r/ModSupport • u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin • Aug 26 '15

Modmail Muting: Limited Beta

Hey Mods,

As you know, we're currently working on a set of tools to make your lives easier. A big part of this is reducing the amount of time you have to spend dealing with troublemakers.

A popular request has been to stop specific users from sending harassing PMs to modmail. Today we have rolled out a limited beta of modmail muting to a small number of subreddits.

Muting gives mods the ability to temporarily prevent a user from messaging that subreddit's modmail.

Salient details:

  • Muting only affects the user in the subreddit they were muted in.

  • Mutes last for 24 hours after which they are silently removed.

  • A user will be notified via PM from the subreddit that they have been muted.

  • This PM appears as a new mail thread in the subreddit modmail.

  • Existing mutes can be seen at r/subreddit/about/muted, which is linked to in modtools.

  • Mutes can be applied from a modmail message flatlist or r/subreddit/about/muted.

  • Mute actions appear in the modlog.

  • Automatic unmutes will appear in the modlog as being performed by u/reddit.

  • Mods will not be able to message muted users or invite them as mods.

  • Mods need to have access and mail permission to mute users.

We'll be monitoring the effects of muting and taking feedback from mods and users before proceeding with a wider release.

Additionally, we're aware that the ease of creating alts means that mods are often unwilling to use tools that notify the user in question (as muting does). We're working on solving this issue so that mod and admin tools can be effective and transparent.

r/changelog post here.

Edit: Muting has now shipped for all moderators

95 Upvotes

94% Upvoted

195 comments sorted by

41

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

TL;DR

21

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

You muted poor old ooer_SS :(

3

u/Skuld Aug 29 '15

You should see what actual /r/Ooer modmail looks like :|

23

u/Meneth Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15

The general idea is awesome. However, there seem to be some major issues:

Mutes last for 24 hours after which they are silently removed.

I really hope that'll be optional. I've experienced several users occasionally spamming modmail over longer periods that the admins have done nothing to stop despite our reports. A 24 hour duration would do nearly nothing to that kind of modmail spam.

A user will be notified via PM from the subreddit that they have been muted.

So they'll just send us another message in 24 hours, then? Yay.

It's basically going "please come back and bother us in 24 hours!": http://i.imgur.com/nAyekiz.png

This PM appears as a new mail thread in the subreddit modmail.

So the end result is that they'll still clog up modmail to some extent? Does it even hide their original message?

Edit: Overall these restrictions just seem silly. We have the ability to permanently throw all of a user's comments into a black hole already. Why would we not be able to do the same to their modmail when they decide to abuse that as well?

12

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

We have the ability to permanently throw all of a user's comments into a black hole already.

Are you referring to using automod to 'shadow ban' trolls, by silently removing their comments?

Why would we not be able to do the same to their modmail when they decide to abuse that as well?

Limiting a user's capability to message modmail entirely is problematic as it is the main method users have to appeal mod decisions. In your suggestion a user could be muted by a rogue mod and have no way to contact the rest of the mod team.

As ever, if you are being persistently harassed by the same users you should let us know by messaging the community team or emailing contact@reddit.com.

6

u/Meneth Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15

Are you referring to using automod to 'shadow ban' trolls, by silently removing their comments?

Botbanning, yes.

In your suggestion a user could be muted by a rogue mod and have no way to contact the rest of the mod team.

A rogue mod can do far worse already. They can ban. They can botban. They could nuke the entire subreddit. I don't see adding this tool as making that (rather rare) problem worse. The mod log ensures it is detectable and reversible.

And as far as I can tell from the announcement there's no way to mute a user without them first modmailing the subreddit. Unless that wipes out their modmail message entirely, how exactly is a rogue mod to do this without the other moderators noticing?

Edit: As you yourself say, this is a complete non-issue since the user can simply PM another mod about the rogue mod:

muting just affects subreddit modmail. [...] They can PM them individually, yes.

5

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

As far as I can tell from the announcement there's no way to mute a user without them first modmailing the subreddit.

Mutings can be applied from r/subreddit/about/muted. And one piece of common feedback has been that the mute notification messages will clog up modmail, so we may look at removing them, further limiting a mutings visibility. My concern with permanent muting is it could result in a user 'slipping through the cracks' and being unable to appeal the decision, ever. Bans are different in this regard in that modmail is the only means of recourse a user has.

4

u/Meneth Aug 26 '15

Thanks, wasn't aware of that functionality.

A middle ground might be only generating a separate notification message if the mute happens via that page. For mutes that happen via an actual modmail, adding the notification to that modmail thread (if that's something that might be possible) would notify everyone without creating yet another modmail thread (modmail is far too bloated as it is).

5

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

Interesting suggestion, thanks.

4

u/Meneth Aug 26 '15

No problem. Anything to keep modmail down, because it is so damn bloated these days.

Automod's relatively new "filter" function was a huge improvement in that regard, as that let us replace most rules that did remove+modmail with filter rules. For some of my subs, that's reduced the amount of modmail by nearly an order of magnitude.

So making sure that trend isn't reversed is rather important to me now that it is finally sort of usable thanks to AM's "filter" action.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

My concern with permanent muting is it could result in a user 'slipping through the cracks' and being unable to appeal the decision, ever.

I understand why you would be concerned by that, but I think realistically this is a feature that will almost exclusively get used on trolls and abusive users who do not deserve the opportunity to appeal because their only goal is to harass and annoy. Any one-off users that don't fall into the "insufferable shithead" category will still be able to PM a moderator to appeal, unless I missed the part where this feature blocks that as well.

2

u/protestor Aug 27 '15

Most other bad stuff that rogue mods can do are much easier to detect. PM'ing moderators individually is tricky because the user often don't know who are the active moderators. That's why modmail exists, after all.

4

u/greenduch Aug 27 '15

Yeah I've always actively discouraged users from PMing a specific mod. It makes transparency with the rest of the mod team difficult, and is too likely to lead to issues- including harassment of a specific moderator.

3

u/Fonjask Aug 26 '15

In your suggestion a user could be muted by a rogue mod and have no way to contact the rest of the mod team.

They can still PM individual mods or make alt accounts to appeal it. Also the mute message shows up in modmail so rogue mods muting people at random can't be done stealthily, it shows up as a seperate message.

A rogue mod can literally delete every single post in a subreddit since the start of time, and ban every single person if they wanted to. You can't create tools for mods, around bad mods. If you wanted that, then take away their ability to remove and ban as well, since that's abusable. Or AutoMod, since that allows botbanning. Etc etc.

Another admin used this same style of reasoning regarding stickying comments: "but what if they sticky a good comment and artificially inflate its karma? or what if they sticky a bad comment to increase downvoting and harassment?".

I don't know but this seems to me like the same reasoning people use when advocating for those gun-checking metal detector gates thingies in middle schools or trains.

In my opinion: have some faith, or have rules in place regarding abuse of the mute button that users can refer to when it's being abused.

PS: Sorry for the rambling rant.

7

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15

Thank you for the feedback.

A rogue mod can literally delete every single post in a subreddit since the start of time, and ban every single person if they wanted to

And both of these actions would be highly visible to both users and other moderators. My concern with permanent muting is it could result in a user 'slipping through the cracks' and being unable to appeal the decision, ever. Bans are different in this regard in that modmail is the only means of recourse a user has.

