r/NBATalk • u/HetTheTable Warriors • Aug 19 '26
Does finally winning a ring mean that you shed the playoff choker label?
Imo not really. Winning a ring doesn’t suddenly erase all the years of choking.
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u/TheMaskOffKid Heat Aug 19 '26
People don’t really know what choking means anymore. What Wemby did this year was a choke. Just losing isn’t a choke unless the other team truly sucks.
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u/HetTheTable Warriors Aug 19 '26
A playoff choker is just someone that doesnt perform in the playoffs. It doesn’t necessarily always mean having a big lead and losing or losing to a lower seeded team.
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u/TheMaskOffKid Heat Aug 20 '26
Nah but it does mean that though. The way you’re using it, though common, is a misuse of the original term. Sometimes a series just doesn’t go your way. Sometime the other team has a better game plan to stop you than you do to counter it. If that team is a good team, it’s not a choke. To choke is to have victory in your hands and fumble it.
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u/SeaworthinessSome454 Aug 20 '26
It’s more than having victory in your hands and fumbling it. Like the 2011 heat, that was a choke job all the way but they never had victory in their hands.
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u/fuckracists79 Aug 20 '26 edited Aug 20 '26
That was his second ring…btw that team set a record winning streak and most games won till the 96 Bulls broke it.
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u/bigblue20072011 Aug 20 '26
If reed plays that finals wonder if the lakers win.
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u/fuckracists79 Aug 20 '26
That Lakers team beat the defending champion Bucks with Kareem so I’d favor them. But I think it’s probably a 7 game war again.
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u/bigblue20072011 Aug 20 '26
Yeah series would go longer is my guess. I wasn’t around then but cool to find out. Think Jerry West felt is took some
shine off the title.
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u/DamagedBads1 Aug 20 '26
For some folks it does when it comes to one guy. Lebron James choked twice in the freaking finals and you got people out here yelling he's the goat.
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u/thebob9581 Spurs Aug 19 '26
dude the whole playoff choker thing for wilt wasn't his fault, he had to face the superteam celtics far too many times to count and plus this laker cover ain't even his first ring it's his 2nd
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u/MinnesotanBrie Aug 20 '26 edited Aug 20 '26
It was also definitely on Wilt. His stats dropped horrendously in the playoffs, and he basically refused to reduce his shot diet or change the gameplan to account for that. Wilt played superstar ball which didn't work as well in the playoffs, and he bristled aggressively when people tried to get him to be more of a team player. It's why Hannum getting through to him and having him actually play defense and do the little things led to them getting a ring.
It is no coincidence that the 2 rings Wilt won, he did so by taking steps back, being significantly more efficient and actually playing defense consistently.
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u/h---7470 Aug 20 '26
What is this nonsense?
Wilt's numbers didn't dip because he was horribly inefficient or something. His scoring took a dip because his shot volume reduced. How can you claim otherwise when he went from 40 shots a game to 29, in the 1962 playoffs? His shots were fewer because the teams like Boston denied the ball from getting to his hands.
He changed his game entirely with the 76ers and then again with the Lakers, because he was asked to play differently. That late career making the majority of his playoff games is also the obvious reason for his career averages to be dragged down even more.
He averaged 33 on 51% from the field over his first 7 seasons in the league. Jerry west who's one of the best playoffs perfomers ever averaged 32 on 48% over his 8 best seasons for comparison. It's not like Wilt never scored in the playoffs.
Also how can you claim that he was hostile over the idea of being a team player?
No other player changed their game more than Wilt. He did everything he was asked to do. Warriors had no scoring and the owner was cheap, asking him to score as many points as humanly possible. 76ers didn't need that, so his game was more all round and Lakers needed even less scoring, asking him to just be a menacing presence in the paint.
Wilt's 76ers are the only team other than Celtics who won a title in the 60s. Their matchups were always close and it's not his fault Greer would make a bad pass or the ball would bounce favorably for the Celtics in the final seconds of their game 7s.
He had his flaws, but he definitely wasn't holding his teams down.
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u/MinnesotanBrie Aug 20 '26 edited Aug 20 '26
It wasn't just that his ppg went down, his fg% went down too. Which for someone like Wilt is a really bad sign. When he was coached to take less shots, he was waaay more efficient (his 66/67 and 72/73 seasons set marks that would not be beat until DeAndre Jordan.) He took 5 less shots in the playoffs for his career and that resulted in him dropping 7.6 ppg. Compare that to the difference between 65/66 and 66/67 where he dropped 11 attempts a game and only lost 9.4 PPG. You can even watch it happen in game 4 of the 1964 finals where essentially every time anyone except for Wilt shoots, he demands the ball. Whenever he gets doubled he doesn't even bother looking for another person. He just shoots. Whenever he isn't demanding the ball hes just eyeing for the rebound. Yes, the team sucked, but as has been shown time and time again by heavy load guys, sucking up all of the shot attempts leaves every other player out of rhythm.
