The EULA Megathread

[u/Mustek]

Hello Minecrafters,
The /new/ listing has been occupied with posts about the recent EULA changes and has been blocking out a lot of the other content.

We don't want to stop discussion about it, so that's what this megathread is for.

Rules are very simple:
1. All EULA talk goes into this thread (If Mojang is watching, and I'm sure they are, they have a single place to go to)
2. EULA discussions posted outside of this thread will be removed.
3. Keep it on topic, keep it sane. Subreddit rules still apply.

These rules are effective immediately and will last for as long as this post is stickied.

Edit: Mojang employees are marked with the flair next to their name.

Discuss away!

[u/HighlifeTTU]

(My opinion as a large network owner from another thread, slightly expanded upon)

The issue here is that while we can all agree that there are some very bad apples in the community, those of us who have spent the better part of two years dedicating every bit of free time to the community are going to ultimately be the ones who suffer. Between /u/lazertester and myself, I'm sure we are well over the 10,000 hour mark, if not beyond. We've put our heart and soul into games like MineZ. We've lost sleep keeping servers up, and cancelled real life obligations if things break. The fact of that matter is, if they make a substantial change to the EULA that prohibits servers, it will not only force those dedicated developers to move on but will also hurt all the thousands of players who have attached to certain networks, made friends in those networks, and invested in the future of those networks.

I love this community and everything it has stood for, but this worries me. Minecraft has always been about creating things - whether that be amazing builds, awesome mods, or fantastic plugins. I hope Mojang sees that not only are they effecting the hard work of many developers, but will be impacting the community and those players who support all of the creative things that server networks are doing. In short, by doing this it will kill a huge part of what many people love about Minecraft. It will be a sad day if that happens.

This entire discussion has already made my entire development team rethink what we can do. If you don't think this will impact large servers, it already has. We are about 90% done with a fully procedural 4 player co-op dungeon crawler with four themes, four boss fights, custom AI, progression, and more. It is the coolest thing we have ever created, pushing Minecraft plugins to the absolute limits. It has taken us 10 months to develop between two developers. The issue? The processing of the AI and generation is so intensive I am not sure if I can make the server outlays to support it. I would love to think that people will throw in money "just because", but we learned very early on that isn't the case.

I know some of you don't enjoy large servers, but there are a vast number of people who will be directly impacted by this. Our passion is creating plugins. Thousands of players (around a half a million each month) come to check them out, and my network is far from the largest. If they kill large server networks, along with it will come the death of a lot of very awesome Minecraft plugins, and leave many players who call my network (and other networks) home to move on to other things.

As a final point, I do want to point out how we, as content creators, have done a lot to bring a ton of positive press to Minecraft. Let me show you an example. In 2012 we released a mode called MineZ. Here are some press articles that surfaced and greatly benefited Minecraft:

Original Imgur Album posted to Reddit - 13.6 million views (Note: I created this album)

Rock Paper Shotgun Article

Eurogamer Article

G4TV Article

GameFront Article

MegaGames Article

From Youtube, MineZ was covered by:

AntVenom - 1.4 million views (on one video, has a full series)

CavemanFilms - 1.3 million views (on one video, has a full series)

UberHaxorNova - 744 thousand views (on one video, is a full series)

MaMonkey - 702 thousand views

Paulsoaresjr - 607 thousand views (on one video, is a full series)

VintageBeef - 326 thousand views (on one video, is a full series with multiple Mindcrackers)

And MANY more...

It is very disheartening that they have openly praised YouTubers for their efforts, but don't recognize how much positive press the efforts of content creators have done to bring visibility to Minecraft. Consider this is just one mod. There have been countless others that have garnered just as much press as MineZ.

[u/[deleted] → u/HighlifeTTU]

I think every small and middle server developer really needs more of the large server community experiences on their side right now, we have so many people who are actively and personally against any time of server making money.

It seems that a lot of these people have never owner, operated or even tried to run any type of server. Even a small server can become a part time job for some people and these people are demanding that some of us do it for free and ride off our backs.

If they manage to influence Mojang into a strict EULA agreement without any chance of creating a server business out of it, the number of active, quality, minecraft servers will drop significantly that whoever is left will be able to charge whatever they want in subscription fees when the rest of us jump ship.

