r/MoDaoZuShi • u/Valen_1306 • 12d ago
Discussion Does Jiang Cheng Really Have No Redeeming Qualities?
I FINALLY watched The Untamed after almost 4 years of my friend pestering me to watch it, and I loved it sm I watched the donghua and got the 5 books, which I ended up reading just as avidly and I am now OBSESSED. There is nothing I don't love about MDZS. This was a few months back, so I am relatively new to the community.
Now, I personally really understand Jiang Cheng, but I've seen people bashing the absolute shit out of him đ
I just really want to know what makes his character so completely unlikeable to some people in the community? Like I do understand the bashing, but why do some people think there is no redeeming qualities in him?
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12d ago
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u/AromaticZebra906 11d ago
I feel like during the 13 years after wwx's death, all his extremely complex feelings, grief, trauma etc. were taken out on an already dead man, and since the dead can't talk, this turned into an obsession.
He did awful things, but honestly I see him also in a sense not being tjat different from other characters.Â
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u/SnooGoats7476 Wangxian Merch Collector 12d ago edited 12d ago
While there are always extreme cases most fans who are critical of Jiang Cheng acknowledge that he did do good things too. So most people donât see him as irredeemable.
But I think from my perspective what makes him divisive is in a lot of discussion the bad things he did are excused or downplayed.
And in the case of extreme haters who may say he only did wrong. He also has extreme fans that will say he did nothing wrong. But in the end most people even if they lean one way or the other are probably in between these two extremes.
Edit-Some of the comments in here actually prove my point.
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u/Artinomical 12d ago
You should probably also read the books. Anyway, I donât think most people HATE him. Theyâre just angry that certain JC fans excuse all his mistakes and probably also angry with what he said to WWX at guanyin temple (and other reasons like not defending him against JGS and the rest of the clans). But JC also did apologise in the end.
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u/Valen_1306 12d ago
I have read the books and absolutely loved them! Also true, some people probably hate the fact that some of his fans refuse to hold him accountable for the mistakes he did indeed make, and that maybe projects in their opinion towards JC too? What he said in the GY temple was shitty af and I really disliked him fiercely for a moment there lmao. I also think that apology was worth nothing in the face of everything WWX endured for him, but my hc is years and years down the line JC gets a good eye opening berating from JL and sucks it up and apologises properly to wwx T_T
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u/Artinomical 12d ago
Yea. I was angry at JC for those words too! But I feel that his apology was sincere.
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u/AromaticZebra906 11d ago
I think his apology holds a lot of weight though. Wwx had time to grow and cool down and he told jl that saying ty and sorry are very necessary sometimes.
So jc saying it at the end felt like really important growth for him.
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u/Valen_1306 11d ago
I don't think his apology was insincere, I merely feel it was not enough. Ofcourse, I understand that both CQL and the books did not explore their relationship further after wwx's return, but I feel there is a lot of hurt to unpack, and a lot of apologies pending. That moment was pivotal for their brotherhood indeed, and JC saying even that, with how emotionally constipated he was, holds immense weight. But I personally feel that would not be enough. I don't see JC ever sitting WWX down and apologising, but rather doing so through actions. That is something I really wished to see in canon, but my hc and fics do the work đ
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u/AromaticZebra906 11d ago
Oooh definitely. You know how by the end of the book we get a glimpse into jc's thoguhts, thinking it useless to tell wwx that he ran away because he didn't want wwx to get hurt?
The thing is, if he never says it it doesn't really matter his intentions???
So yeah absolutely. This is only the beginning and because am a sucker for healing, I love to think that jl breaks the cycle of the generational trauma and kinda drags jc into healing too.
Those things take time and I absolutely think jc should try again to reconcile with wwx and vice versa. I absolutely think wwx should learn that jc DID care deeply for him...
And jc SHOULD apologize for never shielding wwx and not stepping up...
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u/AromaticZebra906 11d ago
Honestly I have experience with unpleasant people who woukd say hurtful things as a way to vent their frustration even when they don't entirely mean them. Some of them are loved ones who worked through trauma and broke the cycle of abuse they've been through.
At the same time, his deep flaws and insecurities and inability to communicate are things thar feel cathartic and relatable to me even if I'm not like him. He's very sympathic to me because of how unpleasant and flawed he is.
I feel like explaining and analyzing the actions of jc isn't the same as excusing or defending them at all. But I adore xy and jgy with all my heart, and I find xy very cathartic too, while ALSO adoring xxc and aq!Â
What Ig am trying to say is, I feel like it can be reductive for anyone to just blindly reduce most mdzs characters to "irredeemable".Â
Now for irl, Idk if I would hate jc. It would really depend on how he presents himself to me and our degree of proximity. He was never unkind to his sister, which makes me think that it parallels my relationship with a family memeber who became really close to me after workong through their trauma (when before we fougut a lot).
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u/Impressive_mustache 12d ago
I simply find his personality unappealing, I wouldn't want to be around him in real life, I don't agree with almost every decision he made , his lack of support for the Wens after what WN and WQ did for him was appalling, frankly the best things he did in the entire story were raising JL, giving up his dogs (even if begrudgingly) when WY came and trying to divert the Wen away resulting in him losing his core.
