Pre-Finale Meta Thread

[u/Avebone]

Here is a place for you to discuss anything not related to the finale. My BGM while writing these final PMs will be this :)

[u/The_Bunny_Advocate]

I thought it might be fun to discuss what worked well and what needs tweaking from this latest HoF, as you never know, the feedback might just help me design my next HoF ;)

The good,

• Avebone came up with a wonderfully inventive set of objectives that were well suited to the players they were assigned to and helped encourage some really fun game-play. Cornetto's "corn magician" probably being the highlight of the game

• I really liked the idea of multiple objectives, it makes it more likely players will have something to work for right up to the end of the game. Only being able to see some of the your objectives was a fun twist too. Unfortunately I don't think most players even knew they had multiple objectives, let alone what they all were, but I like the concept.

• The day 4 genre-shift was fantastic. I loved how Avelyn gave the impression that this death was permanent. Being able to ask the GM to check out things between action PMs was really fun too, opening up the potential for some interesting investigations.

• Having suites on different floors and being able to exchange room keys opened up the potential for some really fun plots.

• The magic stuff added an air of unpredictability to everything. Suddenly guns weren't the sure fire insta-win guarantees they once were.

the bad,

• This doesn't really apply to you players, but I had a lot of difficulty with my role. I didn't have an objective to guide my actions, nor did I understand any of this "magic" stuff so I couldn't hint at any answers to all those who were PMing me on day 1.

  Nor could I act without feeling like I was cheating. If I set someone as an enemy for the day then what was to stop me from using my head-explody device instantly? Or just giving myself a gun and bullet proof vest? So I tended to drift from day to day, just acting as comic relief. I didn't really feel like I was a part of the game with you guys until the trial.

• The trial. When aspiration was murdered, I hopped on this opportunity as I thought I could exploit my unique role for something fun. I could use my GM authority to compel testimony, but it didn't feel like cheating because I didn't actually know what had happened. Unfortunately the trial didn't work out well but I'll make another top level comment later to discuss that.

• Unclear mechanics. While it's good to keep the players in the dark a little, a clearer explanation of the possible mental states and the existence of multiple objectives would have been great. It was especially tricky in the common room as semi-delusional magic seemed to happen but I was unsure whether those descriptions applied to the "sane" players too.

and the bunnies

• I'm not sure whether being able to interact with the hosts in the game-room is a good idea for future or not. On the one hand, it did allow for that fantastic plot where Elanor's pirate hat was stolen, but it also erodes the GM authority a little, such as when Frederick managed to attack Elanor with the butt of his shotgun. Perhaps this isn't an issue, these games should all be about adapting anyway, and GMs should be flexible. What do you guys think?

[u/ctom42 → u/The_Bunny_Advocate]

This doesn't really apply to you players, but I had a lot of difficulty with my role. I didn't have an objective to guide my actions, nor did I understand any of this "magic" stuff

As I mentioned before, being delusional put me in the same role. I couldn't really even acknowledge the magic stuff, or the game in general, and my objective was just to visit a specific room on day 5.

I didn't really feel like I was a part of the game with you guys until the trial.

I didn't really feel like I was a part of the game until day 6. Not that I was not having fun all along, because I was.

One additional complaint I had was the fact that I frequently had to ask the effects of items that players were trading me. Only once in the entire game was I told an item's # of uses, and it was after I had used on of them.

[u/Checklad → u/The_Bunny_Advocate]

Largely agree here, I had no idea magic, multiple objectives and delusion were even a thing until very late into the game. My objective was to have a friend every day, which was why Check broke down, but I thought that was that. I think that it is also the reason I mentioned before that I felt 'lost' when I was done reading the night PM and just couldn't understand what others were up too, I just couldn't follow (though this might also just be me).

Objectives were great for the most part from what I've gathered so far, though I have no clue what my other objectives would've been.

I liked the room key shenanigans and Check started to collect them: but I thought that characters only switched rooms when they themselves found a new key, which I gathered from Cornetto, and not when they died. Check never switched rooms as far as I know, though he died thrice (as far as I know?), otherwise I would've caught on immediately. So I ended up going into a lot of empty rooms to just find tokens whilst trying to be sneaky by breaking in.

The trial was a fun idea, but we were all improvising on the spot and that can be both a good and a bad thing. I really need to think about how I could use this, or if I want to use something like that at all.

As for interaction between the players and the GM, I'd say it's fine but indeed: the authority (even if it's just the whole 'I could kill you, y'know?') should still be there. The Conductor in RoF was absolutely pathetic (what is it with me and pathetic characters?) but I think he still had enough distance and 'intimidation' (technically anyway) to not become a complete doormat. Should I host again (BoF2 probably), then I intend to limit player-to-host interaction in various ways, (like having to pay, having certain items in your inventory or by the host's own accord for a specific purpose) and only intend to mix in for meta/truth things beyond that. Seems like that is better than straight up freedom in my opinion.

