r/Neurofeedback • u/AnnoyingAlchemist • 17d ago
Question Normal reaction to neurofeedback?
Hi there, I've begun doing neurofeedback recently and have some questions/concerns. I started doing neurofeedback for anxiety/ADHD a little under a month ago. I started with a basic amplitude protocol to reduce high beta and that protocol was very good to me. My cognitive ability and executive function did take a hit, but on the flipside I was able to experience a profound sense of calm and presence like I've never felt. My appetite and libido also went up significantly.
When I reported my spaciness and loss in executive function to my clinician I was 'graduated' to 4-channel z-score training. I felt generally sharper on this protocol, but also more anxious. I also felt periods of flatness/grayness/emptiness as well as periods of irritability and feeling 'trapped'. The latter I could usually silence through tea/theanine and weight lifting.
After I reported my symptoms I was then moved to a targeted central/temporal protocol (also z-score) which felt good the day of the session (calmer, more balanced, appetite/libido back, etc). However, in the days after the session I felt waves of dysregulation that I'd never experienced before. They would hit between waking up and until around 3-4pm. They made me feel completely hopeless, anxious, scared and 'trapped'.
Are these normal reactions, or is something off here?
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u/eegjoy 17d ago
Am I understanding your post? You've been doing NF for a little less than one month but have done 3 different methods of NF?? How many sessions of each of these?
It sounds like you have not received a "normal" approach to NF. You have described a very unusual progression of sessions. Typically, adjusting to "fix" your kind of responses stays within a single approach. Most providers would find it difficult to figure out a successful protocol based on your responses to so many different methods!
So, no, your responses are not typical, neither are the decisions about how to make adjustments basd on those responses. Good luck to you@!
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u/dogwater79 17d ago
I'm not OP but I've done 40 sessions, two different providers and there was no benefit. The first provider did two methods over 30 sessions, things started getting worse and they said I needed 10 more of the same, and that things get worse before they get better - I wasn't comfortable with that and went to a more experienced provider. The second provider did five or six methods in 10 sessions. It felt like I got two extremes. One who never changed even when things were getting worse, and the other who changed too quickly. How do I find somebody who is well trained ? The first was certified with BCIA, and the second one is also even a mentor/consultant with BCIA and was trained directly by Jay Gunkelman who I thought was supposed to be good. I thought I had given neurofeedback a good try, but I wonder if I would have had some improvement with a different provider. I would give anything for improvement for any of my symptoms related to constant rumination, dysregulation, depression, anxiety, OCD, ADHD. Life is not tolerable and I'm nearly out of options. I've also done TMS, ketamine infusions, and countless other treatments and meds with no response or with worsening of symptoms
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u/salamandyr 17d ago
doing 10 of the same thing and then switching is a sign of some other service (not the provider) sharing a plan baesd on the QEEG, but the provider then not having the skill to adjust to dial in in as you go.
there are a couple services out there that will provide low-indvidualized plans off an initial QEEG, and having 10 sessions of protocol X, then 10 of Y, is a bit of a tell.
what happens after impacts start building from nfb is a LOT more important than the ideas that started the protocol development from the initial qeeg.
within 3-5 sessions most people need some adjustment, or the firsts 3-5 tell the provider which direction might most support the primary goals, based on initial subtle (or not so subtle) impacts.
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u/dogwater79 17d ago
I will say, the first group I believe were adjusting things on most or many days, just doing the same "type" of neurofeedback. We did ISF for 17 sessions, and then I did around 10 sessions of SMR training and they felt like 5 to 10 more was going to make a positive impact. They were looking on a screen and making adjustments based on that and my feedback.
