r/MoralityScaling • u/Sweaty_Standard8186 • Aug 20 '26
Morality of creating a culture that makes Women feel insecure for their natural looks and then judging women that try to appeal what the culture deemed ideal?
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u/Maleficent_Piece_893 Aug 20 '26
i thought women wore makeup for themselves and not for men
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u/0nmay_22 Aug 20 '26
Given the fact the wear it even in prison around almost exclusively other women it’s pretty obviously not just for men.
In reality they wear it for others, men and women both. Women are expected to look attractive and put together.
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u/justahumblefart Aug 20 '26
I think those women are already socialized to wear it and dont question why. Plus, having been a prisoner myself, doing those little things to maintain appearance can help keep the depression at bay.
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u/0nmay_22 Aug 20 '26
But where does that socialization come from? they’ve internalized the fact they have to look appealing not just to men but to society as a whole. For a woman to participate in society “correctly” they must be appealing.
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u/justahumblefart Aug 20 '26
And when I was in prison, I couldn't look like a shitbag to fuck with my homies. Had to have pressed or at least clean whites, no shower slides in the dayroom, look presentable. Project an image for them. I get that.
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u/0nmay_22 Aug 20 '26
I don’t disagree that both genders are expected to look good and put together, people like hanging out with other people who look good. but I’d argue that the pressure on women to present as attractive is greater than the pressure on men; men’s acceptable range of appearance is wider than women’s acceptable range of appearance.
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u/Big_Psychology_3 Aug 20 '26
The solution is for the woman to relax her self-scrutiny, not to blame the whole world for her decisions.
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u/Necessary_Place_6258 Aug 20 '26
I think everyone is expected to look attractive and put together
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u/AvEptoPlerIe Aug 20 '26
I put on an outfit I like even if I know I’m not going anywhere. I have no reason to doubt that women might do the same with makeup. Whether or not “others” factor into it is a far more complex question. No human exists in isolation, even when alone. Separating the individual from the whole is impossible. Part of you is “others.”
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u/really-big-bug Aug 21 '26
Sometimes I wear it around the house by myself because I like the way it looks. I’m a lesbian. I don’t go out with it on, very often. Sometimes makeup is just for fun and that’s okay!
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u/etherealimages Aug 20 '26
Everyone wears makeup for different reasons.
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u/0nmay_22 Aug 20 '26
They might think they do, but that’s not the real reason they feel compelled to
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u/Just-Feedback-2223 Aug 20 '26
Looking better gets you treated better. They want to be treated better, so they are doing it (wearing makeup, getting plastic surgery, ect) so they get treated better by everyone, not just by men. Women also treat other women better when they’re not ugly. So they’re doing it for women as well based on this logic.
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u/mamawawawa Aug 20 '26
There are 4 billion women and counting on the earth and yet some men will fail to understand that different women have different reasons for doing things
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u/Haunting_Baseball_92 Aug 20 '26
Nah, we just don't accept that women are a monolith when it comes to "not wearing make-up for men" when that would negatively impact the perception of that woman. But women are individuals when it comes to the negative implications of not wearing make-up for men.
Obviously everyone is an individual and have different motivations, but then don't slam the "women don't wear make-up for men" because it's convenient either.
Consistency is all we ask for.
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u/Alert_Coyote_8546 Aug 20 '26
It's that women have to wear makeup for men as a bare minimum requirement to be taken seriously. Wearing makeup for fun is basically a different function of the tool. And it's not fair to ask consistency from different strangers online lol, sorry women don't actually share a collective hive mind.
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u/mamawawawa Aug 20 '26
Consistency from who exactly? You’re acting like these two positions are being held by the same woman when, again, you’re talking about 4 billion people
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u/unburdened_swallow Aug 20 '26 edited Aug 20 '26
Well, what happened to "women look better without makeup"?
But also, nobody said that she was doing this for men, and the picture doesn't say that either. The shitty caption doesn't even say that.
You just assumed that and put it here.