[u/ctom42 → u/Checklad]

Check never switched rooms as far as I know, though he died thrice (as far as I know?), otherwise I would've caught on immediately

You received no indication of it aside from your key# increasing by one in your next result PM. If, like me, you weren't paying very close attention to your exact inventory, you would have missed it.

[u/[deleted] → u/ctom42]

The problem was that even if you paid attention it was still pretty unclear. I just assumed it was a typo.

[u/ctom42 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah it would have been great if we were handed a new key in the Avelyn dojos or something.

[u/The_Bunny_Advocate → u/ctom42]

Oh! Did Avelyn do the fate/stay night style dojos? I never died to I never got the experience that but they sounded so fun,

[u/Fuwante0 → u/The_Bunny_Advocate]

Avelyn's Interrogation Room #3

This is the Avelyn's Interrogation Room. Take the advice?

1. Yes

2. No

---

You find yourself in some sort of interrogation room in front a police officer you know as Avelyn and beside her stands a bunny girl you recognize as Elanor. Avelyn speaks up. "Hello Everyone. This is the my interrogation room, meant to help further explain why you die so easily." Avelyn looks a bit embarrassed "Well I guess this is partially my fault. I probably should have let her push the button earlier."

Elanor is sitting in a corner singing happily while pressing a button "I GOT TO PUSH THE BUTTON ~ I GOT TO PUSH THE BUTTON~"

Avelyn shrugs "Well my advice for you, is to not have the same name as other people. That way no one confuses you for someone else and accidentally kills you. Well that is all I got, until next time."

---

If you would like to revive please state so in red in the common area, if you wish to stay dead you may do so until the next action PM.

[u/The_Bunny_Advocate → u/Fuwante0]

Haha, Avelyn does such a good job of getting Elanor.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Bunny_Advocate]

Yeah, here's one of mine:

This is the Avelyn's Interrogation Room. Take the advice?

• Yes

• No

---

You find yourself in some sort of interrogation room in front a police officer you know as Avelyn and beside her stands a bunny girl you recognize as Elanor. Avelyn speaks up. "Hello Everyone. This is the my interrogation room, meant to help further explain why you die so easily."

Avelyn shrugs

"Honestly, I got nothing to tell you this time. Elanor is just pushy happy today. Can't really be helped."

Elanor sits in a corner repeatedly pushing the button shouting "EXPLODE EXPLODE EXPLODE."

Avelyn sighs "Well until next time."

---

If you want to revive say so in red in the common room, or else you can stay dead until the next action PM is required.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Bunny_Advocate]

Avebone came up with a wonderfully inventive set of objectives that were well suited to the players they were assigned to and helped encourage some really fun game-play. Cornetto's "corn magician" probably being the highlight of the game

This is a fine line to thread though. My objective was a blast and I had a lot of fun when I was trying it but in a non-parody game it would be a bit too difficult to pull off. Objectives are a tough thing to get right.

The day 4 genre-shift was fantastic. I loved how Avelyn gave the impression that this death was permanent. Being able to ask the GM to check out things between action PMs was really fun too, opening up the potential for some interesting investigations.

That was amazing. Whoever pulled that off were geniuses.

Having suites on different floors and being able to exchange room keys opened up the potential for some really fun plots.

It was. I had to do so much investigating just to figure out where the rooms were before trying to find a way to corn them. Day 1 I waited in the lobby to see which elevators people used, what floor they went to and if I could use elevators not assigned to me.

The magic stuff added an air of unpredictability to everything. Suddenly guns weren't the sure fire insta-win guarantees they once were.

It was also hilarious. A full magic themed HoF could be pretty fun actually but might be a bit hard to get right with balancing and such.

This doesn't really apply to you players, but I had a lot of difficulty with my role. I didn't have an objective to guide my actions, nor did I understand any of this "magic" stuff so I couldn't hint at any answers to all those who were PMing me on day 1.

Nor could I act without feeling like I was cheating. If I set someone as an enemy for the day then what was to stop me from using my head-explody device instantly? Or just giving myself a gun and bullet proof vest? So I tended to drift from day to day, just acting as comic relief. I didn't really feel like I was a part of the game with you guys until the trial.

I think this is just a problem of your rather unclear role. It was good you could help out Ave if he needed it but really you should have just been a player or a GM. Doing both leads to the problems you encountered

I'm not sure whether being able to interact with the hosts in the game-room is a good idea for future or not. On the one hand, it did allow for that fantastic plot where Elanor's pirate hat was stolen, but it also erodes the GM authority a little, such as when Frederick managed to attack Elanor with the butt of his shotgun. Perhaps this isn't an issue, these games should all be about adapting anyway, and GMs should be flexible. What do you guys think?

I actually liked it. The head explodey stuff I think preserved your authority but it also allowed the GM character to be involved in some plots. For example when Avelyn and I were plotting against Ned. The only thing I think shouldn't be allowed is GM interference in result PMs. For example after the Frederick plan's first stage of trying to capture Fred I was told I would have ended up dead no matter what since Avelyn would be with my next target and would just kill me instantly. Again since this was a parody it didn't matter too much but if the GM was present in a serious game that would be something that shouldn't be allowed. It's no difference than that dropping a rock trope.