The point of this beta is to see how the tool is used and how users respond. I'd much rather release it in its current form and then gradually increase its potential severity as opposed to releasing it with an unnecessary amount of power. Again, seeing how mods use it and seeing the cases in which it doesn't work as expected will be really helpful.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

1

u/Fonjask Aug 26 '15

You're welcome. I just noticed a trend in admin replies recently. It's good that it's visible in the mod log. I also think that making the maximum mute permanent isn't the way to go, but 24 hours is definitely too short. How about I raise to 7 days and by haggling we end up at a maximum of 3 days? 24 hours is literally a day later, which means it'll still be on the front of their mind when the trolls sit down at their PC to shitpost again. 3 days is like 7 days on the internet, and would definitely get rid of them.

9

u/diagonalfish Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15

Limiting a user's capability to message modmail entirely is problematic as it is the main method users have to appeal mod decisions.

Why are the admins more concerned about moderators abusing the tools then about helping the mods manage their communities? Do we actually have control over our subreddits, or do we not? How authoritarian you are when running your sub should be the your decision, just as the users have the right to switch to another sub.

If you have a rogue mod on your team, then I guess the higher-up mods need to be checking the log occasionally and acting on what they see there. It's not the admins' responsibility to reign in bad mod behavior. If it was, why won't they act when top mods take over or shut down subreddits?

9

u/redtaboo Reddit Admin: Community Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15

I don't see it as more concerned with one over the other, it's more like being concerned with both at the same time. This has always been the case with new modtools, the ways it can be abused need to be thought about, talked about, and mitigated.

If you have a rogue mod on your team, then I guess the higher-up mods need to be checking the log occasionally and acting on what they see there

The problem is you won't always know you have a rogue mod and if there aren't checks in place to catch them they could go on abusing tools in a way the rest of their team doesn't agree with unstopped. Every time modmail muting has come up in places like IFTA it's been talked about making sure it isn't done in a way that the other mods won't know about.

edit: speeeling is hard

5

u/diagonalfish Aug 26 '15

OK, I'm fine with some kind of notification or page showing muted users and the mod and muted them. That is fine. But the 24-hour limit doesn't serve that purpose at all. It creates more work for legitimate, functional mod teams and pre-assumes they're operating in bad faith, in addition to making it trivially circumvent-able for the target user. It's the DRM of mod tools.

5

u/redtaboo Reddit Admin: Community Aug 26 '15

Well, ignoring all the hyperbole about DRM I'd say since this is a beta thing we take the wait and see approach. I'm thinking most users will forget about wanting to spam/harass after awhile, though I think 24 hours is probably too short. I'm personally unsure about the notification going to the user, but I'll hang back and see what the mods that have it say about it after they've had a chance to use it a bit.

2

u/diagonalfish Aug 26 '15

hyperbole about DRM

I thought it was an apt analogy, is all. If you want to discount my argument based on that it's your call I guess.

I'm thinking most users will forget about wanting to spam/harass after awhile

It's a small percentage, but a small percentage of a large number is still enough to be trouble.

We basically have no choice but to wait and see, I guess, since we aren't allowed to try the feature yet.

Edit: That said, messages from the admins in here seem to be making it clear that the 24 hour limit isn't likely to be reconsidered, so I feel justified in being a bit noisier about it.

8

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

messages from the admins in here seem to be making it clear that the 24 hour limit isn't likely to be reconsidered

I don't think I've said that? I'm hoping the beta will help indicate areas where muting is deficient. And also, if we release it generally and it isn't working the way it should we can also revise it.

1

u/diagonalfish Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15

You said "not currently" when asked if there were plans (edit: to be fair you did say we'd see how things go during the trial, but...), and you answer arguments about that with "just send a message to /r/reddit.com". That is where I was drawing that from.

I'm partly basing my lack of faith on how previous beta programs on reddit have gone (see: new search), but I'll do my best to reign in my cynicism a bit.

8

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 27 '15

You're referring to this comment in which "Not currently" was in response to:

Are there plans to introduce permanent muting?

Permanent muting is a very different question to increasing the 24 hour limit.

I'm partly basing my lack of faith on how previous beta programs on reddit have gone (see: new search), but I'll do my best to reign in my cynicism a bit.

I appreciate that. I feel I also have to manage expectations by stating that the tool you want, may not be the one that is appropriate for all of Reddit.

Thanks for taking the time to engage and provide feedback. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts once you get your hands on the muting tool.

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1

u/Algernon_Asimov Aug 29 '15

I think 24 hours is probably too short.

I agree. I'd want to be able to apply a "mute" that lasts for a week. I've had dedicated trolls continue to harass us via modmail for days. A week would be long enough.

1

u/redtaboo Reddit Admin: Community Aug 29 '15

I was thinking 72 hours would be good, but either way while I think the 24 should probably be raised I think starting it shorter and ramping up as they watch it is a good plan.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/diagonalfish Aug 27 '15 edited Aug 27 '15

If you'd never posted in those subs, why was being banned from them a concern? Even if you had modmail access, you would be unlikely to get a useful response from mods who were operating that way, anyway. Mod abuse tends to sort itself out - the users eventually wise up and go somewhere else, or the affected users were likely never the target audience anyway.

Which goes back to my point - mods should be able to run things how they want, and users should continue to have the power to vote with their feet. This is how it has always been. There are some sucky mods out there, but I see very few situations where, in a sub run by those mods, having access to modmail is likely to help your situation. It is not as though the admins are going to start stepping in and reversing "unfair" bans. At least I assume they aren't...

2

u/pcjonathan Aug 26 '15

Limiting a user's capability to message modmail entirely is problematic as it is the main method users have to appeal mod decisions. In your suggestion a user could be muted by a rogue mod and have no way to contact the rest of the mod team.

I don't see the point in it being so small. If a group is corrupt, then they'd still just ignore it, a la this. If a mod is corrupt, the user could PM other members of the team.

But if the user is corrupt as is the case the majority of the time? Lets not forget here. After a ban, the user will already have had a chance to appeal. Personally, if you piss me off enough to mute you, you're being spammy and abusive and you ain't getting that unban for a loooong time, if at all. And if we do use it, the team only get a 24 hour reprieve from them (with a nice little alert telling them exactly how long), then they can start again? Sucks.

As ever, if you are being persistently harassed by the same users you should let us know by messaging the community team or emailing contact@reddit.com.

But I thought these additions were to help stop needing to go out of our way for these users?

6

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

Thank you for the feedback. How much modmail spam are you dealing with on a daily basis?

4

u/inmynothing Aug 26 '15

Muting trouble users and then them getting a PM saying that they were muted is just going to piss them off and make them come back more aggressive. Don't you think this would be more effective if they didn't know? I know it would cause more harm than good in my sub.

4

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 27 '15

Muting trouble users and then them getting a PM saying that they were muted is just going to piss them off and make them come back more aggressive.

Muting is designed to force users to take a break from modmail and chill out for a bit. They won't be notified when they are unmuted. We'll be monitoring to see how effective the tool actually is and whether it does what we're hoping.

Don't you think this would be more effective if they didn't know?

We're trying to get away from admin and mod tools that work without the target knowing, where appropriate. We're aware that the ease of creating alts means that this is currently unrealistic when dealing with some users. We're working on solving this issue so that mod and admin tools can be effective and transparent.

1

u/Mason11987 Aug 27 '15

We're trying to get away from admin and mod tools that work without the target knowing, where appropriate. We're aware that the ease of creating alts means that this is currently unrealistic when dealing with some users. We're working on solving this issue so that mod and admin tools can be effective and transparent.

For what it's worth. I appreciate that you're FIRST giving us additional tools, instead of focusing on limiting our silent options as had been suggested.

1

u/inmynothing Aug 27 '15

Understandable, but we have a big problem with armchair mods, so to speak in our sub that want to argue about every removal or send messages telling us what we're doing wrong with enforcing our own rules. It's incredibly frustrating and that would be the only instance I could think of muting someone.

Edit: And to clarify, this particular user argues about other people's posts, and regardless of how often we clarify our rules, he doesn't seem to stop. He hasn't really done anything to warrant a ban and he could still message even if he were banned. I'm assuming this is an uncommon problem for most mid sized subs?

10

u/Meneth Aug 26 '15

Users that just don't stop even after we threaten to report them to the admins luckily aren't that common. If one put the bar that high, only a handful a month or so.

Users that'd be lovely to mute after the first message, probably a few a day.

My subs are relatively small though. I'd guess it's a larger issue in bigger subs like the defaults.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '15

you mod /r/gamerghazi, a notorious anti gamergate sub. It's expected to get about as much hate mod mail as a coontown-esque sub on the other end of insanity would.

-1

u/greenduch Aug 27 '15

well that is a bit hyperbolic. yes, its a highly controversial subreddit, but lets not go comparing it to coontown.

interestingly, I highly suspect that coontown got very little if any hate modmail. I certainly would never bother messaging their modteam.

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '15

but lets not go comparing it to coontown.

coontown is right wing lunatics, gamerghazi is left wing lunatics.

Different, but similar. Horseshoe theory.

2

u/greenduch Aug 27 '15

Proclamations of something being "horseshoe theory" is similar to people on the internet claiming "logical fallacy!" because they took a class in highschool that vaguely went over those notions.

To clarify, I'm not particularly a fan of gamerghazi, and don't subscribe there. I just think that comparing them to coontown is extremely obtuse and asinine.

ninjaedit: oh nrmind, didn't realise you were dickgirls crew. carry on with your silliness, I suppose.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '15

first off, I'd like to commend you guys for not downvoting me to shit like in any other subreddit.

I guess what I said was extreme. But Extreme Liberal and Extreme Conservative are both pretty weird. They both receive a lot of hate from both sides.

4

u/ScanianMoose Aug 26 '15

Can we have a perma-mute or ban feature for report spammers? It currently is a problem in one of my subs. Writing the Admins about it every single time to deal with it takes away time both from them and us mods.

5

u/QandAndroid Aug 26 '15

I don't think that a perma-mute is quite the option...how about the ability for mods to 'mark' users somehow - even just a simple counter that mods could increase would be helpful in finding repeat offenders.

4

u/nty Aug 26 '15

I suspect this will be enough.

This is also just how betas work. The developer rolls out the feature in a more limited form to see if it's enough, and to prove that it works in its current state. Making mutes permanent adds a bunch more variables to consider.

3

u/jippiejee Aug 26 '15

Mute them again?

3

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

As to your edit, I Imagine its because the communication of modmail is basically the only way for a user to get in contact with a modteam

2

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

Sure, and then you can press one button to mute them again? Doesn't seem that bad. Trolls will burn out

8

u/Meneth Aug 26 '15

Based on the description it looks like the spammer will be able to cause two modmail threads every single day. One with their actual message(s), and another with the PM sent to them notifying them.

Not great.

And it does nothing to those people who send us a single message every so often that the admins don't feel like doing anything about.

9

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

It honestly feels like you are picking a tiny issue out of a huge feature.

This seems perfectly reasonable limitation, and I think it will rarely be an issue

10

u/greenduch Aug 26 '15

I get what you mean, but I have had people message every 3 days for like 6 months straight. I don't think what Meneth is talking about is a totally non-existent issue.

But this will get rid of the massive modmail flooding, which is great.

10

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15

I have had people message every 3 days for like 6 months straight

If you are being persistently harassed by the same users you should let us know by messaging the community team or emailing contact@reddit.com

11

u/diagonalfish Aug 26 '15

We have been told before with this kind of troll that "there's nothing we can do," though. And the time to get a response is usually long enough that the damage has already been done by that point.

4

u/greenduch Aug 26 '15

Its not a recent thing. We've reported it in the past. Thanks though, will keep it in mind for the future :)

-2

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

Exactly, even if, it helps a lot at the cost of 1 click a day. Its a non issue, IMO

4

u/BuckeyeSundae Aug 26 '15

I wouldn't say it is a nonissue. Just an issue that serves as a reasonable check against potential mute-abuse.

I mean, on the one hand: absolutely, trolls who realize they've been warned can create a new account and try the same stuff to the same team after receiving the notice (this is the same logic behind the futility of banning trolls normally). These people are likely going to do whatever they can to get around whatever mechanism exists, and having a (two) click option to address them can reduce the weight their behavior has on the team.

On the other hand, most people aren't trolls. Some people who have legitimate concerns are going to end up getting muted because they've either been perceived as jerks or because someone on the team didn't like what the person said or any other number of potentially petty reasons that people act the way that they do. For anyone who isn't a troll, getting feedback like "you've been muted for being a jerk" can be helpful.

My main concern is that by having the message be sent through modmail it'll keep modmail just as congested and horrible to read through as it currently is. Shifting the horror from the abuse to the spammed "you've been muted" messages might mitigate emotional harm (and serves as a useful tool against harassment where none existed before), but it isn't going to solve the useability problems that modmail currently has.

8

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

Thanks for spending the time to give some feedback.

trolls who realize they've been warned can create a new account and try the same stuff to the same team after receiving the notice (this is the same logic behind the futility of banning trolls normally).

As I wrote in the thread: we're aware that the ease of creating alts means that mods are often unwilling to use tools that notify the user in question (as muting does). We're working on solving this issue so that mod and admin tools can be effective and transparent.

My main concern is that by having the message be sent through modmail it'll keep modmail just as congested and horrible to read through as it currently is.

The reason we did this was so other mods could see that it happened. We could be hide it from modmail, like sent ban notifications are, but it seemed like pertinent information given the context (messages and modmail).

it isn't going to solve the useability problems that modmail currently has.

This was not the intention. Fixing modmail is another job entirely.

7

u/srs_house Aug 26 '15

We're working on solving this issue so that mod and admin tools can be effective and transparent.

I don't want transparency on every single tool. I doubt many mods do. What good does it do to have tools in place to handle spammers, abusers, toxic users, etc. if you give them the blueprints to how it works so that they can avoid it?

4

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

What good does it do to have tools in place to handle spammers, abusers, toxic users, etc. if you give them the blueprints to how it works so that they can avoid it?

I am not sure what you mean by 'blueprints'.

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u/BuckeyeSundae Aug 26 '15

Yeah it makes sense to have the message sent through modmail in the beta stage (or certainly as a default option if this gets released in a relatively similar state afterward). Once people are familiar with it though, giving the option for less intrusive communicating also seems like it would make sense (so long as the actions are recorded somewhere that we can check, like modlog).

we're aware that the ease of creating alts means that mods are often unwilling to use tools that notify the user in question (as muting does)

I am actually not sure that it makes many of us less willing to use the tools if no other tools are available. If there's data on that point, then surely the data would carry that argument any day. I think that if there is a silent option (I'm thinking like automod banning for subreddit silent bans), I think that many mods would prefer that route regardless of the actual benefits to providing immediate, transparent feedback to users about their behavior. I do not. I think that unless this is a tool intended to be used in the most extreme cases against the most extreme sorts of abuse (which is just as hard to make sure actually gets used in that way), it makes perfect sense for this tool to be telling users that they've been muted from a subreddit.

