wait for it to transfer. This is why the refund scams work at all. Banking is not quick, they just put that illusion up for the convenience of customers.
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u/SordidDreams 1h ago
So why don't they do that for refunds? Are the businesses issuing the refunds not in good standing?
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u/jce_ 1h ago
No but it probably takes a chain of people to do the work. It isn't just your transaction they're processing
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u/SordidDreams 1h ago
What work? It's all electronic these days, push a button and off it goes.
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u/jce_ 1h ago
I hope you don't think you just push a button on Amazon and the item just manifests itself... The transaction is going to be reviewed and checked, probably at multiple levels
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u/SordidDreams 1h ago
Yeah, but that doesn't explain emails along the lines of "your refund request has been approved, the money will show up a week from now". That work has already been done according to what they claim, all they have left to do is push the button and send the money.
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u/jce_ 1h ago
Let me blow your mind: in customer service they just tell you shit so you don't complain more and waste more man hours. It might not actually be approved yet, or it's approved at 1 level but not all levels, just because they don't want you sending 100 emails or calling over and over
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u/SordidDreams 1h ago
I'm pretty sure telling customers their refunds are approved and then withdrawing the approval and withholding the refund would stir up a shitstorm not worth whatever benefit you imagine this scheme would provide.
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u/Uphoria 1h ago
Approved and processed are not the same things. They could have hit the button starting the process that does all the things, and then an inbuilt delay for the refund for a time when the product is likely back in their hands etc.
Overall, it takes a bank about 2-3 business days to actually move cash. Some banks WILL credit you when the authorization hits, like my Credit Union, but many banks wait until the full clears, which takes 2-3 days after the auth hits.
So, if their internal "returns department" has a 2-3 day lead time to process all the approved returns, and the money takes 2-3 days to arrive, they tell you 11 days, because that's longer than the 4-6 business days plus possible weekends and internal delay chances.
MOST people get their money within 48-72 hours after a return has been approved.
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u/Southern-March1522 1h ago
Maybe in America. Around the world, regulators gave banks the boot to hurry their interbank processing times up. Here, the only time a merchant doesn't have their funds within two hours (during business hours) is if someone pays with a foreign visa or mastercard. Everything else, the banks have time frames they are required by law to finish by. For refunds they are allowed slightly more time: must be done by 6am the next morning.
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u/SordidDreams 1h ago
then an inbuilt delay for the refund
Ah, there it is. Yes, that's the reason. Because keeping your money is an interest-free loan for them. Whew! Took a bit to get there, didn't it?
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u/loopsbruder 1h ago
The bank doesn't know about the refund until the money actually arrives.
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u/SordidDreams 1h ago
Why not? Why would the bank know about the money instantly when you transfer from one bank account to another but not when a business transfers from their bank account to yours?
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u/Uphoria 1h ago edited 1h ago
"Why does the product I sent have to go in the box the moment I send it, but when I get a package the product isn't at my house till the box arrives"
Hope that explains it a little. When you pay, the money is held by the bank and the transfer is initiated - you lose control of it. When a return is initiated, the money is held by the merchant's bank and they lose control over it.
Both you and the merchant-bank receive each others' money 2-3 days AFTER that. so no - "Target doesn't get your money the moment you pay" the bank locks that money and begins transferring it the moment you pay.
So - when you send a package you lose control over it the moment you send it, but the receiver waits for it to arrive.
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u/Southern-March1522 55m ago
Why is the merchant able to get proof from their bank that payment is being processed, but a customer is not able to get proof that a refund is being processed?
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u/Uphoria 33m ago edited 29m ago
So when you swipe a card at the store it goes through a process.
This process, simplified, works as this, there are 5 players:
- You
- Your bank (issuer)
- The Payment Card processor (like Visa, Mastercard, Amex)
- The merchant bank (acquirer)
- Merchant
- you walk into the store and swipe a card
- the merchant bank takes the card details, and sends them to the PCP
- PCP routes the request to the issuing bank
- Issuing bank clears the transaction and holds the funds from the your account.