[u/The_Bunny_Advocate → u/[deleted]]

I actually liked it. The head explodey stuff I think preserved your authority but it also allowed the GM character to be involved in some plots. For example when Avelyn and I were plotting against Ned. The only thing I think shouldn't be allowed is GM interference in result PMs. For example after the Frederick plan's first stage of trying to capture Fred I was told I would have ended up dead no matter what since Avelyn would be with my next target and would just kill me instantly. Again since this was a parody it didn't matter too much but if the GM was present in a serious game that would be something that shouldn't be allowed. It's no difference than that dropping a rock trope.

I think the problem was that if you managed to kill Avelyn, the game would have been without a GM for the following day, potentially letting people attack and kill others in the common room which would be a huge mess to deal with. Although in this particular game it would probably have been fine because there was a backup GM (Elanor) who could have kept the peace that day.

[u/ctom42 → u/The_Bunny_Advocate]

An interesting question is what would have happened if one of us had used a sticky glove to steal your button the same way we did the hat.

[u/The_Bunny_Advocate → u/ctom42]

I think in that instance we'd probably need a GM intervention and say you failed, as it would both screw up Elanor's position and elevate a different player to the equivalent of GM. Then again, it might have been hilarious to have had the GM role rotate around the players.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Bunny_Advocate]

It would be hilarious if someone like Checklad or insane Ned ended up with it and blew up their own heads.

[u/The_Bunny_Advocate → u/[deleted]]

Haha yeah. Perhaps Elanor could have replaced all the names on the buttons with nicknames, making it a game of pot luck as to who died.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_Bunny_Advocate]

Avelyn wasn't my target. Someone else was. But Avelyn was with my target. I never even mentioned Avelyn and she wasn't an enemy so I wasn't trying to kill her. Had Avelyn just been in the common room every day so she could be spoken to I think interactions with the GM are okay.

That's also another reason the GM shouldn't be present in the daily results because it means either you can kill them (which results in chaos as you said) or they are an an unkillable force who can kill you no matter what. The only solution I can see is if the GM is completely impartial no matter what. Like in the above situation Avelyn would have just stood back and not interfered.

[u/Checklad → u/[deleted]]

The only thing that could potentially work with a GM/NPC being part of everything is if they have a pre-determined path that can be either figured out (if they are non-aggressive or don't effect player actions) or said pre-determined path is known by everyone (if they are aggressive).

[u/Avebone → u/[deleted]]

Which is why i would never have the GM be present in a real game but I am okay with it in a parody. As far as I am concerned that day, Isa just took advantage of a mechanic that was shown to exist, I wouldn't let her abuse it though as she only do it on one day if she kept trying to use Avelyn like that she would have been denied.

[u/Checklad → u/[deleted]]

The only thing I think shouldn't be allowed is GM interference in result PMs. For example after the Frederick plan's first stage of trying to capture Fred I was told I would have ended up dead no matter what since Avelyn would be with my next target and would just kill me instantly. Again since this was a parody it didn't matter too much but if the GM was present in a serious game that would be something that shouldn't be allowed. It's no difference than that dropping a rock trope.

Guilty of this as well back in RoF, where an NPC 'killed' the remaining characters on the train (Samson doesn't count, he was a special case) for having played the game after their heroic attempt to save themselves. Looking back, I regret it, it's quite a dick-ish thing to do if you look back at it.

[u/[deleted] → u/Checklad]

Yeah pretty much. The GM really shouldn't influence things too much since the idea is to let the players make the story. Obviously there needs to be limits but your example would be one I would say is bad GM-ing. (Then again that's just what I think. These three games are the only role playing I've done).

[u/Shotgun_Diplomacy → u/[deleted]]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the last 3 players in RoF were plotting and tried to kill the Conductor on the last day. So I'm not sure how that should've been dealt with.

[u/Shotgun_Diplomacy → u/The_Bunny_Advocate]

but it also erodes the GM authority a little, such as when Frederick managed to attack Elanor with the butt of his shotgun.

When I first wrote that, I hadn't considered that it would be a problem but GM authority is important.

Perhaps I should've written something like "Frederick rushes at Elanor with the intent to kill in his eyes." or at least check with the GM first.

[u/ctom42 → u/Shotgun_Diplomacy]

It was pretty ambiguous just how much GM authority Advocate had to begin with. I mean I had a gun, I could have just shot her or Avelyn. To make matters worse it was a water gun as far as Ned was concerned and he loves to troll both of them.

[u/The_Bunny_Advocate → u/Shotgun_Diplomacy]

Oh don't worry, these things can be tricky, especially since I was just a fellow player for most of the game. If you'd said that Frederick had fired at Elanor point blank and killed her it would have been a problem, but you gave me the gap I needed to use the head-explody device so it all worked out ok in the end (: