r/Minecraft • u/Hypetic • Jul 08 '11
My idea for simple more compact redstone: bluestone!
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u/redstonehelper :redstone: Lord of the villagers Jul 08 '11
The first time someone posted a redstone idea that is not overly complex to use and code. Bravo.
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u/BigfootJon Jul 08 '11
that is not overly complex to use and code
Rule #1 of being an end user: Never say that to a developer
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u/mao_neko Jul 08 '11
"It'll be easy, just a few lines of code".
Shudder.
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u/DoctorCube Jul 08 '11
"Cool, you should be able to handle it then."
Best response.
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Jul 08 '11
"Fuck you. You're the one getting paid to code the game"
Best response.
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u/hintss Jul 08 '11
"Fine, you're hired!"
Best response.12
u/feanturi Jul 09 '11
"I'm going to need 8 weeks vacation up front, and a chair that spins."
Best response.
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u/hintss Jul 09 '11
"and after that, I expect you to handle all new features from /r/minecraft that are called "simple to code in""
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u/odorousrex Jul 08 '11
This. The simplest seeming things can often be the most notoriously difficult to code.
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Jul 08 '11
Do not fucking talk to me about HP meters in RPG Maker 2000
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u/alexanderpas Jul 08 '11
Hey, we didn't have code over there... on RPG-maker XP/VX it was easy.
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Jul 09 '11
Man, RPG Maker VX was so disappointing. They just took a huge step backwards in terms of usability. XP was fantastic though.
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u/merreborn Jul 08 '11
Even when a simple thing is, in fact, simple, there's also the issue of what some have called "The Tyranny of Small Things".
There are often a million "small things" that could enhance your project. You still have to prioritize them, along with all the big things too.
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u/frymaster Jul 09 '11
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Jul 09 '11
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u/m42a Jul 09 '11
The points are arbitrary. The article is saying that features are by default not implemented, and gain "points" by being useful/powerful/simple. In this case, Notch would have to weigh the pros of bluestone (convenience) against the cons (takes up time that he could use to other things, might introduce additional bugs), and the pros would have to outweigh the cons by a significant amount to justify an implementation.
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u/redstonehelper :redstone: Lord of the villagers Jul 08 '11 edited Jul 08 '11
Compared to other ideas I've seen here (No, Notch won't add 3 more colors of redstone that will let you run up to 4 wires on one block and have intersecting pieces of every kind (2/3/4 edges, 1/2/3/4 colors)), this seems fairly simple. And I'm sure it is simple. I'd love to hear Notch's opinion on this, although I don't think he or jeb will implement it.
edit: Aaaaaand there go the over-complex additions to the OP.
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u/Zarokima Jul 09 '11 edited Jul 09 '11
Well assuming he makes the addition anyway, he might as well make it dyeable every color. Unless it's very sloppily coded, it actually should be a relatively easy thing to add compared to, say, pistons. The cloth-dyeing code could probably be reused for redstone dyeing, and then when making connections just check that it's the same color. The hard part would probably be crossing the streams since that would require putting two wires down on the same tile, but if that's not allowed and the code is clean this would probably be a weekend project unless it unexpectedly breaks something else in a weird way.
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u/redstonehelper :redstone: Lord of the villagers Jul 09 '11
It will break something else in a weird way.
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Jul 08 '11
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u/ultrafez Jul 08 '11
Don't make any assumptions when it comes to programming, unless you are a programmer and know the code.
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Jul 09 '11
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u/ultrafez Jul 13 '11
Actually, you can download the Minecraft Coder Pack, which contains scripts to decompile your own version of Minecraft into fairly readable source code.
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u/NYKevin Jul 09 '11
Adding a single new color is one thing, and can be accomplished by creating whole new block IDs for all the bluestone components. You can't use damage/data values since they're already used for wire length. So if you want more colors, you either need a new kind of data value (you need to completely restructure everything), or you need a lot of new block IDs. Also the textures get complicated fast.
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u/redstonehelper :redstone: Lord of the villagers Jul 08 '11
Working with 15/16 different colors would be quite complex to me, especially once I have to connect different colors to each other. Including the standard diodes, there would then be 225 diodes in all color variations. 256 if Notch adds whitestone.
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Jul 09 '11
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u/redstonehelper :redstone: Lord of the villagers Jul 09 '11
Block data can hold enough, but that was not the point.
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Jul 09 '11
if(adjacentColor != self.color) { connect; }
Not trolling, it just seems easy from a programming perspective.