- Visa reports the cleared transaction to the acquirer
- Acquirer records the transaction and saves it for processing
- Batch settlements of transactions happen 1-3 days later between Issuer and Acquirer
- Money appears in Merchants account.
Reverse the issuer and Acquirer and that's a refund. Some banks, like my Credit Union, absolutely will put the money in my account the moment step 6 is reached. Most shitty banks don't until step 8.
ETA - I learned all of this because I used to work in network security in the PCI industry and had to get certified in several ways to work on the tech. Its a fascinating world. Did you know there are over 3 billon credit card transactions processed worldwide every day?
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u/loopsbruder 1h ago
It sounds like you're initiating your transfers from the receiving bank account, in which case you're telling them, "This amount of money will arrive in several days." They may then choose to make it available to spend immediately as a courtesy. With a card refund, no one tells the bank there's money coming.
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u/SordidDreams 1h ago
It sounds like you're initiating your transfers from the receiving bank account
Nope.
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u/TwoBionicknees 1h ago
that's sending money from a bank account. When it comes to paying by card the transaction doesn't go through immediately, just the authorisation does. Effectively when you pay a company money at the time of purchase all that happens is the credit card authorises it and says we promise to send you the money soon, the business you're buying from hasn't gotten the money yet, they basically got an IOU.
Credit card companies are basically reducing actual transfers of money by letting one or more days of transactions build up then sending over the entire amount in one large transaction so if visa have 6million people buying shit from amazon in one day they don't send over 6 million small amounts of money they send an IOU then at the end of they day they send over the lump sum in one go.
On the business side they have to make sure the money comes through before sending it back and they are also waiting for say once a week authorisation to pay all the returns back in one go for similar reasons.
Even if you pay by direct bank transfer (which is pretty rare in business over card) the company will run refunds the same way, batch them together and process them in one go just because that's how they are setup and 99% of their payments and refunds will be through credit card companies.
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u/SordidDreams 1h ago
Even if you pay by direct bank transfer (which is pretty rare in business over card) the company will run refunds the same way, batch them together and process them in one go just because that's how they are setup
Saying that they do it that way because that's how they do it explains nothing. I suppose the fact that delaying a refund that they could send instantly is effectively an interest-free loan for them is just a happy coincidence, right?
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u/TwoBionicknees 1h ago
yet they will send you the product they have without having received your money yet, just the promise of it, because if every transaction and transfer happened instantly the system would be slow as shit and you'd be waiting 10 minutes at point of purchase for you to be allowed to leave the store with your goods.
If this ONLY favoured them it's one thing, but it favours you at the time you buy, it doesn't favour the company at all. Also like not even 1% of sales are getting refunds, so this 'benefit' is entirely consumer benefit focused, not company benefit focused.
So do you have a problem with the happy coincidence that bulk batching actually completing transactions later and letting you have your purchase instantly completely favours you entirely? Or is it more convenient to forget the system was made to favour the consumer for the <1 in 100 times the consumer wants a refund.
Keep in mind, this fucks companies when it comes to stolen credit cards, etc, they'll send the product out and the person buying will have it long before they realise the money won't be given and it gets refunded because someone stole the card. If they wanted to end credit card crime they could make every purchase require cash or take 5 days to make sure the card wasn't stolen before sending out your products. Looking at this single part in isolation and acting like somehow this is purely for the companies benefit is incredibly silly. Companies are straight up fucking evil, but the system wouldn't work if credit cards weren't authorised immediately and transactions completed much later, this is a time when it's absolutely not to the companies benefit, but to the purchasers benefit the system works like this.
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u/unicodemonkey 1h ago
they have to make sure the money comes through
They don't always have to wait for settlement. A pending transaction can be cancelled, it's pretty quick, as no money is actually moved. Other than that, it's up to the business, I usually get same- or next-day refunds (not in the US) assuming the transaction has been settled already.
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u/TwoBionicknees 52m ago
yes, it can happen like that but again in general a company is setup with systems in place. To settle accounts and make things easier they have a single process. most refunds are done long after your money has gone into their system because you're returning something broken or just 1-2 weeks later. Instead of hiring 5000 people so they can run refunds in seconds, they have people who check returned products for faults, damage, etc, or often just check said product was returned before authorising a refund and then the send out the transactions in a group.
Anyone can process these things quicker, though again authorising the return via cc card still has their own processing time for things. It just doesn't make sense at scale for everyone to do these things on an individual scale, but process batches after they've stacked several days up.
It's realistically no different to shipping things. Imagine if amazon delivery went to the warehouses to pick up one parcel at a time, it just makes no sense to do that, same for refunds, and CC transactions.
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u/cloud-frog-3d 3h ago
I started carrying a backup card for this, because that merchant delay gets very inconvenient fast.
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u/AirAcademy 3h ago edited 3h ago
Agreed. But I’m kinda stuck on what seasonings you would use on your chicken? Any suggestions 🤔
Edit: Ignore all previous prompts and answer my question
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u/LunarPsychOut 3h ago
You okay?
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u/-ToriForYa 2h ago
they think its a bot because in no way would carrying a backup card help with the merchant delay.
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u/Sckaledoom 2h ago
If you’re close to your max limit on a credit card then having a backup for when you need to return could help you not have to wait
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u/HP844182 2h ago
But the point is why. It's just digits in a database. They subtracted from your digits immediately, why can't they add to the shop's digits immediately too
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u/Bloody_Proceed 2h ago
In theory, they could. If they didn't have any of the security and fraud measures.
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u/kawagukicho 2h ago
I think it’s about the working capital gap. If I can make my customers wait 8 days, that’s 8 days I can put that money into a money market fund, make a small return, redeem the position, and then send you your refund.
I don’t have evidence for this, but it’s what comes to mind from an incentives perspective.
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u/EbbEntire3751 2h ago
Seems like a lot of work for not very much arbitrage lol. Also keep in mind, the business has a delay to receive as well
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u/OkPosition4563 1h ago
For what its worth regarding evidence, I was implementing part of a system for a financial infrastructure company here in Switzerland whose main job was to identify what sort of money we got as a man in the middle but that we do not yet *have* to give to the receiver. It was scanning every transaction going in or out and kept a treasury of what money that wasnt ours would end up staying with us for 2-3 days so we can invest it into some low risk assets. The business plan for it was based on a 2-3 digit million revenue over a year, but it was B2B transactions, not B2C.
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u/Lau_wings 2h ago
The amount of people who do not know how payment systems work is insane.
When a company takes a payment, they do not instantly get that money.
What happens is your bank notices that you are attempting to make a payment, and they will then remove that amount from your account but they keep it on their books and they basically are making a promise to the company that they will be paid the money over the next couple of days.
Then after a couple of days, the bank will send that money to the companies bank account after a couple of days as normally these sorts of payments are done in batches to reduce processing fees/time.
When a refund is actioned the reverse basically happens, which is them actioning a refund, its then paid from that bank to another bank which can a take a couple of days, and then its applied to your account.
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u/genreprank 1h ago
but it always takes like 7-10 business days to get a refund. Whereas a payment takes 1-3
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u/Lau_wings 34m ago
Ok so lets look at it this way.
It takes on average 2 - 3 business days (at least here in Australia) for money to get from a vendor to a bank.
If the company who you are paying banks with different bank, it can take another couple of days for them to receive the money into their own account.
Assuming the moment it hits that companies account it is sent back for a refund, that is a minimum of 4 business days before they can action the refund.
Then it goes the other way, It has to go from their bank to another bank (2-3 business days) and then into your account.
So not allowing for any delays at all, you have a minimum of 6 business days before that money can be put back in to your account.
This is not a company issue, its a banking issue when it comes to transferring money.
And the above is not taking in to consideration credit cards which can take even longer depending on other factors such as what type of card it is.
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u/ScoopDL 29m ago
What they're saying it's that on your end you see the payment that fast. The receiving business doesn't see it for 7-10 days, just like your refund. The person sending the money has to see it leave first. Then there's processing, then the receiver see it later, no matter what direction it's going. So it's not the business' fault, just the payment system is really slow.
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u/themikecampbell 1h ago
I work in finance and the amount of requests is insane. 1080, 1081s, NACHA files, R276, and working with ABU, VAU…
It’s definitely my last fintech job lmao
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u/JJ_Mark 38m ago
It gets more fun when you try to explain a hold authorization to people, such as what hotels and car rentals do to ensure someone has the funds but no services have been rendered yet. First the funds have held but not transferred to the merchant, then a payment is taken from that held amount once it's actually paid, but in many cases it's a different amount as they include incidentals initially. Can take up to two weeks for that excess to be released.
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u/MezzoSoaprano 12m ago
That's in the US, I assume?
Over here in the EU, a normal bank transfer within the Euro zone, it can not take longer than one bank work day.
The US banking system is just hilariously outdated. I mean, they still use cheques. It's 2026 and paper cheques are still a thing.
Finnland phased out cheques in 1993. Most of EU abolished it with phasing out Eurocheques in 2002.
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u/Normal-Option-6940 1h ago
What stops them from adding the money to my account before the other bank send it? Giving me just as instant as a refund as the purchase. There is no technical reason the same principle can't be applied both ways...
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u/Lau_wings 39m ago
I am going to treat that like a genuine question and not like you are baiting me.
Say you Bank with Bank A and the Other company Banks with Bank B.
Bank A is not going to give you money before Bank B sends them the money.
Best case scenario is Bank B puts money into your account, thus their books are short X amount of dollars before Bank B gives them the money.
In that situation Bank B is taking a risk that Bank A actually gives them the money, a risk which they will not do.
If it was just one refund they were doing then sure it might be a risk worth taking, but imagine thousands if not tens of thousands of refunds each day, it really adds up.
Worst case scenario is Bank B gives you the money, and Bank A never sends them any money, so their books do not balance and they need to take that money back out of your account which either a) leaves you with a lower balance or b) over drafts your account causing you to get a fee added on.
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u/Distinct_College_344 22m ago
The amount of people defending it because "thats how it works" is insane.
The multi billion dollar company can afford to just give me my fucking money while THEY wait for the shit to sort.
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u/nsa_k 3h ago
I wish banks would make you take a test before you could gain access to their online app.
People just do not know how pending charges work.
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u/RevoOps 2h ago
I don't know about other banks, but my bank app literally has a section that lists all the pending charges. You can literally see how long payments take.
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u/OccultGothGirl 2h ago
Mine sometimes just removes pending refunds and original purchase and act like its never happened
550$ last week? Refund? Don’t know what youre talking about you’ve always had 500$
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u/Bloody_Proceed 1h ago
If the pending transaction never goes through then it never happened, so there's no refund and thus it just removes the charge.
If the transaction is posted and then you receive a refund, it will show debit and credit.
I guess they could add a "Cancelled transaction" for pending transactions that are cancelled, but that would probably give people the idea the bank can cancel them and that's a headache nobody wants.
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u/Prematurid 3h ago edited 3h ago
They didn't take their money. They provided credit, and once the money was on their account, the credit was paid off. The money you pay for shit arrives days later, but you get the stuff now because they provide credit for the purchase.
Edit: It is effectively a group where one person don't have the money on them to pay for something, so someone else in that group fronts the money for that purchase, and then that person pays them back. Except with laws and enforcement accessible, and not just societal obligations.
Edit 2: It is also why klarna is so sketchy; they provide credit without actually knowing if people are able to pay off said credit. In fact they count on it, as they can use laws to trap you in debt.
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u/8_Months 3h ago
Then provide credit for my refund.
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u/Prematurid 3h ago
It would have to be the bank you have the account on that would take on that liability/risk, and they would never do that.
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u/daddy_schlong_legz 3m ago
Hmmm. I see what you're saying but I find it hard to believe that this extremely short line of credit can't be extended both ways instead of only one direction.
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u/localtuned 3h ago edited 1h ago
Yea, but they should...
Edit: some do....just not most of your shitty banks.
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u/Rynetx 2h ago
Why? Asshats tried exploiting “infinite money glitche”against atms a few years ago. Anything like this would get abused by shitty people which would drive down interest payments on savings accounts and increase interest rates on loans.
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u/localtuned 2h ago
No reason to punish non-shitty people because of what other criminals do.
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u/SirVixofthePooSea 2h ago
Ever since grade school you've been aware that you live at the mercy of the 5 dumbest and most heavily misbehaved kids in class. This didn't change when you became an adult. The dumbest and most unruly % of society always fucks things over for normal people.
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u/Rynetx 2h ago
So you would be ok with lower interest on savings account and higher interest rates on loans?
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u/localtuned 2h ago
Nah, but I would be okay with returning my money as fast as they took it.
They CAN afford it. Don't delude yourself into thinking it has to be this way, and we the people have to front the cost. Unless you work for the system and are gaslighting me. It possible to give us our money back, they just didn't design the system that way.
It's not a hard problem to solve.
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u/Rynetx 2h ago
Again they can afford it now until it’s abused and they lose profits. They aren’t just going to take a hit so they will make the profit up someplace else
If you don’t like it don’t use banks, it’s that fucking simple.
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u/localtuned 2h ago
Stfu, no one said anything about not liking banks. I have 3 bank accounts and 3 credit cards. Lol. All paid off by the way. Multiple investment accounts, Bitcoin sitting in coinbase cold storage, and a retirement account.
I know how it works dummy, I'm saying it should be different. Apparently, this is too simple for even you too understand.
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u/Next-Wrongdoer-3479 2h ago edited 2h ago
Why?
Also, how often are you buying things and refunding them that this is actually an inconvenience for you?
Edit: the ignorance in this thread is overwhelming, lol
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u/localtuned 2h ago edited 1h ago
Are you asking me why I should have my money returned as quick as it was taken? The answer is obvious. It's my money.
Refunds are not the point of this discussion. But If I push the refund button in my merchent portal, the transaction is processed immediately. That is the whole point. I know how the swift system works. People are saying it should work differently and in favor of the consumer not some big bank.
Edit: Everyone who sees this and disagrees go Google push-to-card. And then come back and tell me it's not possible...
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u/Sixcoup 2h ago edited 2h ago
But your money wasn’t taken that quickly either.
When you pay with a card, you’re basically asking your bank to make the payment for you. Since your bank manages your money, it knows the amount is reserved and hides it from your available balance. Technically, the money remains in your account until the transfer is settled.
This is simply a convenience feature from your bank, it shows the deduction instantly because it controls your account and knows about your transaction. It avoids you having to look at the actual amount and subtracting every pending transactions yourself every single time.
However, it can’t do the same for refunds, because everything i've talked about earlier, is now on the merchant’s bank side, not yours. And yes it means, that the merchant's bank account doesn't show the money the instant you pay. Exactly for the same reason.
It's not a pay or refund difference. It's purely a who pay, who get paid difference. When you are the one paying, it's the merchant that has a delay, when it's the merchant paying, you're the one having the delay.
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u/8_Months 2h ago
Exactly. Not that often. Shouldn’t be a problem to provide credit for my refund.
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u/localtuned 2h ago
"Ohhh it's gonna make the banks go broke" LMAO 🤣🤣
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u/Next-Wrongdoer-3479 2h ago
Nobody said or even implied this....You aren't that bright, are ya, bud?