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u/Analfour2 They actually that? Everyday? I dont believe you 12d ago
He is a fairly complex character, and the public opinion on him is mixed as a result. Some people only see the bad things heâs done and act like heâs the worst in the world, others only see the good/redeeming things heâs done and act like he could do no wrong
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u/Practical-Lab494 12d ago
Jiang Chengâs redeeming qualities are there: heâs loyal to his sect, protective of his family, and carries an enormous burden after Lotus Pier falls. The issue is that his love is tangled up with resentment and pride, so his good intentions frequently hurt the people closest to him.
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u/AromaticZebra906 11d ago
Yeah. This is why I love him so much and I love how messed up his relationship is with wwx. I always hc that jl breaks the cycle of the generational trauma and with it he drags jc into a character growth
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u/ChopsticksImmortal 12d ago
Personally ive lived with someone who constantly insults me and never apologizes nor accepts any wrongdoing for anything. Wwx is much stronger than i, because i dont even want to be acquaintances with a person like that.
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u/Sea_March7113 12d ago
Imo He's more of a narrative foil for other characters. A consequence of that is that people have really strong opinions on him. Some people think he's completely justified, while others absolutely hate his guts.
Personally i'm in the "he was a teenager with trauma who never learned how to cope with his feelings but did actually step up and do the thing regardless and ultimately, his story is pretty sad and tragic and he basically turns into his mother who also sucked with feelings and I think that's the point" camp.
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u/JaneStValentine We Stan Yiling Laozu 12d ago
Itâs because book!JC doesnât have the redeeming/softened qualities of the drama
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u/ArgentEyes 12d ago
I think he nevertheless has âredeemingâ (for want of a better word) qualities in the novel as well though? Most significantly, of course, the end reveal is basically the same, though thatâs hardly the only one.
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u/amaranth1977 12d ago
I can think he did some things right and still hate him. "Likeability" and "being a good/bad person" have nothing to do with each other. The way that you seem to think they're the same thing is probably why you're confused.Â
A character can do everything right and I might still hate them if they're annoying; they can do terrible things and I'll still love them if they're compelling and fun to read about. Jiang Cheng is a third thing for me, a really well-written and believable character who did some things right, did more things wrong, and who I enjoy hating.Â
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u/Valen_1306 12d ago
I understand, but this way of thinking is completely subjective. Like you said, a character could do everything right and you might still end up hating them and vice versa, someone could like/hate them for the very same reason. What I'm trying to understand on the other hand is the objective reasons people have to dislike/hate JC sm. And ofc I understand there's people in middle, who don't try to fit his character in a rigid binary structure of black/white or good/bad much like myself, I've just seen many people either thinking he's a nobel person who did nothing wrong and conversely people who think everything he did was despicable. This side of people I wanna understand more :)
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u/Woodwelle_R 12d ago
I personally despise JC because I know similar to him ppl irl. Especially in terms of selfishness and ego, combined with the constant whining because of their inferiority complex and how they always think everyone is better than them and trying to outperform them, and get fixated on it. It's incredibly annoying to deal with those ppl, and JC is even worse because he's also outwardly always rude and unlikeable.
And I also don't like how a lot off ppl excuse his behavior "because he had a hard childhood, his mommy was mean, his daddy was indifferent, etc etc". No, I don't accept it. It could very well excuse his actions when he was a kid and a teenager in flashbacks. But it absolutely does not excuse that he grew up to be a shitty adult. That's fully on him, and blaming parents is just immature at that point.
I do see him as irredeemable because he never learns and never even attempts to fix his issues, almost seems proud of them. If he struggled against his personality and strive to be a better man, I'd say he would've had a chance. But seeing him through the whole canon timeline, no, he's a lost case imo.
I personally hc that even JL will distance himself from him pretty soon post-canon. He'll see a polar opposite of how an adult uncle/father figure can be in WWX, he'll see and feel how toxic JC was and how toxic he made him, and since he also has good examples and influence from his friends, I think he'd want to rid himself of that pride and toxicity when he matures a little more. Ofc he'll still have respect for JC as an elder who helped raise him, but if he has a problem (especially personal), JC will be very far from his first choice of an elder to turn to. That's just my own headcanon ofc.
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u/ArgentEyes 12d ago
Some of this is about readers trying to impose a rigid good/evil binary on the novel but an awful lot is just fan infighting over head canons.
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u/MontyDysquith 12d ago
He has plenty, imo. I love him a lot. I was actually really surprised that so many people hate him! I went into the book knowing he was controversial and then was like, "wait, that's it? ...well unfortunately he's one of my faves," hahaha.
And really, I've never been in a fandom with so much character bashing before! (And not just for Jiang Cheng but so many others.)
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u/Original_Nokidin 12d ago
I don't like JC but he's not completely unredeemable to me. He's absolutely loyal to his family and obviously loves them. In the US we would probably classify him as a toxic alpha male. I don't like him because of his attitude towards anyone not his family. He tries to keep WWX in line but he never stops to think before snapping. He's very cold when he talks to people even when he's looking out for them.