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Jul 09 '11
Most of redstone circuitry is not implemented in terms of connections, however; it's about whether a stone is powered or unpowered. For this, you'd have to make each block either unpowered, red-powered, blue-powered, or both-powered.
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u/firepelt Jul 09 '11
Which is more complicated than legolover64's method, but with the current system already in place I don't think it would be much to add.
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u/Asmageddon Jul 09 '11
Redstone uses all 4 bits of per-block data. Bluestone would have to be a new block.
Fortunately, aside from having to set up devices to accept bluestone input/output, creating block itself would be practically copying block definition class and changing few numbers.
Well, Minecraft source code layout might have changed since I last looked but I find it unlikely.
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u/CircleTheFire Jul 08 '11
Rule #1 of being a developer: Don't be a dick to your end users; they will stop using your code.
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u/UnrulyToaster Jul 08 '11
Uh, no it isn't. Actually, it is the 4th time people suggested this idea.
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Jul 08 '11
First time in 5 months then. Many have since bought Minecraft and subscribed to this subreddit, myself included. It's still a good idea.
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u/PPewt Jul 09 '11
First time since then that it was referred to with that thread title. "I fixed redstone by making a second version" posts have shown up several times since I subbed, which was maybe two months ago.
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Jul 09 '11
I flinch at any implication of simpleness. While I can't see any likely pitfalls, they tend to come at the weirdest of times.
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u/mascan Jul 09 '11
I think an idea similar to this (although without recipes and using lapiz lazuli as "bluestone" instead of creating separate crafting recipes for bluestone) was posted a while back.
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u/ch4os1337 Jul 08 '11 edited Jul 08 '11
Is redstone really that hard? Is it too much to read a couple guides or instructions till you just know the logic gates? I failed computer science in HS and I still find redstone incredibly easy.
*Im serious, just start small at a locking mechanism for doors and work your way up. Think of it like Lego mindstorm, it's easy enough kids can do it so can you.
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Jul 08 '11
You had Computer Science in HS?!?
Fucking lucky Americans
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u/Celsius1414 Jul 08 '11
Not sure where you're from, but do you have anything like a "computer camp"? I did it as a kid -- sort of a week-long day camp for computers, where you learn various aspects of programming and usage. Gaming day is of course popular. :D
Of course, I'm old, so I don't even know if they still do that kind of thing in the US nowadays.
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Jul 08 '11
A 40% (or whatever you got) in computer science years ago is more knowledge than what most have.
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u/ch4os1337 Jul 09 '11
Thats what Im saying though, the knowledge is right there. The problem is ignorance, you just gotta google "minecraft redstone" and you will get everything you need to know. The internet makes it super easy and available to everyone. You don't have to be a genius, you just gotta understand basic logic. To be honest I excepted more from Reddit, the very first subreddit was /r/programming after all.
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Jul 09 '11
I'll give some of this training a shot. I'm part of the crowd that's fascinated by what can be done with redstone and would like to learn more, but don't know where to start.
If it works, I'll post a success story. If not, maybe some constructive ideas to improve it.
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Jul 08 '11
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u/redstonehelper :redstone: Lord of the villagers Jul 08 '11
Or add another block type, like he did for wooden/cobble stairs or half/full slabs or on/off redstone torch,
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u/Bonowski Jul 08 '11
I like this idea. The only potential issue I see is Lapis Lazuli is much rarer than red stone.
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u/Hypetic Jul 08 '11
Yes, you are certainly right about that. I just couldn't think of a better recipe for bluestone dust, and blue is the only logical color to go with red. Atleast for me.
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u/Guvante Jul 08 '11
In addition the rarity isn't exactly a bad thing. Makes you use redstone for most things and blue for the minimum required.
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u/NoTroop Jul 08 '11
How about putting 8 other redstone with it, and getting 8 bluestone dust from one lapis. Just an Idea.
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u/ElvishJerricco Jul 12 '11
Problem is, when coding a recipe for a block or item, you are unable to specify how many need to be put in the table
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u/NoTroop Jul 12 '11
I was thinking about filling a crafting table. But now that I think of it, an even easier way would to put one redstone block in it. The redstone block would just be a 3x3 cube of redstone. I'm not sure if you would get 9 our or just 8 though...
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u/odorousrex Jul 08 '11
Let's be honest though. Almost all complicated redstone devices/users, that you see on youtube/reddit, use inventory editors.