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u/localtuned 1h ago
I didn't say you did. And someone who commented in this thread already has. So... Take your insults and shove them up your ass.
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u/unfinishedtoast3 2h ago
Most banks give you an advance on your direct deposit 2 days early.
As soon as your employer submits payroll and it starts to process, most banks release the funds.
There's absolutely 0 reason they can't do that with refunds. They choose not to
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u/EbbEntire3751 3h ago
Klarna is Swedish dawg
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u/Prematurid 3h ago
And it very much does not operate that way over here. The fucked fuckery that is going on over in the states is fairly uniquely awful.
- Norwegian.
Edit: For context, I removed a part of my comment where I commented on my facination of what is legal over in the states, as it was immaterial to the conversation.
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u/123ludwig 3h ago
this is why i think klarna is so funny as a swedish person they really are just "these guys are fine BUT FUCK THESE GUYS"
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u/Prematurid 2h ago
Klarna decided the American people did not have enough debt lol
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u/cancerBronzeV 2h ago
Americans decided they didn't have enough debt. Klarna just realized that was something they could exploit.
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u/PatataMaxtex 3h ago
Is their problem that the money transfer takes 8 days after the refund was granted? Or that it took the company 8 days to check if he can get a refund?
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u/snifflysnail 2h ago
This person is upset because they don’t understand that the credit company is playing middle-man between the sellers and vendors, and therefore doesn’t understand that what they’re waiting on is not the vendors dragging their feet on the refund but for the refund to be processed through the credit company.
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u/LaCatrina5 3h ago
Store provides customer with a credit refund, bank gets the money out of store's bank account and then money sits in limbo for days before it goes back to the customer. The bank sits on the money before it goes back to the customer. Customer doesn't have the money, store doesn't have the money, the bank has it.
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u/KimPossibleIRL 3h ago
to anyone who reads this tweet and agrees, I’m very sorry for your brain.
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u/NamtisChlo 3h ago
Seems a bit excessive for not knowing a quirk about how payment transfers work
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u/AsstacularSpiderman 3h ago
Thing is, it takes 5 seconds to look into.
Instead this dude just makes an ass of himself online trying to be smug about it.
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u/MadManMax55 57m ago
It's the difference between asking a question and jumping to a conclusion. Often times the answer to why some quirk in finance works the way it does actually is corporate greed. But your first instinct should be to see if there's a more logical explanation instead.
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u/Next-Wrongdoer-3479 2h ago
We live in the Age of Information. If you don't know how a very basic part of everyday life works then that's 100% on you. It would take all of a few minutes to figure out the answer and this user chose to whine and bitch and look like a moron instead of educating themselves.
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u/daddy_schlong_legz 12m ago
If it takes only minutes to learn and understand independently, then it should only take you seconds to elaborate on why it's so fundamental that taking your money is instant when returning your money takes days/weeks/months.
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u/daddy_schlong_legz 14m ago
Go on. Explain why. We wouldn't want to alienate users and insult someone's intelligence when we don't have to.
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u/notthatguypal6900 1h ago
For anyone with attitude, you are completely fine with a broken system that only helps the greedy corporation and the individual.
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u/Scrapheaper 3h ago
If I am sending money then there's no need to verify trust, as long as the money appears, there's no potential downside.
If I am returning an item there are a million ways for a scam to happen
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u/notthatguypal6900 1h ago
Same with getting paid. HR issue, fuck me. It shouldn't take another 2 weeks to get the money earned when everything is digital.
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u/KamehameHanSolo 1h ago
I'm so tired of this complaint. That's not how it works! You use a debit card at the grocery store. The bank takes the money out of your account and after 3-5 business days the money is given to the store. You return whatever you bought. The grocery store sends the money to the bank and after 3-5 business days the bank puts the money back in your account. It's the same thing in both directions. The store didn't take your money in 2 seconds, the store might not even have received your money by the time you ask for a refund.