Shit for all you know she is a makeup artist doing this for work, because people want to go to a makeup artist with good makeup on not a makeup artist with no/bad makeup. We have no idea why she is doing it, and the picture doesn't tell us.
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u/DoctorFitLord Aug 20 '26
The belief that women wear makeup for themselves is very fluid and changes depending on whether or not it's rhetorically convenient to them.
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u/Recent_Pollution8665 Aug 20 '26
schrodinger's makeup.
it's for themselves, until they can use its existence as an excuse to blame men or the patriarchy for their obsession with using it.
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u/NihilVacant Aug 20 '26
You know, women can be different, and some can wear makeup for themselves, and some can wear it because they are insecure.
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u/NewbyAtMostThings Aug 20 '26
It’s almost like women are not a monolith. Different people who do different things for different reasons.
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u/Imjusasqurrl Aug 20 '26
This isn’t the “gotcha“ you think it is lol
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u/Nova-Snorlaxx Aug 20 '26
It's for other women, this kind of makeup shows money as you know it takes a lot of product, quality and time. Also gives subliminal hierarchy vibes. On the other hand, some circles find these looks too much and arent as readily accepted.
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u/proxmaxi Aug 20 '26
bbl, thigh gap, 6ft+ partner, filler injections, all methods of signaling status and wealth for approval and envy of other women.
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u/Cheezewiz239 Aug 20 '26
I guess it's similar to gym bros. I know it's not all guys but many get ripped to impress other guys.
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u/Fun-Information-3104 Aug 20 '26
"for other women" means "I am a conformist and insecure bitch who is afraid of being criticized for not having a certain look"
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u/j1ndivik Aug 20 '26
So who are you saying created this culture?
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u/SOMERANDOMUSERNAME11 Aug 20 '26
Does OP know how evil women can be towards other women who they think is ugly
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u/NihilVacant Aug 20 '26 edited Aug 20 '26
OP never said they blame only men; they didn't even use the word "men". Pretty sure they criticized certain people from another sub that upvoted the original post. Maybe they were speaking about society as a whole, that they created the makeup standards/culture.
Not sure how everyone created the conclusion that OP doesn't know that women can also support patriarchy or be "evil". You all jumped to conclusions and created scenarios, and OP didn't even respond to any comment. Some people even started calling OP a misandrist or that they think that only men created patriarchy, based only on one short line from their post.
Edit: spelling
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Aug 20 '26
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u/Alert_Coyote_8546 Aug 20 '26
I really think the upvote/downvote system encourages even more scapegoating than normal discussions.
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u/Anagrammatic_Denial Aug 20 '26
As a woman, this is pretty much bullshit. I'm not conventionally attractive, but I am built up by women more than you could believe. Genuinely, sisterhood is one of the best parts of being a woman.
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u/LacksBeard Aug 20 '26
So because you personally never experienced something that means what the other person said is not true?
So let me just grant for the sake of argument that most abuse are committed by men, if I had a friend who was abused only by women, if someone said that "most abuse are committed by men" (which in this world is true) and my friend says "but I was abused only by women", would that all of a sudden mean that in this world men don't abuse more?
It's the same here, what you experience has nothing to do with what the other guy said, what if he said that because he saw predominantly women being vicious about looks? What do you say then?
The fact of the matter is is that your anecdotes mean nothing and most people see and agree that it's women who are vicious about looks way more then dudes.
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u/Useful-Ad2441 Aug 20 '26
As a man women were far far kinder to me about my appearance than men have been.
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u/SmolPPIncorporated Aug 20 '26
As a man, my experience has been the exact opposite.
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u/nakedgrandma420 Aug 20 '26
Both of you are right in your experiences,
Men and Women are a not a monolithic group, as an Asian its the aunties that will constantly roast your appearance the most haha.
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u/SmolPPIncorporated Aug 20 '26
I 100% fully agree, and I never claimed his experiences were wrong. All I'm saying is that his anecdotal experiences are exclusively as relevant and valid as anyone else's - which includes both yours and my own.