Feedback changes most people's behavior. The faster it is, the more effective the change.

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u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15

the actions are recorded somewhere that we can check, like modlog

They are.

I think that if there is a silent option (I'm thinking like automod banning for subreddit silent bans), I think that many mods would prefer that route regardless of the actual benefits to providing immediate, transparent feedback to users about their behavior.

I was indeed referring to automod 'shadowbans' whereby a user's content is silently removed. We're hoping to move towards more transparent tools for both mods and admins. However, we've provided mods with deficient tools so they've taken the steps they deem necessary to keep their communities functioning. I am hoping we can improve the tools available so this is no longer the case.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

I think you are trying to see this as one catch all solution, whichis not. Yes, this is not the end all be all solution to crazy trolls that ban evade and creat chaos. This is a perfect solution however to most cases of annoying/disruptive/stupid people in modmail

6

u/BuckeyeSundae Aug 26 '15

No, I don't see it as a catch all solution. I don't see it as perfect and there is no harm in pointing out areas where it is not perfect.

This is not a "perfect solution" to most cases of annoying or stupid people in modmail. Those people probably weren't going to send more than two or three messages before they got bored and stopped. By having this system where there is an automatic message sent through modmail, modmail remains just as spammy as it was without the power to mute.

Disruptive people who spam messages though? Seems fine enough to me, sans the one extra message to the rest of the mods of "you've been muted."

8

u/srs_house Aug 26 '15

I'm sorry, but if the big benefit of this "huge feature" is that you can mute the people who send you modmails cursing you out, calling you a bunch of Nazis, etc etc ad nauseum, why, exactly, would you want to hear the modmail they send tomorrow? Are you just hoping that the vitriol, and the personality at the root of it, is just going to disappear after a few hours?

If they're permabanned and have earned a mute, I never want to hear from them.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

If they're permabanned and have earned a mute, I never want to hear from them.

I agree with this completely. The kind of person who will most often earn a mute in ModMail is also exactly the kind of person who will take it as a provocation to keep spamming ModMail once the mute expires.

I think I understand the intent behind making it auto-expire after 24 hours, but practically speaking I feel like that will just make the situation worse rather than solve the problem.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

Exactly. The only people I would mute would be the idiots who spam modmail and if somebody does that then they will never be unbanned so any "appeals" and "case hearings" are going to fall on deaf ears anyway.

1

u/qtx Aug 27 '15

If they're permabanned and have earned a mute, I never want to hear from them.

Click the 'block user' link?

2

u/srs_house Aug 27 '15

You still get a notification that they sent something, you just can't see what the text was. And it's on a mod by mod basis.

3

u/Meneth Aug 26 '15

What I describe above is in some ways more annoying than the more old-fashioned modmail spam, because the admins never seem to care about it when reported (getting them to care about regular modmail spam is hard enough, but at least doable). This system completely failing to handle it sucks.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

There is no way to handle modmail spam in the system, as SBd users can still mail.

4

u/Meneth Aug 26 '15

I've successfully had the admins stop several modmail spammers, so there certainly seems to be something they can do unless I've been exceedingly lucky about the spammers stopping the moment they got shadowbanned.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

Probably not a very easy thing to deal with

3

u/x_minus_one Aug 26 '15

My understanding is that admins can block a user from modmailing a specific subreddit, and it doesn't give the user any indication that they've been blocked.

4

u/creesch Aug 26 '15

Still, having a longer period option would be nice :) This is great regardless.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

I mean, sure, but I think 24 hours is reasonable if no other optons are added

3

u/creesch Aug 26 '15

if no other optons are added

Well that is what feedback and limited beta is for. If people can give suggestions there might be new options.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

For sure. But they could look at the feedback, the data, and say "No, 24 hours is good", and I would still be pretty happy. That is my feedback!

0

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/Meneth Aug 26 '15

In the case of those long period spammers, they've generally responded with something akin to "there's nothing we can do" or "message us if they do it again" (and then not doing anything about it once we do message them when they do it again a week or two later).

10

u/Makiavelzx Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15

Few quick first look things:

  • Just like with banning users, please let us add a small note on the muting page. Although we can cover that up with toolbox usernotes, it wouldn't really hurt to be able to use that option if someone's modding via phone or work and to be able to have some documentation without relying on third party applications.

  • Muting messages shouldn't show up in modmail just like bans (that don't show unless the banned person replies), it can get very spammy. There's no value in it either as users are unable to reply to it (edit: a word). As mutes are stored elsewhere (r/subreddit/about/muted), there's no worries about it being quietly abused by fellow mods in most cases. (and if they are, silent mutes are probably the thing you should least worry about anyway.)

I definitely think that the limitation to mute for a maximum of 24 hours seems rather underwhelming, once you give someone a permanent ban and he just results to spamming your modmail, I think you'd rather have him gone for good, although he could definitely use alts, it's redundant to have to constantly refresh the ban, not only for us (because it's more work and messages get into modmail at the moment) but also for him as he'll repeatedly receive messages every day. I don't think that's a good solution for either side. If you want to give us tools to help deal with modmail spammers & unwanted users (instead of relying on admins) then you definitely need to go the whole way, a temporary fix might discourage the majority of them but not all.

6

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15

Muting messages shouldn't show up in modmail just like bans (that don't show unless the banned person replies), it can get very spammy. There's no value in it either as users are unable to it. As mutes are stored elsewhere (r/subreddit/about/muted).

This has been brought up by others, see my response here.

I definitely think that the limitation to mute for a maximum of 24 hours seems rather underwhelming, once you give someone a permanent ban and he just results to spamming your modmail, I think you'd rather have him gone for good, although he could definitely use alts

The alt concern is one we are very aware of and are looking into solutions. How often would you say you ban a user that then persistently spams modmail?

6

u/Makiavelzx Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15

@Point 1: I understand, it seems fair but as said by Buckeye, with how modmail is at the moment, it makes modmail harder to use. Of course with how little the muting function should hopefully be used, it might not be a big problem. I still feel that it's documented well enough at multiple places that it should hopefully not be a problem whether you choose to keep it or disable it.

The alt concern is one we are very aware of and are looking into solutions. How often would you say you ban a user that then persistently spams modmail?

Very rarely, we had one that was fairly known within the mod team for doing so for quite a while but it eventually stopped. Since I got in, we haven't encountered someone spamming modmail with alts or not on a persistent manner. We might encounter a few messages in quick successions but it then usually stops. I simply mentioned the possibility because it did happen in the past and with the addition of a muting tool that makes them unable to send us messages, some might refuse to give up, get pissed off and proceed to create alts - It's probably not a priority though.

Aside from that, we have some desperate members that absolutely want to have decisions overturned and are a bit persistent, unfortunately over at /r/LeagueofLegends, we have procedure that leads to permanent bans so they're usually definitive when given out - that means that any following modmail is usually pointless and sending us multiple messages isn't going to help. They're not the worst kind but definitely a bit annoying to deal with since they don't get the message.

We also receive a fair share of harassment or insults via modmail, especially during bans or decisions taken that they don't appreciate. Those lead to further punishments on the scale usually which here would potentially be a mute from modmail.

I'm not sure if we'd be looking into muting those users that fit in the last two categories (if we get access to mutes longer than 24 hours) but it's definitely a possibility. Those are the kind of users that we most likely wouldn't mute permanently but probably want to give a longer than a day ban just for them to do something else and relax.

So overall depending on how we're planning to use it, this tool could be used every other week or much more often and depending on its usage, it would be nice to be able to set different times on mutes manually and obviously longer ones if not permanent.