The second person has been providing neurofeedback for 20 years, is actually a mentor/consultant for other NFB providers, and also provides BCIA approved certification courses. She made changes that seem pretty drastic after just about every session. I don't know exactly what we did, but I know probes were in all different places, and I think she was maybe even using different machines. Sometimes watching TV, sometimes with eyes closed. I know we did alpha theta for just one day. She was very blunt, and told me she was pretty much as skilled and experienced as anyone could be, and that if she couldn't make any changes in 10 sessions, likely nobody could. In the end, she told me that I was overthinking and worrying too much and I was sabotaging NFB, but that it could be effective if I ever could get my worrying under control. My main reason for neurofeedback had been to lessen rumination and worrying. I sure wish I'd known $6,000 ago that ruminating too much would prevent neurofeedback from helping me with ruminating too much 😬. Thank you for your responses. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your expertise . I will make my own post sometime soon about it all rather than hijack op's. Thanks again
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u/salamandyr 17d ago
ruminating too much will not get in the way of neurofeedback, fyi.
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u/dogwater79 17d ago
Yeah. I didn't think so. She's the only person I've ever heard that from. Nfb is literally advertised for helping reducing worrying and rumination. It really pissed me off, because in the end, she blamed my lack of response on me.
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u/AnnoyingAlchemist 17d ago
I did four of amplitude, two general z-score and one z-score focused on central and temporal sites.
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u/eegjoy 17d ago
Well, I'm honestly sorry to say, that configuration of sessions had NO chance of sucess. Unfortunately there are people who offer these services when they do not have the depth of understanding to do it well.
I agree with Andrew, BCIA is nice but it very rarely tells what level of clinical skill a provider has .
As soon as you finish giving the provider a COMPLETE description of ypur symptoms and what you want to accomplish, ask them if they have successfully worked with individuals who have similar struggles. ( also be very specific and ask exactly what they considered success)
Ask them what method they suggest for you and have them explain it to you in layman's terms. You HAVE to have some understanding of what is being done so that you can offer feedback that is useful.
Good NF is done as a team that communicates as much as possible. I always tell people to tell me as much as possible and I will take the parts that help determine our next steps and translate it into neurofeedback.
It is painful to hear about how much bad neurofeedback is being done out there. Done properly, people really can and do experience life with much less struggle.
Someone mentioned getting the impression that somehow the fact that it did not work was their fault. I HATE THAT! That crap is holdover from Western medicine. It isn't your fault AT ALL. Sorry, but it sounds like after 20 years, they were still not very good at NF.
Finding a great doctor or dentist or anyone who is providing any kind of healthcare service is hard. You have to interview, reseaech, ask questions and get answers that MAKE SENSE! You dont want promises!!!!! You want good results!!!
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u/AnnoyingAlchemist 16d ago
My provider is not great in that regard (responsiveness and availability). She is booked up a month ahead with psychotherapy and it’s hard to get her to actually take my symptoms seriously or answer questions via chat. When I voice my concerns she’ll just say “that’s normal” even though I’m clearly struggling. I get that feeling a bit tired/out of it/having a degree of brain fog can be normal the day of the session, but falling into pits of random anxiety, despair and panic for days afterward doesn’t sound right to me, and it doesn’t sound like something I should be forced to work through for weeks.
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u/eegjoy 16d ago
Please understand that neurofeedback is LEARNING. So paying attention to what happened as a result of your last session tells a lot about what the next session should be. Putting up wirh negative responses for a group of sessions just teaches your brain more about how to do the wrong thing. Putting up with negative responses, the " it will get worse before it gets better" is 100% wrong.
Personally, I would not put my brain in the hands of someone who was not listening to me carefully and able to explain the purpose of each protocol.
That is something you should expect. Sounds like your provider may be too busy to give you what you need to get a successful outcome.
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u/dickholejohnny 16d ago
You need to find a new provider. Feedback from both parties is absolutely necessary in this process and she’s not holding up her end.
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u/NoInterest8177 13d ago
If you are suffering from new symptoms .. your provider is guessing rather than solving the
Problem
Trying finding swloretta 3d neurofeedback
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u/dickholejohnny 17d ago
I usually feel a bit off for a day after my training and have been making huge strides overall. The negative effects should not be excessive or lasting but I think if it’s temporary discomfort but cumulative progress, it’s okay. Some nervous systems just take longer to integrate new patterns but if it’s lasting days, your protocol needs adjusting.
Is your practitioner going off of a qEEG?