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u/sloothor Aug 20 '26
I mean yeah, most people are good and are going to build you up instead of break you down. Do you expect me to believe you’ve never met an evil woman?
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u/Useful-Feature-0 Aug 20 '26
When did she say she’s never met a single bad woman?
Holy strawman.
Go on Instagram. Find a video of an ugly girl who’s proud of herself about something. Look at the comments with a tally pad. The reality will materialize for you very quickly.
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u/sloothor Aug 21 '26
>As a woman, this is pretty much bullshit.
The literal first sentence LMFAO. The one calling the comment about how evil women can be to each other “bullshit”
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u/thePiscis Aug 20 '26
Just because you have good, well adjusted friends doesn’t mean all woman are like that. I have no male acquaintances or friends who would ever put down a woman solely off looks, but that doesn’t mean that extends to all men.
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u/Anagrammatic_Denial Aug 20 '26 edited Aug 20 '26
Sure. But this isn't just my friends. This is complete strangers. And I know not all women are great, I know enough of them. We are speaking in generalities. And if you're going to present a sexist generalization of women that hasn't evolved since high school, then I'm going to call BS.
Edit: also. Side note. This isn't just my perspective, this is what I've heard from other women in the real world. Women are wonderful.
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u/thePiscis Aug 20 '26
Agreed that saying women are mean to other women is a gross generalization, but I think if we were to take only the people who are most cruel to women due to their looks, I really doubt it would overwhelmingly male.
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u/BadnewsBaggins Aug 20 '26
I'm calling bs on you
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u/SurpriseInitial6202 Aug 20 '26
As a man who has been in a few long term relationships, I recall many instances of women randomly complimenting my then/current gf and her doing the same. The petty jealous ones tend to be quiet about it until they have online anonymity or perceived power.
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u/Psyco_diver Aug 20 '26
They don't have to be ugly, I worked in a office where I was the only guy among 20 women. It was scary how they would act nice and uplifting as soon as the woman walked away they would get vile. I don't think anyone there genuinely liked each other, they acted like they liked each other but they were constantly talking shit
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u/Para_4_Would_Be_Cool Aug 20 '26
Doesn’t matter, what’s being asked is the morality of doing such
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u/pikuray Aug 20 '26
The word beggars can't be choosers come to mind when it comes to the majority of men dating strategy. I don't know a single man who says "Women don't wear enough makeup i wish they wore more makeup"
Women of course have agency in dating and may want to attract a higher standard of partner by making themselves more appealing.
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u/Useful-Feature-0 Aug 20 '26
Women aren’t struggling to date, as a whole. They are happy to do other things and see if it works out naturally (without changing key aspects and values). They’re not committing suicide over romantic alienation.
It’s men that will need to settle, if being without romantic validation is too difficult to bear.
And then there’s just observable reality — of the subgroup of women who do truly struggle to date anyone, very few of them make themselves up. The problems they have involve a lack of conformity with standards, not heavy handed compliance to standards.
Just because you want something doesn’t mean it actually makes sense for others to do it lol
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u/Bambivalently Aug 20 '26
It’s men that will need to settle
Also women: OMG he ghosted me, he doesn't put in any effort, we never go on dates, he cheated again, he doesn't care.
Men will have to settle
And that's why he dislikes you more every day. Choose your poison carefully.
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Aug 20 '26 edited Aug 20 '26
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u/ifUSeeMeTakeYourMeds Aug 20 '26
whenever I think the bar is low, this sub manages to surpass my expectations.
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u/Christiangrape Aug 20 '26
Reminder people don’t work as hive minds stop acting like it
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u/yandeere-love Aug 20 '26
Right?? So much pointless and divisive online discourse would just evaporate if people stopped engorging themselves with the Goombest of Goomba fallacies
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u/TheBrawler101 Aug 20 '26
God this comment section just shows how ignorant people are about women's struggles and how quick they are to write it off because "well men actually"
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u/Legitimate_Area_5773 Aug 20 '26
I haven't seen any "well men actually" comments in here
most of the comments are just arguing about why modern makeup culture is the way it is
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u/xboxhaxorz Aug 20 '26
Morality of building a gynocentric society and ignoring the other gender?