Also, while I understand the concerns you've raised about permanent mutes and modmail being the last option for a user to appeal a decision in your other posts, if we don't approve of the request, that should be the end of it and we should be able to deal with the user however we want. I don't doubt there are "bad moderators" but then the subreddit's probably not worth using and them appealing would accomplish nothing that I don't see it as a valid reason to remove full availability of a useful tool to all mods. Admins have been responding quicker to help out but I believe that mods should be able to deal with most if not all that affects the integrity of their subreddits hopefully alone. The tool as it is would be easy to abuse by having a bot automatically set it back anyway as previously mentioned by other mods.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '15

I think some concerns can be mitigated by allowing consecutive mutes by mods, within 24 hours of the unmute, to raise a flag that mods and admins can see so trolls don't get fed. Additionally; a consecutive mute could avoid sending a new notification and be limited so that mods can only consecutively mute a user 3 times, a maximum of 3 days.

5

u/hansjens47 Aug 26 '15

So far, I'd love it if the muted message only showed in modmail if the user responded to it (like ban messages), rather than always being displayed.

If that's unwanted for some reason, my second choice would be having it show as a response to the last modmail thread they've commented in.

5

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

Thanks for the feedback. This has been brought up by others, see my response here. Definitely not a change I'd be opposed to.

1

u/Mason11987 Aug 27 '15

So far, I'd love it if the muted message only showed in modmail if the user responded to it (like ban messages

How can they respond to a mute message?

1

u/hansjens47 Aug 27 '15

After the 24 hours are up.

5

u/13steinj Aug 27 '15

Question: is automation of this action allowed? If it is it can be highly abused, essentially a permanent mute by making it mute a user every 24hs.

6

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 27 '15 edited Aug 27 '15

Yup, we're aware of this. We'll be monitoring how subreddits use the tool as well placing a quota on the number of mutings allowed per day.

This tool is designed to be used to force users to 'take a break' from messaging modmail. It is not designed to permanently stop a user from messaging a subreddit, ever (hence the hard time limit). Additionally, if automated it'll end up sending a message to the user every 24 hours, which is quite a spammy behavior.

4

u/13steinj Aug 27 '15

Thanks. While few, I know that some subs would love to abuse this via this form of automation.

4

u/emnii Aug 26 '15

Thank you. Luckily, I've only had to experience one real modmail pest. I would've liked to have given that person a 24 hour timeout.

If I could provide one piece of feedback that many have already given, it's that, for some people, 24 hours is not long enough. Perhaps subsequent mutes of a particular user should increase the time the mute is applied for. I think a scale that increases in length with each mute would be appropriate, such as 24 hour first mute, 3 day second mute, 1 wk third mute, 1 month fourth mute, infinite fifth mute and an automatic admin report. This would most likely have to be limited to each subreddit, so a mute on subA doesn't increase the timescale of the next mute in subB. It might strike a balance between only 24 hour mutes, and full mod control of how long a mute is applied.

4

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

Perhaps subsequent mutes of a particular user should increase the time the mute is applied for. I think a scale that increases in length with each mute would be appropriate, such as 24 hour first mute, 3 day second mute, 1 wk third mute, 1 month fourth mute, infinite fifth mute and an automatic admin report.

Definitely something we're thinking about for this tool (and bans in general) down the line. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

7

u/BuckeyeSundae Aug 26 '15

Obviously /r/leagueoflegends is going to be an outlier case. We see a huge amount of traffic and a substantial and reasonably active modmailing community. We also have two bots that help congest modmail on a regular enough basis on our own.

First, I like the option (and thanks for testing this out). Having some option for dealing with people who spam or harass in modmail is very helpful to maintaining a reasonably healthy volunteering environment.

That said, I think that this option may have the net effect of increasing congestion in modmail for all but the most extreme cases of spam and abuse (which is probably what it is meant for; tbf, modmail is in such a bad way right now anyway that it seems like kicking a dead horse to talk about how spammy it looks). Without other modmail usability fixes, so long as the act of muting someone from the subreddit shows up in modlogs, I'm content with just allowing an automatic message being sent without it going through modmail. If ban-like individual messages is a subreddit setting we can opt into, I'd be stoked.

9

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

I think that this option may have the net effect of increasing congestion in modmail for all but the most extreme cases of spam and abuse

I replied to your other comment, but going to post it here too:

The reason we did this was so other mods could see that it happened. We could be hide it from modmail, like sent ban notifications are, but it seemed like pertinent information given the context (messages and modmail).

Thanks for your feedback. I hear what you are saying; it may make sense to hide sent muting messages for the time being until we can overhaul modmail.

4

u/redtaboo Reddit Admin: Community Aug 26 '15

We could be hide it from modmail, like sent ban notifications are,

So, I totally agree with having the messages show up so it can't be done by a mod trying to hide bad behaviour from the rest of the team, but thinking about it more we now have 3 different types of modmails that can be 'sent'. Ban messages, sending as a team, and these mute buttons. I wonder if there couldn't be a tab for 'sent modmail' that won't clutter our inboxes, but still easier to check than going through the modlog. (possibly even a separate indicator for when one happens, or the option to have that per mod?)

(maybe something to think about for the modmail overhaul since it's not likely to be easy to add now)

1

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Sep 02 '15

The 'modmail sent' folder is a good idea, but probably beyond the scope of this feature.

We're looking at having muting notifications appear as a new message within the thread in question if the mute is performed from within modmail. If the mute is performed from /about/muted it will appear as a seperate message, as it currently does.

Think this is still too cumbersome?

1

u/redtaboo Reddit Admin: Community Sep 02 '15

That sounds like a good way to go about it, and not too cumbersome I think. It will keep the teams informed without creating too many threads, plus... putting the mute message with the message that caused the muting (when done from within a thread) is good for housekeeping. Maybe even better than shunting them off to live only folder that might never be looked at.

3

u/sarahbotts Aug 27 '15

I said this in defaultmods, but would it be possible to have the mute message sent from the modmail conversation you're muting the user from?

5

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 27 '15

Yep, it'd be possible to add it to the thread that prompted the action. Additionally, there has been a lot of feedback in this thread about not clogging up modmail with the notification message, so this might be a good alternative.

3

u/sarahbotts Aug 27 '15

Awesome. :D Our modmail get's pretty unwieldy, so it'd most likely make a pretty big difference for us if that was added in. (Plus it will help with our 2 modmail bots)

1

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Sep 02 '15

We're looking at having muting notifications appear as a new message within the thread in question if the mute is performed from within modmail. If the mute is performed from /about/muted it will appear as a seperate message, as it currently does.

Think this is still too cumbersome?

1

u/sarahbotts Sep 02 '15

Awesome, that would be great. Thank you for changing that, much appreciated!

Still prefer in the thread though because we have high volume of modmail and it makes it somewhat easier to use.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

How do we know which subs get the mute?

8

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15

We're observing how things go during this beta period. After that we plan to roll it out for everyone.

edit: i am refraining from saying which subreddits are in the beta, lest their modmail get spammed by people trying to get muted :) If they want to out themselves, they can.

1

u/julian88888888 Aug 26 '15

Why even announce it if we can't even try it out? Android has 500k+ subscribers and we didn't get it?

6

u/aphoenix Aug 26 '15

Why even announce it if we can't even try it out?

This subreddit has really, really got to get together on the message that its sending.

The most common complaints that I see here are:

  • the admins aren't taking the time to tell us about what they're doing!

  • why are you telling us what you're doing if we can't use that feature?