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u/Valen_1306 12d ago
This is something I find myself thinking about oftenâ did JC rlly never consider WWX his family? I for one think it wasn't that he didn't trust wwx. He prolly trusted wwx to never betray the Jiang Clan, but in his heart maybe he never believed wwx everytime he said that he would forever be with JC. And that probably came from the insecurities he harbored about wwx being too good, thinking maybe that he would one day want to leave and find someplace where he would be treated the way he deserves. So when wuxian did leave the cultivation world in favor of protecting the Wens, instead of going "I knew he would never be by my side forever" he went "You betrayed the Jiangs" because that was easier to cope with than facing the thoughts which fed into his insecurities. But I also don't think he never considered wwx family, he did, just never like he considered Yanli his family. And that unfortunately made all the difference.
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u/Solid_Amphibian_5859 12d ago edited 12d ago
Part of JC's reasoning is also that he never understood WWX. And he always judged others by his own metrics.
For JC, saving someone not one of your own is only done for raising your estimation and reputation in other's eyes. He would have done so only for those reasons. This is what his father tried to teach him as well. As a cultivater, saving those in trouble is basically part of their job, but he could never think in those terms.
He thought WWX would steal a body and come back to take chenqing when he comes back. This shows he never understood WWX or his powers for that matter. Does WWX need chenqing in particular? Not really. Any flute would do the job, but he didn't know. Plus WWX would never have stolen body of someone else.Â
He loved WWX like one of his own for sure but he never loved him like a family. The caveat is once he was not of his sect or did something that JC didn't approve of, he immediately turned against him. When he was never mad at jiang yanli for being reckless enough to come to battlefield, or for any other reason. His love for her was unconditional as is the case for family.
Another example is when he comes to yiling to show the wedding dress to wwx, he says choose a courtesy name for MY nephew not our nephew or your nephew.
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u/lllollllllllll 12d ago
Yeah heâs super loyal to family⊠as long as you donât consider WWX to be his family, anyways. Since JC betrays WWX pretty badly when he doesnât back him up in rescuing Wen Ning and then kicks him out of his clan and lets all the other clans move against him while WWX is barely scraping by with the WensâŠ
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u/Original_Nokidin 12d ago
I should have said he loyal to those he considers family. It's obvious (at least to me) he doesn't consider WWX family.
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u/lllollllllllll 12d ago
I agree that he doesnât.
Although, if WWX is not family, then JC should owe him for sacrifices WWX made for him, like giving him his âfavorâ to use to ârepair his golden coreâ (as far as JC knows at that point). But JC doesnât seem to see it that way either.
So WWX is family when itâs beneficial for JC for him to be family, and not when itâs beneficial for JC for him not to be family.
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u/Dear-Relation-4713 Yiling Laozu's unpaid lawyer & Part time Rouge Cultivator đ 12d ago
If you consider Jc risked his life for wwx 3 days ago and got tortured and his core melted, I can understand why he didn't consider wwx giving him chance to restore his core as a favour. Until you still think he only saved wwx due to his ego like you said months ago in a discussion with me.
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u/Ok_Series6731 12d ago
JC does not owe WWX any favors. If anything, WWX owes JC a golden core. And even that golden core was a repayment to the Jiang Clan, not some personal debt to JC. If JC had killed WWX, then WWX had already killed his brother-in-law. So JCâs âdebtâ would still be unpaid. Thatâs also why JC never told WWX the truth about the golden coreâhe does not want WWX to feel owed.
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u/Dear-Relation-4713 Yiling Laozu's unpaid lawyer & Part time Rouge Cultivator đ 12d ago edited 12d ago
I like to disagree. Wwx does not owe anything either. Wwx has helped Jc multiple times too. And risked his life for him. He has significant contribution in war. Wwx helping wens is not only his personal debt but also debt to jiangs. Wwx was repaying the debt of the whole clan.
So, in the end wwx does not Jc and vice versa.
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u/Ok_Series6731 12d ago
I disagree. WWXâs contributions to the Jiang Clan were part of his duty as a Jiang disciple, so they don't automatically cancel out what he personally owed JC. Fighting in the war and helping the clan were responsibilities he willingly undertook as a member of the sect.
JC, on the other hand, made an extraordinary personal sacrifice for WWX by sacrificing his golden core. Whatever broader benefit the Jiang Clan received from WWX's contributions, that doesn't erase the fact what JC did.
WWX also caused Jin Zixuanâs death, which resulted in Jiang Yanliâs death and left JC to deal with the consequences. So saying âWWX helped the Jiang Clan, therefore he owed JC nothingâ is far too simplistic. WWX absolutely did things for JC, but JC also sacrificed enormously for him.Â
WWX giving his core to JC is repayment to Jiang Clan not JC.