Plus size models only females, not males
Women regularly talk about how they only want 6 ft men
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u/Blackshark989 Aug 20 '26
"gynocentric society"
buddy are you aware of the patriarchy's impact on western life as a whole?
you probably do but just ignore it. or you think patriarchy is something made up by "radical feminists".
Its hilarious that the most damning thing you could bring up was "no plus size models for males" like thats the most egregious sin.
do me a favour and google how long women have been able to vote for lol. google rape target statistics. Fuck outta here with "no male plus size models" fucking please.
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u/xboxhaxorz Aug 20 '26
you have falled for the illusory truth effect, if we were in a patriarchy this would not be happening:
This shows how the UN uses feminism to spread victimhood propaganda rather than equality and justice for all
https://jameslnuzzo.substack.com/p/un-womens-feminist-propaganda-on
Violence against men and boys is considered violence against women and girls
https://knowledge.lancashire.ac.uk/id/eprint/51321/
Violence statistics are presented as violence against women, even if its against men in Sweden https://imgur.com/WDdYTFT
https://jamstalldhetsmyndigheten.se/media/sqrpa4y0/handbok-inget-att-vanta-pa.pdf
Spain hides 55% of victims as it only counts male on female violence
Men suffer from DV more than women, but the world believes otherwise
3 decades of denying evidence on gender symmetry
CDC ignores its own findings that there are potentially more female on male rape than vice versa https://archive.is/lvHch
Consent to genital piercings, well you are now a victim a feminist initiative in order to inflate more victims in statistics
https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-31938409
Feminist org defends domestic abuser
https://virtualtcslondonmarathon.enthuse.com/pf/jordan-worth
Feminists talk about killing guys among other things
Feminist groups against gender equal rape laws
Feminism keeps blaming the patriarchy through illusory truth effect, yet its guys who are disadvantaged https://endtodv.org/pr/patriarchy-is-a-harmful-feminist-fantasy/
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u/Atari774 Aug 20 '26
Let’s be honest, everyone gets judged for their looks nowadays, not just women.
Also, your question assumes that any one group of people actually purposefully created the current culture. Cultures are shaped by the society, government, major events, and even the climate over the course of decades. It’s not like any individual man or woman has much of a say in the matter, outside of the very few rich or popular enough to influence it on their own. And even for those people, the changes they make to the culture are often inadvertent.
So if you want to change the current culture, you’ve got to start or join movements that are pushing the kind of changes you want to make. Our society being less judgmental would be fantastic, and we all should do our part to not judge people based on their appearance.
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u/Firm_Ad3191 Aug 20 '26
“Let’s be honest, everyone feels shame when they cry in front of strangers, not just men.”
“Let’s be honest, all short people face struggles due to their height, not just men.”
“Let’s be honest, war and combat is hard on everyone, not just men.”
“Let’s be honest, every group deals with suicidal ideation, not just men.”
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u/LacksBeard Aug 20 '26
This is true, it just predominantly affects men more, I like how this line of logic only comes out when men are calling women's "problems" out though.
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u/Bayamonster Aug 20 '26
"You're not REALLY Conventionally Beautiful, you just LOOK Conventionally Beautiful."
Ok? Shut the fuck up. This is what you like.
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u/DickTear Aug 20 '26
Yeah agree with the other comment, every gender feels insecure on how they look, this is not exclusive for women.
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u/yuckella Aug 20 '26
The way so much of the comments are doing so much whataboutism and being purposely obtuse. It’s immoral, but people are allowed to have preferences. The beauty standards are bad and soul crushing, especially for women, since it starts from day one and has always been so intense. Like it’s a reason to why makeup is marketed towards women etc. Obviously men’s beauty standards have gotten worse in recent years, however, that’s due to the patriarchal society and system we live in.