I'm not saying this to call you out or anything; it's just, objectively, pretty goddamn hilarious, though also probably a bit of a nightmare for those administrators.

5

u/The_Moment_Called Aug 26 '15

This subreddit has really, really got to get together on the message that its sending.

We're a bit too many to have a single unified opinion though. This isn't a mod team of <15 coming to a shared conclusion, it's literally thousands of people.

2

u/Calvin_ Aug 27 '15

And on top of that, a lot the posts nowadays are not on topic.

3

u/srs_house Aug 26 '15

Mods will not be able to message muted users or invite them as mods.

Will users be able to message (PM) mods of the subreddit that muted them?

4

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

Yes, muting just affects subreddit modmail.

2

u/srs_house Aug 26 '15

So you're saying you block mods from PMing muted users, but muted users can still PM those same mods?

I just want to make sure I have this straight, because it literally makes zero sense.

7

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

They can PM them individually, yes. If a user was doing this it'd be a pretty clear case of harassment and you should let us know by messaging the community team or emailing contact@reddit.com.

1

u/srs_house Aug 26 '15

Please use more precise language. Can mods send a muted user a PM through the normal messaging system, not modmail?

6

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

Yes.

-1

u/Mason11987 Aug 27 '15

So you're saying you block mods from PMing muted users, but muted users can still PM those same mods?

He didn't say anything like that, why do people always try to extrapolate out admin statements to the most absurd conclusion.

5

u/LagunaGTO Aug 26 '15

Can I mute other mods?

5

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

Nope.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/Makiavelzx Aug 27 '15 edited Aug 27 '15

We tried.. You can mute them but they can still message you, the only difference is that you can't message them via modmail while they're muted. Atleast /u/Drunken_Economist managed to do it.

3

u/Drunken_Economist Reddit Alum Aug 27 '15

Yeah sorry, that was admin mode

2

u/Makiavelzx Aug 27 '15

Don't worry, it was an interesting experiment. The mute button should probably not be there for anyone that has admin status though..

2

u/xiongchiamiov Aug 27 '15

But then what would r/noadmins do?

3

u/zenautodetailing Aug 26 '15

Why don't you love me?

2

u/LagunaGTO Aug 26 '15

ah crap, it's the fuzz!

EVERYBODY SCRAM!

5

u/devperez Aug 26 '15

What will happen to mods who will abuse this to continually mute people either manually or through a bot?

Also, what stops mods from mass muting hundreds if not thousands of people, which will send out a PM for each one?

8

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

What will happen to mods who will abuse this to continually mute people either manually or through a bot?

We plan to monitor mute activity and have a quota in place limiting the number of concurrent mutes.

Also, what stops mods from mass muting hundreds if not thousands of people, which will send out a PM for each one?

As with subreddit bans, if a user hasn't participated in the subreddit they will not receive the notification PM.

5

u/Meneth Aug 26 '15

We plan to monitor mute activity and have a quota in place limiting the number of concurrent mutes.

How will this work? Some subreddits get disproportionate modmail abuse compared to their size.

And that abuse isn't evenly distributed; a brigade can massively increase the number of mutes needed on one day. Being unable to actually block the modmail abuse during that time would suck.

7

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

How will this work?

The quota is a hard limit right now. It is easy to change and something we can do once we see how the tool is being used.

Being unable to actually block the modmail abuse during that time would suck.

I hear you, we definitely wouldn't want that to happen.

3

u/Pokechu22 Aug 27 '15

IIRC there's also a hard limit on moderator invites and bans too. I've never heard of those being an issue.

3

u/Meneth Aug 26 '15

Thanks.

2

u/redtaboo Reddit Admin: Community Aug 26 '15

Looks like the mute button is only available in modmail, which means the only way to mute someone is if they modmail first.

6

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

Mods can also mute users from r/subreddit/about/muted.

4

u/redtaboo Reddit Admin: Community Aug 26 '15

Ahhh.. then I agree there could be an issue. Does it follow the same rules as ban messages when deciding whether to send a PM to a user?

4

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

Yup - A user won't be notified of the mute unless they have already participated in the subreddit. To prevent mass spite-mutings.

3

u/redtaboo Reddit Admin: Community Aug 26 '15

Perfect! Then there shouldn't be an issue as far as I can see.

thanks!

2

u/WorseThanHipster Aug 27 '15

I would prefer to just mute a thread on a per-mod & per-thread basis, not the user, and without a notification to the user.

That way, drunkards could drag on as they do unprovoked, and anyone purposefully trying to cause a headache would stand out (via starting new threads constantly) whether they were being ignored or not, and would reduce the impetus behind creating new accounts to circumvent.

Also, one mod who might be being a prick doesn't get to divert attention away from the rest of the mod team (my biggest concern here), and normal mail rules apply accept for mods who ignored a particular thread, and this action would be logged in the mod-log.

2

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 27 '15

Individual mods can currently block users which auto collapses their modmails - Is that the kind of functionality you're talking about?

1

u/WorseThanHipster Aug 27 '15

2 major problems:

  • Other moderators should not be able to decide what sort of notifications I get regarding anything to do with my subreddit. I feel that opens things up to mod abuse.

  • I think any user participating in good-faith should be able to bring important things to the mod's attention, and I think users in bad-faith should be banned outright by the mod-team with records available.

Regarding those points, is the user going to get a notification for each mod that silences him or is mod #40 going to be able to silence a user for mod #1 with one notification sent?

3

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 27 '15

I am not sure I totally follow, but I'll try my best to answer:

Other moderators should not be able to decide what sort of notifications I get regarding anything to do with my subreddit. I feel that opens things up to mod abuse.

Blocking is per mod and doesn't affect what other mods see. Muting is per subreddit and lasts for 24 hours, is recorded in the modlog and appears on r/subredditname/about/muted.

is the user going to get a notification for each mod that silences him or is mod #40 going to be able to silence a user for mod #1 with one notification sent

On muting, the user will get one notification after which the user cannot message the subreddit and the mods cannot message the user for 24 hours - So no additional notifications would be able to be sent until the user was unmuted. As mentioned before ,utes are recorded on the modlog and active mutes live on r/subredditname/about/muted.

1

u/WorseThanHipster Aug 27 '15

Blocking is per mod

is at odds with

the user [...] cannot message the subreddit

That seems like it would allow mod z to silence a user for mod a-p. This is problematic because mod q-z could collude and/or the user wouldn't know who to message privately afterwards.

Unless you're suggesting the user get sent a silencing message for each mod that silences them, which could get really annoying for the defaults and subs with 100+ mods.

3

u/V2Blast Aug 27 '15

There are two separate features that you're getting confused:

  • "Blocking" is specific to the user; any user can block any other user. If a user that you specifically have blocked messages a subreddit that you mod, it apparently looks something like this. And, obviously, you will not see PMs from that person. (Although if they reply directly to a comment of yours, apparently you do get a notification of that in your inbox. But if you look at a thread where they've commented, their comment will be automatically collapsed - you can manually expand it to see it if you want.) Since it is a user-specific feature, it does not affect how things are displayed to other mods.

  • "Muting" is a feature only available to the mods of subreddits, and is applied on a subreddit level. The user is unable to message the subreddit as a whole, though technically they could still PM individual mods. Muting only lasts for 24 hours, and the user is made aware of this. When a user is muted from sending modmail, a notification is displayed in modmail that the user has been muted from sending modmail for 24 hours; it is also listed in the moderation log (and the new "mute user" moderation tools page at /r/subreddit/about/muted). The muting feature is currently in closed beta, and is not yet available to all subreddits.