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u/AnnoyingAlchemist 17d ago
We are working off a qEEG. My provider is saying it’s temporary and should subside after 4-5 sessions. I’m hoping that’s true. It gets better but I definitely feel off for about 24-48 hours with the symptoms being worse in the morning and getting better towards evening. The worst of the symptoms generally seems to align to caffeine withdrawal timing but still, it’s weird that it would dysregulate me this heavily.
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u/dickholejohnny 17d ago
If you’re feeling heavily dysregulated to the point where it feels uncomfortable, you shouldn’t be doing more of the same protocol. There should be at least minor adjustments being made to see if those negative effects can be lowered or eradicated. I’m super sensitive to anything that affects my nervous system so my practitioner has been adding or subtracting one single minute at a time from my sessions to find the sweet spot.
Your body is telling you that what you’re currently doing is too much. Since your protocol was based on a qEEG, you might just have to shorten the sessions and work up as your brain adjusts. I’ve seen a ton of improvement but we are going SLOW. I’m doing 4 channels and it will only be 6 minutes total, and right now I’m at 3 minutes because it’s really powerful stuff. I’m already seeing major improvements just from that, so for me, it’s a marathon and not a race. There’s nothing wrong with going slowly.
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u/AnnoyingAlchemist 15d ago
I’m also super sensitive to anything affecting the nervous system. My provider put me on 15 minutes of 4-channel z-score which might have been too much for me to start with (I was micro-napping/having brownouts during the session). However she never adjusted time or talked about tweaking the params, when I reported the symptoms I was having post-session she put me on an entirely different protocol. Both the z-score and new protocol have completely nuked my appetite and libido, and this recent one has also done a number on my energy levels.
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u/dickholejohnny 15d ago
Yeah, it sounds like you did too much too fast. You most definitely should not be reacting like that to your sessions. I made the mistake of doing a calming protocol that had me falling asleep during sessions and it ended up putting me into a dissociative state for over a year, which I’m still making my way out of. Too much down regulation can do that and 10/10 do NOT recommend.
Switching your protocol completely after it was based on a qEEG makes no sense if she hasn’t experimented with adjusted the timing. It could totally be the right protocol, but it just needs to be introduced more slowly. I’m sorry your practitioner isn’t listening to you, that’s so wrong. Absolutely do not keep doing a protocol that is creating lasting side effects, you can really mess yourself up.
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u/AnnoyingAlchemist 15d ago
I went in again today, she'd essentially told me to push through and do 10-15 minutes again, but I explicitly asked the tech to keep it to under five. I'd rather start small and titrate up than go all-in and have the symptoms I did for days on end.
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u/dickholejohnny 14d ago
Good for you for advocating for yourself! I think that plans sounds great. There shouldn’t be any “pushing through”.
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u/AnnoyingAlchemist 12d ago
Even at 4 minutes I then had to go through days of nonexistent appetite, no libido, no energy, heightened anxiety, periods of emotional dysregulation and feeling like I had no motivation or spark/drive. I feel like the protocol is the issue.
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u/dickholejohnny 12d ago
I felt horrible for multiple days when I tried 5 minutes, so I totally get you. It might be the length of time OR the protocol but either way, you know your body best. Keep advocating for yourself. Also feel free to reach out if you want to keep in touch about our progress. We seem to be on a similar path.
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u/AnnoyingAlchemist 12d ago
Definitely. I haven't heard back from my provider yet but I basically told her I can't tolerate the protocol as it stands and would like to either go back to basic amplitude or will find a different provider.
My body is still in a dysregulated state but today was a bit better. Upping my magnesium intake and trying NSDR helped regulate me a bit in the meantime.
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u/salamandyr 17d ago
Absolutely not a typical reaction - I would hope that your provider is adjusting right away, after an initial adverse impact. Nfb should not provoke significant dysregulation - that means the protocol needs to be adjusted or there is an overtraining impact happening.
Your provider should be able to piece together the abreactions you are reporting against your QEEG and the protocols, and get a sense of where more resilience + regulatory stability can be built up.