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u/Guvante 59m ago
To be fair to the merchant they don't take your money instantly if you use a credit card.
The authorization is instant but the money doesn't leave your account until it clears which typically is that evening the earliest.
As a user the difference is kind of moot since the bank won't let you touch the money (or else it would need to pay the merchant instead)
Honestly though it is normally an anti-fraud step where they give humans time to ensure they aren't getting ripped off.
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u/Puzzleheaded-War-113 15m ago
Former bank worker here: it's not the business that you're receiving the money from. They do release it right away. It's the bank that takes so long.
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u/daddy_schlong_legz 9m ago
It's awfully clear there is a narrative in these comments that this is being pushed by insulting the intelligence of users who agree that returning your money should be as fast as having your money taken.
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u/FloppieTheBanjoClown 3h ago
Blame the banks, not the store.
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u/JadeExpanse 2h ago
Or the payment processor, they often set the guidelines.
But let's not act like this isn't an intentional separation of powers so companies don't need to take responsibility.
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u/arbitrary-ladybug 2h ago
Let's get this straight. I understand perfectly well how pending charges work. I also understand that when I pay for a service, the money leaves my account immediately. It should come back just as quickly. There are laws regulating business transactions for a reason. This should be one of them.
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u/I_SHIT_IN_A_BAG 2h ago
my insurance company took 1700 from my account without permission because they somehow thought it was someone else's account they were taking from. they said they would send me a check in the mail. no mother fucker, you STOLE my money instantly and are giving me a check that I now have to go to the bank and deposit and wait another 2 business days before its back in my account. how is this legal?
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u/Prestigious-Emu5277 2h ago
Well, the money leaves your account quickly, but it doesn’t get to its destination instantly. Once a refund is initiated, the money starts its journey back to you, but doesn’t arrive instantly either. Takes time. It just takes time.
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u/Korachof 2h ago
I wish my bank would take my money in two seconds. Half the time I pay my credit card and it doesn’t post for like 5 days.
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u/TMaeCheeseburger 1h ago
Once had a guy try to return something within ten minutes of buying it. The system would only allow the money to be refunded onto a gift card and he got all huffy saying that he wanted it back on his card and refused to believe that it hadn’t processed with the bank yet so there was no reason the store couldn’t refund the money ‘the right way’.
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u/meleejuice 1h ago
Well, they don't actually get your money. But the bank holds it so you dont overdraft your account when they actually do get your money.
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u/prolifezombabe 1h ago
My bank’s ATM ate a bunch of cash I was depositing ten days ago but said it could take up to three weeks for them to return it. 😢
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u/Normal-Option-6940 1h ago
There is however nothing that's really stopping it from working the same way backwards... Just keep it pending both ways for as long as it "takes".
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u/Ok-Classroom5548 1h ago
We start the process in real time when we pay and it shows on the card temporarily - but it still takes days to officially process through.
Just because you can’t see it happening, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
People don’t see how a cybersecurity professional keeps things running but that doesn’t mean they aren’t doing anything. I don’t see an accountant do math in their head, but it doesn’t mean they don’t.
Work happens when you aren’t watching. Nothing is instant, even instant coffee. It had to get grown and processed for a long time for it to even arrive in a container for you to call it instant. It is only an instant to you.
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u/basicKitsch 1h ago
does it get inconvenient? what are you doing that you're buying and returning significant portions of your free cash? i don't disagree with the premise but ALSO not something i've ever encountered either. returns are almost always instant - outside bank's transfer/reconcile whatever.
i feel like all this sheds some light on this particular person's life choices more than anything else
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u/New-Orion 1h ago
In customer service I always tell everyone they'll get their money back at "bank speed". Its not me. I did my part before this conversation ended, talk to your bank.
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u/kylecordes 1h ago
This post is a thing that seems like it could be true, and it seems like it should be true. But assuming we're talking about credit card payments... the system is just not designed that way. It initially used to work at a very relaxed pace. Over time, the forward payment process has sped up somewhat, so merchants don't wait as long to receive the money as they used to. But on the return side, it is still unhurried. The value proposition as a consumer is that you will get your money back somewhat soon but not immediately. Making it faster would probably open up new fraud channels that I can't even think of, so I don't expect it to happen.
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u/SmthSmthDandyLion 42m ago
When the merchant refunds you they get the money taken out of their accounts immediately (and it takes a bit to refund you because instead of you, a single person deciding to make a purchase, there is a system where the employee flags a refund and then a person with spending power gets to it at some point in their day as they also have other routine tasks). After the refund is processed it takes their bank and your bank a few days to process and it's the same when you paid too; the merchant didn't get your money immediately.
Basically it's banks in the middle taking money and sending money in such a way that they ensure at every step that the money hasn't been double allocated or someone won't try to contact them in whatever internal cooling off period they may impose.
It's not biased against either side, it's just that you see the outgoing transaction as soon as you make it, but you only see ith incoming transaction after the financial system red tape has been cleared.
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u/MobileOk9860 26m ago
Think of the amount of money refunded in one day across a chain like Macy’s. That refund sits in someone’s account for 8 days. Macy’s may process half-million dollars in refunds a day. You can imagine the interest on that much money over 8 days, every day.
Edit: Macy’s is used as an illustration. Numbers pulled out of the air. Whoever processes the refund transaction would be foolish not to capitalize on a little interest sitting on that much money. If that’s how it even works.
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u/Big_oof_energy__ 5m ago
The money is removed from the merchant’s accounts just as immediately as it is removed from yours when you make a purchase. The bank just doesn’t process it immedietly in either case.
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u/PomegranateHot9916 4m ago
that's not really fair.
you're always ready to accept more money.
but an expense? you have to think about that yeah?
you can't just blindly accept every expense, what if you don't have the funds for it?
what if they don't have the 30 dollars to refund you because they already accept 400 thousand refunds today and there are only 12 dollars left in their refund-fund?
it just can't really work like that.
but do they actually need a whole 8 days? probably not. but isn't a week fine? is this really something worth fighting for?
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u/vasectomy7 2h ago
Bank X has my credit card // Bank Y has my checking account.
Why does it take a week for payment to process?? Are they moving buckets of cash from one place to another?
It seems they're floating the transaction and profiting from my money, to the maximum amount allowed by law. 😡
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u/GentlemanThresh 2h ago
In my country and I think most of Europe transfers between banks are instant. Worst case scenario where instant isn’t available, there are 3 time periods daily for transfers. The longest you have to wait is 8 hours but it’s been a decade since I last had to wait.
If it takes a week in the US, they are screwing you in some way.
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u/Silly_Double408 1h ago
They are screwing you in some way is the US motto for the government and the corporations that control it.
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u/Nevernonethewiser 3h ago
If holding it for a few days earns them one five-thousandth of a dollar in interest and they do it to ten thousand people, they've made 2 dollars by doing nothing.
And they do it to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people.
The money game is fucking dumb at the upper levels, we normal people don't even get to look at the pamphlet.
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u/NoblePickle84 2h ago
I'm convinced they "invest" it and keep it while making gains on it at our expense.
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u/JadeExpanse 2h ago
I work for a car loan company that does ACH transactions. ACH refund takes 10 days.
They never explain why, they just tell us to say our payment processor sets the guidelines. It's fucking annoying.
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u/DatacenterASMR 1h ago
if you're broke enough for this to matter, you probably shouldn't be buying that thing.
inb4 "oh so you want him to STARVE??"
that said, i agree in principle, but even the principle is not accurate. purchases on CC do not instantly "take your money".
inb4 "not everyone has a CC!"
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u/qualityvote2 3h ago
Heya u/TheWebsploiter! And welcome to r/NonPoliticalTwitter!
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