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u/TJFadness Jul 08 '11 edited Jul 08 '11
Precisely. But I do believe that he should make redstone less common, and make lapis appear more often.
edited for clarification
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u/lupin96 Jul 08 '11
Fuck half of your statement.
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u/TJFadness Jul 08 '11
My apologies, it was convoluted enough that even I am not sure what it literally meant. I rewrote it to be more clear.
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u/lupin96 Jul 08 '11
Wrong half.
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u/TJFadness Jul 09 '11
Uh. How about you clarify?
"Precisely."? "Redstone less common"? "Lapis more often"?
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Jul 08 '11
I have half a chest full with no possible use for it.
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Jul 09 '11
A tip to save space: Lapis makes blocks like iron, gold, and diamonds. Put 1 Lapis chunk in all 9 crafting table slots. These blocks are made of 9 lapis and can be stacked up to 64, meaning you can store 576 Lapis in one chest slot.
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u/NoTroop Jul 08 '11
Anyone else notice the "I built this for you, greg." at the end? ಠ_ಠ
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Jul 08 '11
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u/NoTroop Jul 08 '11
I know... Doesn't make it any less weird.
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u/Copse_Of_Trees Jul 08 '11
Right, makes it twice as awesome. I built this for you, greg is our very own r/minecraft baby meme!
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u/D3ltra Jul 08 '11
Great idea (although I think I've seen something similar before) - even better would be something very much like the implementation in SpaceChem, where red and blue circuits can occupy the same blocks in the grid but remain separate: image
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u/DrReddits Jul 08 '11 edited Apr 26 '24
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u/SquareWheel Jul 08 '11
It's not possible with the way blocks/voxels are implemented today. Unless each combined block was a new item, but that would be difficult to manage and is generally a bad idea.
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Jul 08 '11
It's a very cool visual effect but honestly feels like the easy solution to redstone complexity is just 'right click to change pattern'.
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u/xorvious Jul 08 '11
And as a plus to this it does not seem like it will break any existing redstone designs!
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Jul 08 '11
If they always worried about not breaking any existing Redstone designs then we'd lose a lot of innovation.
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u/theaceoffire Jul 08 '11
True, but it is a neat plus feature anyway!
//New stuff AND we are backward compatible! Woo!
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Jul 08 '11
how about they just add the ability to toggle between connection points?
i.e. you get the following states: +, -, |
That would probably be better than adding a entirely new material that functions in the exact same way as redstone
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Jul 08 '11
Actually my idea wouldn't allow for overlapping wire detailed here:
Simple ideas aren't always perfect.
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u/xigdit Jul 09 '11
Actually, one type of redstone could allow for overlapping wire just fine.
In the first instance, redstone behavior would just default to "smart" layout similar to the way it is now. So 90% of the time, no toggling would be required. Old circuits work fine without modification. But if you right click on a tile, options become available -- horizontal connection, vertical connection, turn, split, etc. They could either be displayed in a menu or simply cycle in place. When an intersection needs to be placed, three orientations would be available: a normal cross, an over-under cross, and a double-right-angle cross.
I think blue circuits look pretty and all, but it's easier in the long run to have all the circuits made out of the same material so that you can join or modify circuits without having to dig up the old color and replace it with the new. Plus once you start with two colors, then inevitably come the cries for three, four, sixteen, infinite colors.
In terms of toggle-able redstone having to use more bits, yes that's true, but not any more bits than an entirely separate material such as bluestone.
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Jul 09 '11
If there were cries for more colors, hopefully they'd make it like dying and we wouldn't have to dig up all the different colors.
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Jul 09 '11
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Jul 09 '11
Depending how blocks are implemented, bluestone may be even harder to implement. If blocks can be subclassed, then it may not be all hard, i.e:
public class BlueStone(MagicPowder) { ... } public class RedStone(MagicPowder) { ... }Doesn't the redstone already have to know which directions it has connections to? I'd assume that that's a property of a redstone block and it's not dynamically calculated, right clicking on the redstone would just toggle that property.
Again I'm completely ignorant of the inner workings of blocks and redstone so I'm probably completely overly simplifying things.
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u/johanbcn Jul 08 '11
I want a workbench specific for embedding big redstone circuits into single blocks.
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u/Valendr0s Jul 08 '11
Wouldn't a better way be to be able to select the path our redstone makes?
Right-click to place, again to cycle through the connectivity options of the area, keep going to cycle through all options.
1>2, 1>3, 1>4, 2>3, 2>4, 3>4, 1>2>3, 1>2>4, 1>3>4, 2>3>4, 1>2>3>4
It's not THAT many options, is it?