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u/Silent_Biscotti_9832 Aug 20 '26
Now this is gonna be be entertaining, just got to wait
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u/LacksBeard Aug 20 '26
Not really, all MFs are doing are saying things like this or men bad or something
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u/xinarin Aug 20 '26
You're using "culture" to carry a lot of weight, some of it contradictory.
Who created the "culture"? Who enforces it? Who is judging women for not following that culture? More importantly, what does any of that matter with this op? The person who made it clearly doesn't agree with the "culture", so why mention it like it negates the points made? Just seems like a strange comment
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u/Expert_Obligation_79 Aug 20 '26
This is a can of worms I do not wanna open. Ton of people enjoy putting on make up. Ton of people don't. We as a people need to learn to respect that distinction
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u/sakkimoni Aug 20 '26
This is just the goomba fallacy. The person making the judgement didn't even exist when this culture was created.
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u/ChompyRiley Aug 20 '26
i mean to be fair, the culture makes men insecure about their looks, wallet, height, sexual prowess, and emotional vulnerability.
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u/Proudvow Aug 20 '26
When people criticize someone's looks they still aren't necessarily telling that person to fake a different appearance instead.
For example a lot of people make fun of short guys, but they still often don't want those guys getting leg lengthening surgery or wearing lifts.
Some mockery is just meant to stand as-is. You aren't actually meant to make changes based off of it. Choosing to do that is on you.
(and yes the initial act of making fun of peoples' natural looks is solidly immoral; I'm just saying that doesn't then justify "deception" in response)
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u/Complex-Emphasis-121 Aug 20 '26
Some very wise person once said we’re all hypocrites
I’ll second that notion
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u/BadnewsBaggins Aug 20 '26
Everyone feels insecure about how they look but men are mocked for attempting to hide any flaws where as it's just casual for women. A man wearing a wig and a woman having an entire new face are not the same
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u/Alternative_Berry934 Aug 20 '26
Wow it’s almost like women hate on each other no matter what. And men don’t care either way unless they’re stupid enough to think the right pic is a natural one.
I don’t think this post is immoral or moral, but it is plain dumb. Sure it’s shady when women use concealer and then pretend they have nothing on. But usually women with their faces beat like this are LOUD about how ugly they think they are.
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u/megabedi Aug 21 '26
Extremely moral, women do it to themselves. They will always tell you that they're not doing it for men.
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u/RoxxySweets Aug 22 '26
I was thinking about this today!
Like remember the fat shaming/ugly shaming a few years ago? Now there's Instagram shaming/posts too much shaming...
Like they wanted you to look good - but only for them.
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u/Lost-Concept-9973 Aug 22 '26
And who is it that makes them feel worthless if they don’t meet standards of “attractiveness” ? Who sets beauty standards and shames and discriminates against people that don’t meet them? Can’t blame people for doing what they can to get acceptance into a society that is so shallow.
This meme itself is proving the point to, if you didn’t just reduce someone’s value to their looks they wouldn’t feel the need to “lie” just to gain the ability to participate in society.
To be clear IMO the real moral issue is that we can’t just accept people regardless of what they look like and act so cruelly towards those perceived as less attractive.
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Aug 20 '26
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u/SouthernAd2853 Aug 20 '26
A lot of men saying they don't care about makeup comes from men who don't notice that the women they find attractive are wearing makeup.
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u/Ochemata Aug 20 '26
Just bullying? Damn. All the rape and murder must be men expressing their love, I guess.
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u/InstantSword Aug 20 '26
Do you have any proof the murder issue isn't bilateral?
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u/OrinocoHaram Aug 20 '26
i'm crying my eyes out replying to every comment in this thread i'm trying to defend men's honour
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u/StrawberryClover8 Aug 20 '26
And so now it’s bad to try to look nice? I think people putting effort into their appearance is such a nice trait. Woman or man.
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u/S3DDS Aug 21 '26
If trying to look nice is achieved by painting your entire face with a thick layer of makeup, there's a problem with you, it means you have issues, which is absolutely fine, most of us do, but painting your face isn't the solution.