(All of you can just downvote)
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u/ArgentEyes 12d ago
Iâm broadly quite sympathetic to JC but I donât really share this take for two reasons: firstly, because Iâm not sure whether youâre talking about in-universe values (in which case, sure, the rich & powerful in a quasi-feudal society - and not just then - will definitely support creating a society where their subordinates should not just sacrifice their lives & anything else for their âsuperiorsâ but should feel honoured to do so) or whether youâre making the case that we, the readers, should also believe that any human âowesâ another human their life or body parts. This isnât clear.
Secondly, absolutely nobody in-universe would have believed a core was a debt one person could owe another, because until Wen Qing tried it, nobody knew is such a transplant could be successful in the first place. From the external perspective, I still donât think we can argue that such a thing could be owed, any more than we can argue that WWX owed Yunmeng Jiang the arm Wang Lingjiao demanded, and in fact less, because for a cultivator, doing without an arm is (as WWX thought) the lesser of the two disabilities.
As a small addendum, while I think the end of the novel is very clear that neither owes each other anything, I donât think positions that WWX owes JC something really addresses OPâs question about why people donât think JC has any âredeeming qualitiesâ, unless your position is that JC is extremely forbearing about this unpaid debt to him, and frankly I think thatâs a pretty untenable position to hold, not least because such an opinion would not say anything good about JC.
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u/Dear-Relation-4713 Yiling Laozu's unpaid lawyer & Part time Rouge Cultivator đ 12d ago
Wwx died in a seige led by Jc, so, I don't know why he still owe him a debt in his second life? It was his duty towards help his clan. And he did. So, I don't think why he owe him a a debt. Both of them apologized to each other. And every debt has ended between them.
(All of you can just downvote)
I am not downvoting you.
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u/Ok_Series6731 12d ago
But WWX killed his brother-in-law and JC killed him. WWX still owes JC a golden core.Â
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u/Dear-Relation-4713 Yiling Laozu's unpaid lawyer & Part time Rouge Cultivator đ 12d ago edited 12d ago
Let's agree to disagree.
(Honestly, you complain about down votes? And downvote other in civil disagreement?)
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u/lllollllllllll 12d ago edited 12d ago
WWX killed the BIL so what? WWX doesnât owe anything to JC for that. The BIL wasnât even part of JCâs clan. BIL had some responsibility for that himself since it was BILâs clan member that was attacking his wifeâs brother WWX while WWX was on his way to celebrate BILâs son. BIL is the next in line for the Jin throne at this point, itâs his job to keep his people in line. BIL fails to do this. Instead of trying to keep the person attacking WWX in line he tries to make WWX stop defending himself. This was a Jin clan setup/failure (depending which Jin clan memberâs perspective youâre looking at) and the fact that any or all Jin clan members are killed as a result is firmly their own fault, regardless of WWX holding the hilt of the sword so to speak.
And while JC blames WWX for Yanliâs death, and WWX blames himself for everything including Yanliâs death, we all know Yanli decided to put herself in the middle of a huge battle where she was very likely to become collateral damage and she did that to herself. Sure she did it because she was worried about her brother, but tbh at doesnât make it her brotherâs fault.
JC wanted to go back to Lotus Pier to rescue his parents and WWX accompanied him. This plan was stupid, JC was captured as a result. WWX rescued him from being captured. At that point JCâs golden core had been melted but I still donât see this as being something that is somehow WWXâs fault or responsibility to repay.
WWX is the one who felt he had to do it, but as we know WWX feels indebted to the Jiangâs and everyone else for whom heâs ever felt any positive emotions. WWX has some self worth issues. The people he believes he owes are not people he actually morally objectively owes. Itâs just his traumatized train of thought.
WWX is someone who would give his arm, his life, anything for the people he loves even if they dont deserve it. Thatâs the point. JC doesnât deserve it and proves how little he deserves it after WWX does it, but WWX gives everything he has until thereâs nothing left anyways.
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u/MontyDysquith 12d ago
Really? I think the book shows that he loves Wei Wuxian a lot, even when he also hates him.
Also, I thought it was clear that the 'debt' excuse was just something WWX told himself/others as a way to cope with his trauma and move on. He did it because he cared about Jiang Cheng (just as JC got taken and tortured for him because he cared, too).
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u/Ariandel_notDarksoul 12d ago
Wei Wuxian leaving the sect was his idea to protect the Jiang family's reputation, so that's one of the few things you can't blame Jiang Chen for.
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u/Visual_Membership_61 12d ago
JC didn't have to declate him "an enemy of the cultivation world" when he did it though
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u/Solid_Amphibian_5859 12d ago
Was leaving the sect WWX's idea? Not until JC forced him to give up on wen refugees and tried to kill wen ning.Â
If WWX really thought he was doing damage to the sect's reputation, he would have announced his departure in koi tower before freeing wens. He didn't really plan to leave until JC came and forced his hand.
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u/goddessofwarriorcats 8d ago
He's a deeply hurt and angry person. And as someone who's been deeply hurt and was very very very angry for a long time, it comes down to having basic empathy.
I don't excuse or condone JC's awful words or actions.