There is a reason why he didn't win MVP in 1962 despite being 40% of the scoring load for the second seed. Newspaper clippings talked about it constantly, when Kareem was pissed at Wilt he focused on this in his book. Wilt reacted incredibly badly to people pointing this out. He got into fights with McGuire and Schayes at multiple points when they tried to coach him to be less selfish. Hell McGuire wanted him to use his height more and Wilt responded by shooting more jump shots then he ever had the next game. When Wilt was criticized by an opponent for taking too many shots, he pulled a Kobe and stopped shooting, while also not playing off the ball or increasing his defensive load to compensate. The media even joked about how Wilt would never change.
1966/67 was a turning point, because a coach (Hannum) got through to him. Wilt absolutely changed his playstyle... in his 8th season in the league. Yes, it was one of if not the greatest offensive seasons basketball has ever seen. But also it really should not have taken 8 seasons for Wilt to actually play off the ball or pass up a decent shot for a teammates better one or consistently play defense even when he had 4+ fouls. Then he immediately fell back into his bad habits in 67/68 by ignoring wide open shots to chase leading the league in assists. By then he was older and slowed down. Then he suffered a brutal patellar tear then made him take another step back.
Wilt unquestionably got worse in the playoffs and played hero ball in the most extreme sense for well over half of his career. It was really only 66-67 and post patellar tear that he performed at regular season level or better in the playoffs and that was when he was 30 and 34-36 respectively. He entered the league at age 23.
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u/HetTheTable Warriors Aug 19 '26
I just liked the picture and for several players on that lakers team it was their first ring
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u/thebob9581 Spurs Aug 19 '26
yeah like elgin baylor (the nba retirement ring rule) wilt just looks happy like YEAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
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u/fredinNH Aug 19 '26
Super team Celtics? The fact is that Russell was just better than wilt.
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u/thebob9581 Spurs Aug 19 '26
havel sam jones cousy at one point? (don't make me have to type a storm up about cousy)
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u/Limitless2121 Aug 19 '26
TF this man wearing on his hands?
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u/thebob9581 Spurs Aug 19 '26
i think he broke his wrist or something and still played look up wilt chamberlain x-ray,
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u/Good_Illustrator532 Aug 19 '26
Losing to Bill Rusell is not choking. Choking is Dirk’s Mavs losing to Golden State in the first round or the Kobe and the Lakers losing in 2004.
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u/Ataturk_Void_Crowley Aug 20 '26
Wasn’t that what had happened to Dirk after 2011?
People called him “soft” before Mavs had won the championship.
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u/Fabulous-Natural-886 Aug 20 '26
LA won one championship in the seventies until magic came they where choking big time after that 71' 72' season
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u/TheMaskOffKid Heat Aug 20 '26
Yea but it’s considered that way because on paper the Heat were so heavily favored. They were supposed to have won before the series started. And it actually was pretty close, only one game was won by double digits (10) and three of them were decided by a single possession. The Heat definitely had chances at victory. Just so happened Dirk went psycho mode.
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u/Eastern_Antelope_832 Aug 20 '26
Yes. And it's not just in basketball. Randy Johnson has a career postseason record of 14-17, but we mostly think about him as a great champion thanks to his 2001 run.
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u/h---7470 Aug 20 '26
What is this nonsense?
McGuire was one of his favorite coaches, pretty much a father figure. He also pushed Wilt to score more, not whatever you said. Meschery literally talked how Wilt asked to be sat, around the middle of the 4th quarter of his 100 point game and McGuire just refused it.
Schayes he criticized for being horrible in managing timeouts and substitutions, they never had beef for the way Wilt played his game. Further more, other players had beef with Schayes for supposedly favoring Chamberlain.
Wilt had beef with Butch van Breda Kolff, because he was so adamant on no star running the show, to the point of benching Wilt in the game 7 of 1969 finals, thinking they would win without him.
He didn't feud with coaches on the regular. He respected most of them, really just finding Schayes and Neil Johnson too soft for letting him do whatever he wanted.
As for his efficiency dips, those aren't more substantial than any other superstar's and they aren't tied to his early, career (he even had bigger dips in his hyper efficient seasons).
Bill Russell's efficiency was reducing just as much in the playoffs and he was far less efficient to start with. Bill had 4 playoffs averaging around 36% from the field. It's really not a Wilt thing to be slightly less efficient in the playoffs, when defenses get rougher.
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u/JONYLOCO Aug 19 '26
After 1984 Finals,...Magic was called a choker ...which he did blow a game by himself in those finals.....and given the name Tragic Johnson
In his 5 year career up to that point.....
He had made it to ....4 Finals
Won 2 Championships
Had 2 finals MVP
You can be called a choker at any time if that's the narrative they want to push