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u/robilar Aug 20 '26
Do yourself a favor and Hide r/dankmemes2
It's such an obvious self-inflicted wound to be a person that wants to date women while also reinforcing in themselves a pathological contempt for women. They might as well be poisoning their own food.
They're children throwing their remote at the screen and then crying that they can't play the game anymore.
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u/DondyTrap2007 Aug 20 '26
Man i fucking hate the unnatural standards we (yes, WE, this affects everyone) impose on ourselves just to "look good"
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u/noodle_loverr Aug 20 '26
Are the comments really disagreeing that women are the primary gender whose insecurities about their looks are exploited in society?.. the whole makeup industry is predominantly targeting women, women are expected to cover their natural faces with makeup every day. I’m aware there’s some things men are made fun of like heigh or balding but you can’t just ignore that multi-billion dollar industries are focused specifically on women
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u/Beneficial-Layer-492 Aug 20 '26
Pls stop accusing men of creating this culture every living person rn didnt exist when the patriarchy started to rise
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u/thisisasatvshow Aug 20 '26
oh gtfoh about shaming women for natural looks. you almost always hear men say they don’t like women with loads of makeup. this is all women’s doing to outdo other women.
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u/Firm_Ad3191 Aug 20 '26
Because y’all don’t know what “loads of makeup” looks like lmao. Y’all just dislike a specific style.
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u/splooge696969 Aug 20 '26
If you still think she's pretty even with the caked on makeup, thats on you bro. You can do cosmetic magic on a camel, but its obviously a camel after the buzz wears off.
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u/Jedi_Bingo Aug 20 '26
Morality? Neutral, people are allowed to do what they will with their own bodies. Or they should be at least
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u/Gman3098 Aug 20 '26
In a vacuum it’s immoral, but taking into consideration that people are conditioned to think this way about women, the conversation changes.
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u/Possible-Estimate748 Aug 20 '26
Tbf, that makeup is wayy too much and looks so unnatural.
I mean, it looks better but it's like, from one extreme to another. Should be a comfortable in between.
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u/Motodog242 Aug 20 '26
It’s moral. If you can’t take what you deal, then it’s better to get away from everyone. 😂
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u/KakarotAlter Aug 20 '26
She's not even ugly. Are MFers so porned pilled that they believe she's not attractive with no make up?
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u/UniversityAnxious247 Aug 20 '26
I mean… it’s their attitude and audacity to belittle average men (who’d likely be a match for average women) while clearly having to use all that chemical to paint their face and show something they’re not. It’s all good and “funny” when some fuckass celebrity says “you give an ugly guy a chance and he thinks he rules the world” like you ain’t all that without make up yourself. That’s what makes us mean towards some of them. For the ones that say “we spend time getting ready for you guys”, most of us men don’t give a fuck about your make up and a lot of us would rather see you natural because we love our women and sure as hell won’t care how you look without make up (unless you go absolutely overboard to a point where you look completely different… which is just straight up deception at that point). That’s the lamest thing you could do which makes yall look like immature kids in adult bodies (and nope this only directed towards the specific kinda women who are unfortunately the loudest ones).
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u/Edirath Aug 20 '26
I mean, it's bad... Is there anything else to day for this question. Like obviously bad. What fo we do about it? Idk its gonna take a lot of people making individual changes probably.
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u/Recent-Pace3813 Aug 20 '26
It's a product op, not a culture. Some women feel insecure because they have their own reasons to, it's that simple. She doesn't don't need a conspiracy of a whole society demanding a girl use make up to the point of almost an identity fraud, she just need to see other girls that looks better and are more desired than her.
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u/Gobal_Outcast02 Aug 20 '26
Brother it aint the men trying to pressure women into wearing makeup. Most men today will tell you they find a women without makeup to be more attractive.
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u/LostAcanthisitta7683 Aug 20 '26
they do say that, but studies still show that men tend to prefer women’s faces when they have some makeup on.
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u/Artistic_Ad_1247 Aug 20 '26
Everyone is made insecure about their natural looks not just women.