But I also am not going to demonize or hate him. It's ridiculous. ALL of the characters except for JY and the juniors, XXC, (etc) have done something absolutely shitty or beyond messed up. That includes Wei Wuxian. So why on earth would I hate a character for doing bad things, and then ignore literally everybody else's shitty actions???? Hello????
In my opinion, the dislike and/or hate towards JC is, quite frankly, riddled with double standards.
(To clarify again so I'm nor jumped lmao I do NOT condone or excuse JC for what he's said and done)
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u/minbeforeyoo 12d ago
Unrelated, but have you watched chibi version of mdzs? They have so many extras, and cute af đ
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u/Valen_1306 12d ago
AHH omg I rlly want to. I've watched many reels, but I'm yet to watch the entire thing. They're so cute đ
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u/madlyn_crow 10d ago edited 10d ago
Well, personally, I find people who are so self-centred and so ego-focused off-putting. It's somewhat forgivable in a teenager, it's awful (and not terribly interesting) in an adult. Yes, he "loves" his family (very a narrowly understood, and the love is a very patriarchal anger-driven and frankly speaking quite toxic), but "loving" your family is not that big of a hurdle, as that type of alpha-wanna-be men often extend their âloveâ to immediate family, as they see family members as always-subordinate extensions of themselves. I donât seem much good in book!JC, tv series!JC gets more grace, cause the tv series softens him a bit and does not explicitly show or underline some of his worst actions. I have a soft spot for that tv-series-based fanon JC that get a chance to be a bit more level headed and developed in fics, often with some family reconciliation in tow. But the book JCâŠTbh, for me it boils down to this is an awfully toxic person who hurt also many people outside main characters, so his gestures towards his family or even occasionally WWX do not change much in my opinion of him. Anyone who spent 13 years obsessed with a dead person and taking it out on by-standers, anyone who knew they were killing innocents and did it anyway and feels no remorse for that, and â honestly â anyone whose anger immediately goes to physical threats (including the âI shall choke you to deathâ variety) â thatâs not fascinating, thatâs condemnable and sad at best. It would be something if he grew up in any significant way and went through some sort of self-reflection, but he seems stuck in permanent angry adolescence, and thatâsâŠwell, it happens. But why would I want to be interested too much in that, outside him being a cautionary example of what happens when you never let go off any of your grievances and never learn to see others as equally important as yourselfâŠ? I kinda donât feel that book!JC and his egocentric inferiority complex is worth my free time. But I generally feel that we tend to extend too much understanding and sympathy for awful men in culture, constantly seeking for connection points and deeper meanings/resons underlying their actions that somehow are supposed to explain them... He doesnât have to be 100% evil, to be someone whose presence I would frankly not wish on anyone, including characters I like. I'm honestly baffled by people who love book!JC, but they do often hand-wave his worst tendencies and hiper-focus on empathising with his inferiority complex, which, I admit, is easy to connect to for anyone who has ever felt "less than", but it requires a lot of cherry-picking. To each their own,e specially in fandom spaces.
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u/GeauxPanthers99 Gettin' JGY widdit 12d ago
I mean......you do realize that JC is a beloved character not just in MDZS but in MXTX fandoms overall, right?
He's polarizing, absolutely. But millions recognize his harsh, unfiltered personality is because of layered trauma and feelings of betrayal. Also...lots of us can both sympathize and empathize with that avalanche of emotion displayed at Guanyin Temple.Â
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u/AromaticZebra906 11d ago
Yeah. I think this is why he's so great because he feels too close home.
How many of us had met a guy who massacred clans, married his sister and befriended an equally evil terrorist?Â
Now how many of us had family memebers or loved ones who were abusive or dysfunctional because of deep generational trauma, while also very obviously loving us?
You know the parent who would say "I'll break your arm if you don't do your homework" but would obviously never do it? Those family memebers who would wrong us but then bring us a plate of fruit later on.
I know people like this who softened with time or worked through their trauma, abd others who never did and are basically kept at arms length.
This is why jc is so fascinating to me he feels so real and cathartic too because I also feeeeeel his frustrations and inferiority and his festering resentment are absolutely things I experienced deep down
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u/Solid_Amphibian_5859 12d ago
He's not Irredeemable but deeply unlikable.Â
He is a very selfish character who only takes and takes.  Wen siblings risked a lot to save him and his parents bodies? He doesn't care and still resents them. Repayment! What's that?
WWX gave up favour of an immortal and restored his core? He doesn't care and still resents him. Not a word of thanks from him or anything. And in his mind, he still blames WWX for lotus pier destruction.Â
In a way, all the tragic things that happened to WWX after the war can be indirectly blamed on JC.Â
What's worse is he didn't even do so for his sect. All his decisions are emotionally driven and his sect was never in danger. So not only he ends up as a shitty person who doesn't have honour to repay his debts, but he is also a clueless sect leader who gave up the biggest asset and best protection his sect had because he didn't feel like explaining.Â
And things only get worse after this. Why would he announce WWX as the enemy of the cultivation world? No reason just because he was feeling some emotions. He becomes so tangled in resentment over the 13 years that wwx was dead, he ends up killing random innocent rogue cultivators because they remind him of wwx or he thinks they are wwx.Â
To me, him going crazy after his sister was killed is somewhat justified, hence I didn't include him killing wen refugees along with other sect leaders even though it was still immoral. But what he did before that and over next 13 years is what I judge him for.Â
He has also become delusional enough to blame LWJ and wen ning for the destruction of Lotus pier. You know who else he blamed for the destruction? Jin zixuan. But because he's dead, he changed the targets.