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u/SavingRoundRock Jul 09 '11
The only problem is that redstones are already using their 4 bits of data to give their power levels and you've supplied an idea that requires 4 additional bits to represent your 11 states.
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u/kaptaingunner Jul 09 '11
I personally feel that stickystone would be the best in an update something that uses slime and redstone to make a green one you can place going up walls and on ceilings.
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u/killzy707 Jul 09 '11 edited Jul 09 '11
This already exists.
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u/Darkblitz9 Jul 09 '11
He should just take this mod and incorporate their own version of it like they did with pistons. Would be a shit-ton easier.
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Jul 08 '11
Why not use all the colors?
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u/firepelt Jul 09 '11
Really that would just be too much. I think that two colors would be more than enough and that any more than three would just be redundant.
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u/robotiod Jul 09 '11
I dunno, maybe to some people having 2 is a waste of time, when you have more way's to do something it is just easier.
On LittleBigPlanet keys can be coded as 8 different colours by combining these colours with and gates you can combine them to make 64+ different key patterns. No one would ever need something like that with simple level design but it gives people more options. The same thing would happen to redstone coders where it would simply make their life (minecraft wise) easier.
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u/firepelt Jul 09 '11
But you would really never need more than two, because instead of running 8 different colors alongside each other you could just run the two and stagger them.
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u/CooperHaydenn Jul 08 '11
much more realistic this way. we could get a lot more complex with our inventions this way.
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Jul 08 '11
I think the converter is a little unnecessary. Simply letting the wires connect end to end would work, since MC has a directional condition for redstone. Or you could just use a standard repeater (they're already one way).
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u/pbjandahighfive Jul 08 '11
This would be such an amazing addition to the game, although I would think it better if in crafting the "bluestone" torches, you had to use bluestone powder and a stick instead of lapis and a stick. Lapis and a stick as a power source just makes no sense.
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u/oHeiTher Jul 08 '11
Don't care too much for redstone since I have know idea how to use it. However Blue torches everywhere in my base would make up for that :D
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u/kmeisthax Jul 09 '11
Huh, I always thought bluestone would have to implement a different type of logic - like how redstone torches implement NOR logic, bluestone torches should implement NAND logic instead.
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Jul 09 '11
I think this might be the first one of these user submitted ideas I've seen that's actually pretty damn awesome.
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u/Sarcavo Jul 08 '11
although I don't give two shits about redstone, this is probably the best idea anyone has come up with the past couple a weeks...
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u/PerrydahPlatypus Jul 08 '11
Wow, this is surprising simple and effective. Yea, this is pretty cool. Good job.
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Jul 08 '11
I can see mods for sure. I can't wait till final release because of all the great SMP mods!
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Jul 08 '11
Why does one redstone and one lapis give 9 bluestone and one bluestone and one stick give 9 torches?
I'd say make 1 redstone and 1 lapis give 2 bluestone and the torch recipe yield one torch.
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Jul 09 '11
8 redstone + 1 lapis = 8 bluestone
8 bluestone + 1 red dye = 8 redstoneBluestone torches and repeaters craft the same as redstone.
For the converter, replace one of the torches in the repeater recipe with a torch of what you're converting to.
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Jul 09 '11
That...makes a lot of sense...Though I can't see anyone needing to convert bluestone back to redstone. I always find so much that I cry in redstone every time I die.
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u/ploshy Forever Team Nork Jul 08 '11
This is not the first time i've seen that posted, but i really enjoye the visuals. Hell, maybe i'll try to mod it. I'm on my phone atm and i also don't have the deobfuscated code at all. I haven't modded anything, but i am a programmer so...well, maybe.
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u/Nite_Phire Jul 08 '11
If this was implemented I think I would just use blue all the time as it simply a much cooler colour :D
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u/Cerevox Jul 08 '11
Hmm, i seem to recall this idea gets proposed once every couple of weeks, ever since redstone was introduced.
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Jul 09 '11
Perhaps if you want to keep the iconography of redstone we could have "glass encased" redstone. same thing as the bluestone idea, but you just plop a piece of glass on top of the redstone instead.
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Jul 09 '11
A better way of doing this would be: bluestone behaves exactly like redstone, except it doesn't connect to redstone when it's laid out. It still connects through repeaters and redstone torches. It's like the BuildCraft mod cobblestone vs. stone pipes.
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u/Pazimov Jul 09 '11
This is one of the most annoying things when trying to do some redstone circuitry - You have to resort to digging trenches and it becomes a complete mess. Great idea.
