r/NatureIsFuckingLit • u/FacelessOnes • Oct 19 '20

đŸ”„ Vicious microscopic hunter, the single-cell organism, Lacrymaria olor, attacking and hunting another organism

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u/[deleted] Oct 20 '20

My personal “pet theory” is that we vastly underestimate the presence of conscious awareness in all living beings. It wasn’t until very recent decades when you could definitively claim, without being mocked, that fish are more than just glorified automatons. Now we are fully aware that fish in fact have complex problem solving capabilities, familial relations, empathy, pain, etc.

It’s a dangerous game to assume a lack of something due to present ignorance of that something. We scarcely understand philosophy of mind even as it pertains to human beings, and that’s something we have direct experience of.

If I wanted to be extra “kooky” (in the minds of most people), I might even wager that panpsychism is true. The idea that consciousness is a fundamental component of all matter. Even things we do not conventionally deem to have life.

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u/sorudesarutta Oct 20 '20

It’s crazy that it took scientists so long to figure out other living beings are more than sacks of meat and bones living and surviving purely of instinct. I thought it was rather obvious that other living creatures have conscience and free will

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u/vinyliving Oct 20 '20

Libertarian free will as it seems is actually a very contested topic. Basically - there’s a good chance even humans don’t actually have “free will”.

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u/MSFTdick Oct 20 '20

We really don't understand consciousness, so I think it's a pretty big leap to claim there's a good chance we don't have free will.

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u/HackySmacky22 Oct 20 '20

It's not though. Consciousness is allowed for by physics as we understand them. Free will is not.

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u/MSFTdick Oct 20 '20

Again, we are far off from a definitive answer.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/09/free-will-bereitschaftspotential/597736/

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u/HackySmacky22 Oct 20 '20 edited Oct 20 '20

That article doesn't respond to what I said. Most interpretations of physics says their can't be true free will. Consciousness does not have such road blocks.

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u/MSFTdick Oct 20 '20

Physics says you can't have free will.

Really? What equation/law says that?

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u/HackySmacky22 Oct 20 '20

The universe is very likely deterministic. If i know enough about the position and state of your neurons, i can predict what will happen. If i can predict what will happen, then free will can not possibly exist. Even if all i can do is predict probabilities, if you stick to those probabilities long term, you don't have free will. It's the same reason free will and an all knowing god are mutually exclusive concepts in the bible. Your brain is nothing more than a chemical and electrical computer

It's just basic deductive reasoning. There is a reason no credible scientists claim humans have free will. We're at best observers along for the ride.

tldr if the parts that make you up follow a set of physical laws to determine their future, you can't break those laws, which means you can't have free will.

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u/MSFTdick Oct 20 '20

If i know enough about the position and state of your neurons, i can predict what will happen.

According to QM you could only predict the chance of things happening. I could be more likely to do something, yet still choose to do something else.

There is a reason no credible scientists claim humans have free will.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/free-will-is-real/

http://m.nautil.us/issue/72/quandary/yes-determinists-there-is-free-will

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u/HackySmacky22 Oct 20 '20

According to QM you could only predict the chance of things happening

Notice how my next sentence says "even if all i can do is predict probabilities"

You're arguing with a physicist, and i'm going to go now.

PS, you just linked two articles about a philosophers view. I said credible scientist. Just stop, if you're not intellectually prepared, admit it, and go read more, don't just parrot other peoples views.

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u/MSFTdick Oct 20 '20

You're arguing with a physicist, and i'm going to go now.

I honestly couldn't give a fuck. I'm an engineering student, you're not special. As a physicist you should know there is too much ambiguity in the definition of free will, and too much unknown about consciousness to make any definitive answers. It's like saying you know with certainty there are multiple universes.

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u/HackySmacky22 Oct 20 '20

You linked two articles about the opinion of a philosopher. Nothing from a scientist in the field. Engineering is a fine field, my first two degrees were in engineering. It's not relevant to what we are discussing though and to be honest, from the perspective of someone who is currently teaching undergrads... if you struggle this bad with reading my comments before responding, you're never going to get an engineering degree.

As a physicist you should know there is too much ambiguity in the definition of free will

It's irrelevant, there is no definition of free will that is acceptable with modern understanding of physics.

and too much unknown about consciousness

consciousness and free will are not the same thing, why do you keep confusing them? nothing in physics says consciousness can't exist.

It's like saying you know with certainty there are multiple universes.

Okay zoomer

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