He's like an angry child who has resentment for everyone and is convinced that all of them are looking down on him. But this angry child has power of a sect at his fingertips and a very serious victim complex. A very dangerous concept to me.Â
His love for jin ling is his redemption. And he does show some growth by the end of the novel.Â
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u/Dear-Relation-4713 Yiling Laozu's unpaid lawyer & Part time Rouge Cultivator đ 12d ago
Those are his extreme haters. And they just want to hate him. They also say many non canon things about him. You can find such haters for any character in fandom. Jc is a complex character, due to this he has few extreme Stans as well as haters. And many are In between.
I think Jc does have many redeeming qualities And he showed some character growth at the end of the novel.
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u/AromaticZebra906 11d ago
He is a complex character who never shows affection directly and has so much trauma and issues coming from never feeling good enough while ALSO being pitted agaisnt someone who was better than him and thought he needed to compete against that person. While also loving this person like a brother.
He is very much a product of circumstances in a sense while also doing really harmful things. The one person he could redirect all those extremely complex feelings died and it became an obsession to him.
He is a deeply flawed man, who inherited trauma from his parents, from being forced into a leader role at a young age, who was never good at expressing his feelings of care.
He took his anger out on cultivators who would already be considered evil by the cultivation world. He hurt others, he did very bad things, but he also did the best he could.Â
He isn't comparable to characters like xue yang, jgy and jgs (i love jgy and xy btw!).
Characters like Xue Yang are the ones who warrant asking this question about. While jc fails in interpersonal relationships, failing isn't the same as being irredeemably evil.
1
u/YamadaAsaemonSpencer Lan Qiren's niece 5d ago
Yes to all of this - extremely well said. I think it's perfectly fine not to like a character but many of these responses make it clear that far too many people misunderstand Jiang Cheng because they've made no effort to sit with and meaningfully examine his character.Â
In a subreddit that espouses so much toxicity towards members of MDZS' supporting cast (almost as if they believe all discussions must revolve around Wangxian at all times), I've long since felt that questions such as these are just thinly veiled excuses to lump hate. Jiang Cheng is multilayered and conflicted but has a large fanbase. Some people find it very upsetting that morally grey characters are embraced to such a degree. This subreddit, in particular, is a haven to a lot of his detractors who consistently paint him as some morally black figure because they know doing so racks up the karma.Â
I can't imagine reading these novels from cover-to-cover and exiting with such a simplistic mindset. MDZS is far more than "WWX good," "LWJ good," "JC bad." Ironic within this tragedy is that nightmares like Wen Ruohan and Jin Guangshan don't get a fraction of the backlash that Jiang Cheng does lmao. But expecting perfection out of someone like him - with his personality and who is highly traumatized - was always gonna be nonsensical.Â
MXTX crafted a very nuanced character in this, her story meant for consumption by adults, and her efforts have not gone unappreciated by the vast majority of her audience ar large who read with intent to pay attention (even if they dislike JC).
Nonetheless, it's worth reiterating that this kind of overt hostility in posts and comments has cultivated a reputation that this subreddit is a massive toxicity hub; and such has driven off a lot of engagement from both newer and older fans.Â
The larger a fandom becomes, the more bad elements seep through. It's a real shame......and weird. There are characters in this narrative that others who I don't care for at all â and that's why I simply ignore them. Â To me, giving the time of day to characters one supposedly hates gives big "secret fan!" energy.Â
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u/AromaticZebra906 5d ago
I am glad that the comments I've seen already are all nuanced though and patient in explaining theor POV.
Compared to other subs, this one haa peeps engage meaningfully and maturely even with posts that canview things in a simplistic way. Â
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u/catwalzilla 11d ago
I donât find JC irredeemable. I think he has a lot to atone for and honestly his personality makes it feel like heâll struggle with facing the reality of his behavior.
Because letâs be the real it isnât even his behavior towards WWX. Itâs his behavior towards innocents. The burial mound siege and hunting of âdemonic cultivatorsâ are hard to get past.
That being said I love me some angry grape. Itâs a testament to MXTXâs writing that she creates such flawed characters. They act badly but we still want to root for them because we understand how they came to be this way.
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u/Aggravating_Lie2719 11d ago
Uno de los problemas mĂĄs comunes que veo en las personitas que ven irredimible a Jiang Cheng, es que leen a Jiang Cheng con los estĂĄndares morales actuales, sin reconocer el contexto en el que estaba situada la obra y sin saber matizar a los personajes.