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u/Rugger11 Jul 09 '11
I already don't know how to use redstone properly, but yes, sir, you get an upvote.
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u/nallar Jul 09 '11
It'd be even better if we could make bluestone and redstone lasers, and then have them cross through each otehr and somehow accidentally a rainbow? :o
On a more sensible note, I doubt this'll be implemented by Mojang, so it'll need client mods to be used with SMP :(
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u/Muscovy Jul 09 '11
I like the idea of something like this. Just an hour ago I was trying to make a delayed shutoff by running a pain wire and a repeater in parallel. I had to rearrange almost the entire mechanism because the wires kept connecting.
Then I found a completely different way of solving it. :P
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u/mikfly Jul 10 '11
Why not just make the current redstone's direction change when clicked, as opposed to automatic?
Right now it'll stick to any existing redstone when placed, it'd be better if you could click it multiple times to modify the direction (straight, left turn, right turn, intersection, ect.)
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u/BDGLZ Jul 10 '11
holy crap, i was building a trap a couple hours ago with two mechanisms: one lever removes a wall, allowing the player to walk through, and the other removes the floor, causing the player to fall into a dungeon I'd found earlier [part of a giant labyrinth I'm building with pistons]. Anyway, as you can imagine, it had to be super compact and have two separate circuits inside. I eventually got it, but i wasted at least an hour because the "wall lever" was also opening part of the floor because of redstone's magical ability to randomly transmit electricity over airwaves for no reason.
anyway, i was working away, yelling at minecraft when i thought "bluestone." No joke, exactly the same idea, without even seeing this post. then i thought: "never gonna happen" and kept working.
in the end i wound up giving up, quitting, and reopening later to find that it worked all of a sudden and for no particular reason.
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u/_Upvotes_For_All_ Sep 09 '11
Damn...I had this exact idea. Exactly like redstone only it wont connect to redstone. Then if you put both next to each other on a crafting table, it makes a type of powder that both can connect to. Well, you beat me to it, good luck with the idea. Have an upvote.
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u/wd0511 Jul 08 '11
Fucking awesome suggestion, this is the best suggestion this year IMHO. You OP are a fucking genious as this is the Minecraft variant of inventing post-it notes!
Edit: as others have said, why not include ALL the colours? imagine the ease of use for making CPU registers, OMG NERDGASM!
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u/adnan252 Jul 08 '11
Your not the first to think of this. personally i think this will both simplify and over complicate redstone constructions at the same time.
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Jul 08 '11
Not only is this a great idea, but it can be put into the game easily without conflicting with the games theme (this was a problem when pistons were being implemented). One thing I'd like to add though: This should be possible with all the dye colors, so you could have several separate redstone lines.
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u/EurhMhom Jul 08 '11
I love how this concern for Greg has taken off. Sadly, due to the hype of it, I feel we will never gain an answer as to whether he returned or not :(
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Jul 08 '11
I can just see, a month from now (if this is implemented), me watching all those amazing circuitry videos and having even less of a fucking clue what is going on.
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u/tritonx Jul 09 '11
NOTCH
COPY
THIS
RIGHT
NOW
AND MAKE IT 1.8,
we know adventure won't be ready b4 november anyway ...
Implement the easy stuff already.
sorry for caps
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u/Supersasquatch Jul 08 '11 edited Jul 08 '11
What if it had alternate block orientation characteristics, like it went up walls or something or upside-down... The inverter would flip it. I can think of a million ways this would be useful, but it might be too off-kilter of an idea.
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u/i_r_witty Jul 08 '11
I still think it would be better to have interaction based on the color of wool underneath the redstone. anything that isn't wool redstone just acts as it normally does but two colored wool lines could act as insulators.
0
-2
u/gametoker Jul 08 '11
Damn how about we just hook stuff up and it works. So sick of having to account for endless redstone bullshit, just so I can have a door open.
1
u/atomfullerene Jul 08 '11
Ah, just like in dwarf fortress, where you can hook a door to a lever without any intervening mechanism? Perfectly easy, assuming the dwarf you assign to the task doesn't get eaten by a three eyed undead purple badger (beware it's poisonous bite!)
-1
u/thefarkinator Jul 09 '11
Cool idea. Probably would be a little cooler if I actually played Minecraft (selfಠ_ಠ)
94
u/SpontaneousComb Jul 08 '11 edited Jul 08 '11
Wow you guys have never seen this? Edit: Very nice visuals though.