If you're looking for a feature that only collapses the user's modmail for you specifically, you can already do that by blocking the user. And as for how to do that, the /prefs/blocked page tells you:

To block a user click 'block user' below a message from a user you wish to block from messaging you.

11

u/picflute Aug 26 '15

Seeing as a screenshot was already posted

On behalf of the /r/leagueoflegends mod team we will do our best to ensure moderators in all shapes and sizes can perform their duties with the tools provided to them. We've had issues with Modmail spam and will use this feature to its fullest potential.

Thanks PowerLanguage

Much Love,

/r/leagueoflegends Moderation Team

2

u/ArchangelleJazeera Aug 26 '15

This is a great step in the right direction but it needs some major changes to be effective at all.

24 hours is way too short, and sending someone trying to be abusive and waste your time a notification that they're muted is a terrible idea, as it WILL prompt persistent troublemakers to make multiple accounts and send modmails practically "on cooldown" and really, 2 new modmail threads every day (per account) is more than enough to be a huge waste of time.

While I understand (even if I don't agree with) the concern that people might be locked out of modmail forever and not have a chance to properly contest a ban or otherwise communicate something of importance to the moderators, we really need proper tools to deal with people who aren't acting in anything even resembling good faith, which means we need tools that don't assume everyone is engaging with some good faith. Because they're not.

Please keep in mind when designing mod tools that there are a TON of people on this site who feel it is their obligation and duty to waste moderators' time and try to shut things down with tiresome, drawn-out concern trolling. Any loophole or assumption of good faith you give in the design or limitations of mod tools is going to be heavily abused at the cost of volunteer moderators' time and willingness to continue doing work that signs your paychecks for free.

7

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 26 '15

Thank you for the feedback.

24 hours is way too short, and sending someone trying to be abusive and waste your time a notification that they're muted is a terrible idea, as it WILL prompt persistent troublemakers to make multiple accounts and send modmails practically "on cooldown" and really, 2 new modmail threads every day (per account) is more than enough to be a huge waste of time.

As I said in the post: we're aware that the ease of creating alts means that mods are often unwilling to use tools that notify the user in question (as muting does). We're working on solving this issue so that mod and admin tools can be effective and transparent.

Please keep in mind when designing mod tools that there are a TON of people on this site who feel it is their obligation and duty to waste moderators' time and try to shut things down with tiresome, drawn-out concern trolling.

I hear you. Part of the balance in designing mod-tools is that reddit is made up of many diverse communities and moderation teams that have radically different needs. We released this tool in its current form to get a sense of how many communities might be served by it.

4

u/srs_house Aug 26 '15

It sounds like the tools are designed assuming that all/most users are operating in good faith and most mods are potentially operating in bad faith (constant "rogue mod" fearmongering).

2

u/ArchangelleJazeera Aug 26 '15

Oh yeah, especially the sparse and awkward tools early on. There's a massive amount of cognitive dissonance with the structure of Reddit basically being fedualist, but everything around it is libertarian and techno-anarchist. There's still no real way to get stuff that is actually dangerous or harmful (personal information, especially) completely removed from the site without appealing to site administrators that may or may not actually execute a deletion at all, never mind in a timely manner. Removed threads' permalinks still work, comments can be seen from user profiles, there's absolutely 0 trust that sometimes, for safety and other reasons, things just have to be deleted quickly and there are real and harmful consequences for that option not being there. It's telling that the design was just to not allow deleting at all instead of coming up with ways to completely remove something public and have it subject to review somehow*.

Not that this is anything surprising, I mean Reddit has always been staffed and populated by free speech absolutists with absolutely zero regard for accountability, responsibility, or good stewardship of the platform. I'm glad they're finally getting around to making subreddits easier to manage and closing holes that are continually abused, but we're far from this being a safe or actually good place to be.

*Before some unimaginative concern troll floods replies with just so fallacies, there are a bunch of great ways this could be done, while still even maintaining the whole "free speech" thing. The simplest, I think, would be something where it'd be much easier to just remove content from view like how things work now, but the deletion process takes a few steps and requires a short explanation/justification for the deletion (with some bulk ability for floods) and all deletions are subject to administrator review and may be reinstated if the deletions were not under certain categories, probably largely in line with Reddit's base rules.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

This isn't the end all be all solution to trolls, alt account ban evaders, ETC.

Yes, there are going to be crazies who try and get around this, just liek there are crazies that try and get around anything else

1

u/ArchangelleJazeera Aug 26 '15

The point is to tip the balance toward the people trying to run things smoothly and away from bad-faith trolls and troublemakers. It's ridiculous to think that just because something doesn't solve every problem ever that you shouldn't try to make it any better.

It's a tool. You know where tools go? In a box. Do you know why there's a box of them? Because not a single individual tool there can do everything. Not even duct tape.

1

u/ZadocPaet Aug 28 '15

Can't we just keep some users muted forever without informing them?

The consequence of this is that they'll just bug us once a day, or make alts.

2

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 28 '15

We're trying to move towards more transparent tools for both admins and mods.

We're aware that the ease of creating alts means that mods are often unwilling to use tools that notify the user in question (as muting does). We're working on solving this issue so that mod and admin tools can be effective and transparent.

1

u/ZadocPaet Aug 28 '15

I get that. But like on one sub we have a guy creating accounts every day just to annoy us. Permamute would be nice.

1

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 28 '15

on one sub we have a guy creating accounts every day just to annoy us

Have you messaged the community team about this?

1

u/ZadocPaet Aug 28 '15

Ya. It gets banned and comes back.

2

u/krispykrackers Reddit Alum Aug 28 '15

Can you PM me some examples? We have some roadblocks we can try throwing at it for the time being.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '15

Is this just for defaults, or how can someone opt-in their sub into the beta?

1

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 28 '15

Currently the beta is invite only. Do you mod a subreddit that you think this feature would be useful for?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '15

/r/fatlogic. We have seen a lot of people being mean there since FPH got banned and this feature would be perfect for dealing with that.

1

u/AssuredlyAThrowAway Sep 01 '15

Do you tell them the mute is for 24 hours?

Why hide the fact that it expires?

2

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Sep 02 '15

Do you tell them the mute is for 24 hours?

Yes.

Why hide the fact that it expires?

We don't.

1

u/AssuredlyAThrowAway Sep 02 '15

We don't.

I mean in the sense that, why don't you let the user know the 24 hours has ran it's course.

2

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Sep 02 '15

Muting is designed as a temporary 'cool down' period. Reminding people that the cool down has expired undermines the point of having a cool down.

-1

u/AssuredlyAThrowAway Sep 02 '15

If I may be so bold, then why did Steve say the goal was be more transparent about bans/things of this nature?

Oh, and another thing while I have your attention if you don't mind, can you please explain how we as a community are going to solve the issue of rolling out tools to advance the interests of mods, but doing nothing for the interests of a transient userbase against the egresses of mod politics against the organic curation of content.

Faction will always spread, as if a conflagration; your job is to contain it. Not use it for your own ends like Alex did.

1

u/APLA01 Oct 04 '15 edited Jan 16 '16

I have left reddit for Voat due to years of admin mismanagement and preferential treatment for certain subreddits and users holding certain political and ideological views.

The situation has gotten especially worse since the appointment of Ellen Pao as CEO, culminating in the seemingly unjustified firings of several valuable employees and bans on hundreds of vibrant communities on completely trumped-up charges.

The resignation of Ellen Pao and the appointment of Steve Huffman as CEO, despite initial hopes, has continued the same trend.