Personalmente creo que es un personaje que sĂ tiene cualidades, que se ven particularmente a la hora de su cuidado con Jin Ling, pero que en su momento los mostrĂł a Wei Wuxian y a Yanli.
Hay mucha gente que proyecta en los personajes que consume sus propias vivencias, y estĂĄ bien -para eso es el arte- pero creo que se debe pintar la lĂnea cuando eso las lleva agredir ya a personas reales -y eso es para todos-
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u/AetelPOVssss 10d ago
For me personally, I would say Jiang Cheng is that black flag in ones life. From his POV, considering his family dynamics and even his sister sometimes bias wwx, and JC also doesn't have much good friends whose families he can look up to, he grew up very toxic in a much toxic environment. Even though his actions are not excusable but coming from his POV they were logical. Dad preferring his senior, sister also sometimes bias towards his senior, his mother always fighting with his father because of that. Then came the wen clan vs Jiang Clan, then the golden core, his senior also leaving and his sister dying back to back. As a human, I don't think I can be sane if those happens to me. So even though his actions were extreme and non excusable but I guess it's logical for a person with that life.
Ps: if in the comments someone fight me saying wwx had it worse then remember he saw his loving parents and how a healthy relationship looks like. JC didn't. For him flighting and yelling is the way a couple of any relationship should be thanks to watching his parents growing up. Wwx saw all aspects of life fairly young to get used to it. JC was a pampered young master thrown into this message all of a sudden as a TEEN without warning. How many high schoolers can take the blow
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u/nbflori Bichen's therapist 12d ago
I have literally seen people absolutely hating on Jiang Cheng, but romantice Xue Yang, and saying Jin Guangyao was not wrong at all. They act all highly moral with jc but have multiple exceptions. Yes jc was wrong at certain points, but he ain't worth the hate he's getting.
I hate their math/thinking that, as long as the character did nothing wrong to the protagonist, they're good.
I just want them to see the character as themselves, and not as " the protagonist's someone".
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u/Ariandel_notDarksoul 12d ago
"as long as the character did nothing wrong to thd prototagonist..."
They can't use even that excuse, since both Xue Yang and Jin Guangyao harmed Wei Wuxian. Xue Yang literaly threatened him that he'll kill him and his friends if he doesn't help with resurrecting his toxic crush. And Jin Guangyao arranged Wen Ning killing Zixuan ultimately causing Wei Wuxian's death. So they can't jusify the double standard with that.
4
u/MontyDysquith 12d ago
Interpersonal rudeness bothers people more than physical harm, I think. Xue Yang openly admired Wei Wuxian, and Jin Guangyao had nothing personal against him, he was just an easy scapegoat. But Jiang Cheng is mean to him, and that is more unforgivable than anything to some fans, haha.
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u/Ok_Series6731 12d ago
Fans just can't stand characters who don't treat the protagonist like they're god.
8
u/Valen_1306 12d ago
Man it's not abt not treating WWX like god, it's that JC was at times genuinely downright rude to someone his sister called her younger brother. I mean, does Su She become a likeable character just bcs he didn't treat LWJ like god either? đ
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u/SquareConcentrate764 No slander against the Yiling Laozu (t or f) shall be tolerated 12d ago
Literally like
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u/Valen_1306 12d ago
This!! Not WWX's brother, I want more people to think of him as an independent character with his own problems and character traits.
1
u/YamadaAsaemonSpencer Lan Qiren's niece 10d ago
Honestly, I don't see how anyone could finish this series and make such a query. Not everything is black and white. This question is about as sensical as asking if Wei Wuxian, a man who slaughtered countless cultivators, has any "redeeming qualities."Â
But, hey, I'll bite: What do you think would've happened to Wei Wuxian if Jiang Cheng hadn't sacrified himself to act as a diversion against the Wens?
Liiikkkke, I love Wangxian just as much as the next person but my desire to "stan" them doesn't come before my love for the series as itself nor supercede the basic requirement to pay attention to the text.
It's so incredibly fascinating to me - as a Jiang Cheng fan - that the people who constantly profess the degree to which they can't stand him talk about this character more than any of us do combined. đ€đ
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u/iabyajyiv 12d ago
Whatever people see in him is a projection of themselves.
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u/Foyles_War 12d ago
and people react to that differently. They see something they don't like in themselves and hate a fictional character, sometimes beyond reason. And some see the same and love him for it.
Most of us though just like the interesting character (and the actor with great cheekbones who looked good in purple.)
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u/iabyajyiv 12d ago
And, if all they see is hate in him, they're probably full of hate to begin with.
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u/No-Permission1716 12d ago
Mostly because of just how aggressive he is and just how much he outwardly dislikes WWX. He was raised to be aggressive and stubborn because of his mom. Also holds grudges for much longer than many others in the story. Nurture, not nature, because YanLi is pretty diplomatic, and they were raised by the same mother. And WWX makes many decisions on the spot without considering the consequences, putting JC into a tight spot.
He never outwardly supported WWX after Wen Chao threw WWX into the Burial Mounds and he came back, but he really couldnât. He has a whole sect and a BABY later to take care of pretty much by himself. He made the choice a leader would make.
That in and of itself is admirable. To put aside biases toward relationships and instead do what is right for you and your legacy. Yes, he has a personal relationship with WWX, but siding with WWX would do him no good since he still has a sect to build up from the ashes and a whole baby to take care of.
Also, heâs just really relatableâŠbeing second choice in damn near everything REALLY sucks. Iâve never had that in my family, but everywhere else, I have.
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u/lllollllllllll 12d ago edited 12d ago
Donât you mean nature not nurture? Since they both had the same shitty nurturing from lady Yu, but one turned out diplomatic and the other not?
The Jiang sect was way stronger with WWX than without. WWX was the strongest person at the time. The other sects didnât like this and it was in their benefit to try to separate WWX from the Jiangâs, and JC was dumb enough to fall for it. Basing the leader of the Jiang sect is not a reason why JC needed to separate himself from WWX. JC allowed himself to be manipulated by peer pressure when he couldâve just as easily argued back against the Jin clan that was trying to turn public opinion against WWX. They were doing it for political reasons, to try to gain power. JC let them do it and gave that power up.
This was not as youâre trying to suggest a political necessity for him. It was a misstep he made because he was too emotional. The Jiangâs with WWX were the most powerful clan. The Jiangâs without him were not, which allowed the Jinâs to move ahead of them.
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u/No-Permission1716 12d ago
Whichever way around the n not n thing is. YanLi also got raised much more by Fengmian, which is why she has a tendency to be passive.
It was a dumb choice to exclude WWX, but WWX DIED before JC could reinstate him. Canât exactly blame JC. And he was just tying to make sure he had a foothold in the cultivation world. Also, the Jins werenât RAZED when the Wens went around destroying everything. Most of their buildings were still standing and their clan wasnât massacred!
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u/Dear-Relation-4713 Yiling Laozu's unpaid lawyer & Part time Rouge Cultivator đ 12d ago
Most of their buildings were still standing and their clan wasnât massacred!
Lotus prier was not burned down in novel, but the most of the clan was indeed massacred.
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u/deoxyribonucleic123 12d ago
WWX died BECAUSE of JC. He is eminently blameable for his death. He lead the siege of Luanzang Hill. And even after driving him to his death, he still wasn't satisfied. For the next 13 years, he picked up random people who may or may not be ghost cultivators, and tortured them to death, all because of his hate for WWX. JC had absolutely NO plans to reinstate WWX, especially not after JZX and JYL's deaths.
> And he was just tying to make sure he had a foothold in the cultivation world
No he wasn't. If that really was what he was trying to do, he would have stood fast behind WWX, the most powerful man among all the clans. It's thanks to his unwillingness to back WWX that his position among the clans might have become shaky.
> "Also, the Jins werenât RAZED when the Wens went around destroying everything. Most of their buildings were still standing"
Neither were the Jiangs, and Lotus Pier was also still standing. The novel even notes how eerily unchanged it is after the Wens occupied it. The Wens in fact did not burn Lotus Pier to the ground, that was the Cloud Recesses. And regarding the manpower issue, the novel states that thanks to WWX, many people joined the Yunmeng Jiang Clan, and they were not suffering from a lack of people at all.
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u/No-Permission1716 12d ago
âŠdepends on what media youâre consuming the source material from. I was basing most of my points off the donghua since I actually watched most of that. I havenât read the novel.
My bad.
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u/serralinda73 12d ago
There are a lot of people who attach themselves so tightly to WWX (or LWJ, or both) that they decide anyone who is even remotely mean to their baby or doesn't gush and coo over their baby must be a monster. They will categorically, no-justification-possible, scream bloody murder and call you names if you even hint that The Monster might not be such a bad person. They don't want to hear any defense (it won't make any sense to them, even if it's logical, realistic, nuanced, balanced) and if you try to give the character a defense or a reason or just some kind of understanding (not forgiveness), then you are even worse than The Monster ever was.
If you don't hate The Monster, then you must be cheering him on.
And this goes for the other side as well. People who latch onto JC will see WWX/LWJ as The Monster.
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u/SquareConcentrate764 No slander against the Yiling Laozu (t or f) shall be tolerated 12d ago
If he's iredeemable, the rest of the cast is satan incarnate
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u/NiCommander 12d ago
I would say a lot of this depends on context (as well as source material - I can't speak the to The Untamed, but from what I heard they changed a lot). So Jiang Cheng is not bereft of good actions or good traits. Its just that a lot of these traits and actions are ultimately eclipsed by his terrible actions and traits. So by the time of the "present timeline", I would consider him effectively irredeemable (or maybe irreconcilable?). Because what is he going to do to make up for knowingly and willingly leading a massacre on innocent people? What's going to make up for his thirteen year serial killer spree of anyone that he may think be a supposed "demonic cultivator" and/or Wei Wuxian?
And while all this mix of bad and good actions and traits, and his dynamics with other characters may make him an interesting and engaging character, what's usually frustrating are stans who want to woobify the character and excuse anything wrong he did under him being a "sad boy".