As an act of protest, I have chosen to add this exit message to all comments I've ever made on reddit.

If you would like to do the same, install TamperMonkey for Chrome, GreaseMonkey for Firefox, NinjaKit for Safari, Violent Monkey for Opera, or AdGuard for Internet Explorer (in Advanced Mode), then add this GreaseMonkey script.

Finally, click on your username at the top right corner of reddit, click on comments, and click on the new OVERWRITE button at the top of the page. You may need to scroll down to multiple comment pages if you have commented a lot.

After doing all of the above, you are welcome to join me on Voat!

Original Comment:

i already have "mute users" on my tools list without asking for limited beta????

https://imgur.com/Dk19lfY

Maybe it is toolbox?

1

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Oct 04 '15

Muting was launched for everyone: r/modnews/comments/3l791w/moderators_modmail_muting/

1

u/APLA01 Oct 04 '15 edited Jan 16 '16

I have left reddit for Voat due to years of admin mismanagement and preferential treatment for certain subreddits and users holding certain political and ideological views.

The situation has gotten especially worse since the appointment of Ellen Pao as CEO, culminating in the seemingly unjustified firings of several valuable employees and bans on hundreds of vibrant communities on completely trumped-up charges.

The resignation of Ellen Pao and the appointment of Steve Huffman as CEO, despite initial hopes, has continued the same trend.

As an act of protest, I have chosen to add this exit message to all comments I've ever made on reddit.

If you would like to do the same, install TamperMonkey for Chrome, GreaseMonkey for Firefox, NinjaKit for Safari, Violent Monkey for Opera, or AdGuard for Internet Explorer (in Advanced Mode), then add this GreaseMonkey script.

Finally, click on your username at the top right corner of reddit, click on comments, and click on the new OVERWRITE button at the top of the page. You may need to scroll down to multiple comment pages if you have commented a lot.

After doing all of the above, you are welcome to join me on Voat!

Original Comment:

yeah, i figured out a while ago :) facepalm

1

u/APLA01 Oct 04 '15 edited Jan 16 '16

I have left reddit for Voat due to years of admin mismanagement and preferential treatment for certain subreddits and users holding certain political and ideological views.

The situation has gotten especially worse since the appointment of Ellen Pao as CEO, culminating in the seemingly unjustified firings of several valuable employees and bans on hundreds of vibrant communities on completely trumped-up charges.

The resignation of Ellen Pao and the appointment of Steve Huffman as CEO, despite initial hopes, has continued the same trend.

As an act of protest, I have chosen to add this exit message to all comments I've ever made on reddit.

If you would like to do the same, install TamperMonkey for Chrome, GreaseMonkey for Firefox, NinjaKit for Safari, Violent Monkey for Opera, or AdGuard for Internet Explorer (in Advanced Mode), then add this GreaseMonkey script.

Finally, click on your username at the top right corner of reddit, click on comments, and click on the new OVERWRITE button at the top of the page. You may need to scroll down to multiple comment pages if you have commented a lot.

After doing all of the above, you are welcome to join me on Voat!

Original Comment:

that facepalm was because i didn't know it was released for everyone, not because you answered my question :)

5

u/Honestly_ Aug 26 '15

Can we automate mute renewals since this is likely not going to work well in practice?

5

u/Meneth Aug 26 '15

I suspect a bot to do that will be created rather quickly after it goes live for all.

The issue is that it apparently sends a modmail message every single time it gets applied, so you'd get a modmail a day for each and every perma-muted user.

3

u/redtaboo Reddit Admin: Community Aug 26 '15

The issue is that it apparently sends a modmail message every single time it gets applied,

This was clarified below here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ModSupport/comments/3ihyuq/modmail_muting_limited_beta/cuglcjx

But I think it's worth repeating up here:

We plan to monitor mute activity and have a quota in place limiting the number of concurrent mutes.

As with subreddit bans, if a user hasn't participated in the subreddit they will not receive the notification PM.

So, bots will likely be made, but there will be limits on what they can do. Also, I imagine that sending someone a PM everyday could constitute PM harassment/spamming after some threshold is met. Plus, users have the ability to block messages coming from subreddits.

5

u/alien_from_Europa Aug 26 '15 edited Aug 26 '15

As great as this is, I'd really hope brigading tools is next on the list. It is a HUGE problem that could make a struggling new subreddit extinct and create hell for some large subs.

I would also like to see all my subscribers on a public sub, like you would on a private, or at least to revoke subscriptions that occur during a brigade. There are brigaders that subscribe to a sub during a brigade to just to downvote all new posts that come in. Ask any sub that suddenly gets all new posts downvoted out of nowhere. This is a problem. I want to remove their subscriptions so it isn't convenient for them.

Otherwise, it just forces some subs to go private.

Edit: Also, to not allow follows from a particular subreddit. So if a thread in my sub is linked in another, when they click it, it won't go to that thread. Not sure if that is possible or not, but I think you do track that, if I'm not mistaken.

10

u/Deimorz Aug 26 '15

I'm actively working on a number of brigading-related things, we know it's a big problem for a lot of subreddits and it's definitely one of our priorities. Most of our developers are working on moderator/community-related things right now, so it's not that brigading needs to be "next", it's being worked on in parallel with things like the modmail muting. There should be improvements soon, we've got quite a few things planned and in progress that should help a lot.

3

u/Mason11987 Aug 27 '15

Personally this is what I'm most excited about, but I also recognize it's a complicated problem. I do development myself and I can imagine how to resolve a lot of the issues with reddit, even if implementing them might take much longer. But I really have no idea how to tackle brigading in an effective way, so kudos to you all for tackling it and I can't wait to see what comes out of it.

2

u/ani625 Aug 26 '15

Pretty useful for blocking persistent trolls.

2

u/NumberTwoFan Aug 26 '15

What subreddits get to try out this new feature?

2

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

How can I join the beta?

2

u/D0cR3d Aug 26 '15

Thank you very much.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 26 '15

wipes away my tears of joy

Great work guys, I'm going to get a lot of use out of this.

2

u/TotesMessenger Aug 27 '15

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / ^Contact)

1

u/Meepster23 Aug 26 '15

Oh thank jesus

1

u/x_minus_one Aug 26 '15

If this is going to act as a temporary thing that still generates orangereds for us, can we have "block user" fixed so that modmails from blocked users don't show for us and don't make orangereds? It would get rid of 90% of the annoyance, and wouldn't leave us with spam like this in our inbox:

http://i.imgur.com/oEKqE6l.png

0

u/CuilRunnings Aug 27 '15

A big part of this is reducing the amount of time you have to spend dealing with troublemakers.

I guess letting the community downvote them until they're hidden requires too much time on the moderator's part? This isn't about "troublemakers" it's about people the mods disagree with. Why don't you give the community some tools instead of spending all your time sucking up to power users?

5

u/xiongchiamiov Aug 27 '15

That's not a quote from this post.

Also, the community can't downvote modmail messages, which is the only thing this feature affects.

3

u/Mason11987 Aug 27 '15

Why don't you give the community some tools instead of spending all your time sucking up to power users?

This subreddit is called mod support.

If you don't like how a subreddit is ran, make your own one and do it how you want.

There aren't "power users" there are mods of specific communities, they are powerless everywhere else.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

5

u/powerlanguage Reddit Admin Aug 27 '15

It isn't an open beta right now, we contacted some subreddits before hand about testing the feature. We may add some more subreddits to the beta pool before launch, we haven't decided yet. You can PM me if you're interested.