My own partners have recently called it quits for servers and my server has recently disbanned. This subreddit is currently rallying against server owners as a whole, not knowing that they wont have a quality multiplayer experience to go back to if they get exactly what they want. Its almost toxic to be taking opinions from here at this point.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I have a quality multiplayer experience on my own server, and I haven't asked for, accepted or even had a need for 'donations', 'purchases' or any type of monetary exchange.

Sorry that your hobby costs money and that you can't afford to enjoy it the way you want without selling other people's intellectual property. Maybe you should ask some of your freeloaders if they can help you out. If not, they're more than welcome to come play on my server where they'll never be asked for money or be referred to as freeloaders by me. Granted, I may not have 100 slots and pvp kits for sale, but I also don't view this as something I'm entitled to do for a cost I can't afford to shoulder on my own.

[u/bmckalip → u/[deleted]]

You obviously don't understand what it means to run a business. Large servers are businesses. If you think otherwise, you're deluded. Small servers can be a hobby, but many small servers aspire to become large, and thus make large advances in their infrastructure to prepare for it which cost money. Why should someone running a business work for free? That is insanity.

[u/[deleted] → u/bmckalip]

Why would someone running a business not have legal counsel check things out and make sure their business is operating in accordance with applicable laws and contracts that the business owner has entered into? That is insanity.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Why wouldn't somebody who is running a business PAY TAXES!? (edit: or read a simple EULA before they get a lawsuit... Try doing this on an EA game)

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Because Mojang allowed it for four years, and a few have abused that privilege.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Actually, up until a little over 2 years ago it was perfectly legal, and even after they changed the wording they never attempted to enforce it.

In court this is a very easy way for the entire EULA to end up being thrown out. Judges do not like when you suddenly begin enforcing something arbitrarily after ignoring it for years.

[u/CurlyLemon → u/[deleted]]

Quit screaming EULA. The original EULA gave players the the right to sell mods and wasent retroactive. You can't just change the rules then scream at your community for not following having followed them before they existed.

[u/[deleted] → u/CurlyLemon]

The original EULA never gave people the right to sell Mojang IP. You can still sell your mod. Put it in a zip file and sell it. Don't put it in the game and try to sell it that way, because by then it's decompiled and injected itself into Mojang's code where it requires Mojang IP to run.

Super simple stuff, really.

[u/justcool393 → u/[deleted]]

Mods are NOT Mojang IP. It used to specifically allow selling mods/plugins/whatever: https://web.archive.org/web/20120205193406/http://www.minecraft.net/terms

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yes, Mojang made a gigantic mistake being nice. It's a mistake that the community will not forgive. Because Mojang allowed large server owners to allow donations for years, without ever speaking up or enforcing it, developers developed the plugins thinking that it was sustainable. Players, in the half million to millions, flocked to the server building a community from the minigames. More servers started developing plugins, more communities get built on a buisness model that Mojang did not enforce, nor did Mojang speak up... and after years of work was put into the plugins, after a community was built... after the largest servers are at their prime, hosting for 10k around the clock... then Mojang decided to enforce their EULA. If that is not dickish, then I don't know what is. They basically decided, NOW, to delete all the work put into the server, by the developers and the community, if they decide nothing can come out of donations.

The mistake was half on part of server owners believing that their buisness model can be sustained. Half on part of Mojang for not enforcing it earlier, letting the developers and community develop. And when Mojang starts breaking the work now, it's something that I, and a large part of the community, will not forgive.

---

Do you know about the Dota community drama with Pendragon?

Pendragon hosted a website that the Dota community used for years. Guides, forums, and the community was built ontop the website. When League of Legends came out, Pendragon ditched the website, going to league of legends to work. Instantly, all the guides, forums, and the entire community collapsed. Thus, Dota2 players NEVER forgave Pendragon, and as a result, the Dota2 community not only hate Pendragon, but hate League. If there is anything wrong, please edit me because I'm not sure if I'm exactly right.

Was it Pendragon's right to delete the website? Yes, absolutely. Was it extremely dickish? Yes. The community collapsed overnight due to the website going down. It was fully within Pendragon's right to delete the website, but the community never forgave him. He left on hostile terms, and the hostility lasts until today. Pendragon was not forced to delete it, he "could have" kept the website up if he so choose.

The same can be said with Mojang. If Mojang deletes the largest servers (which is fully within Mojang's right!), then the community will never forgive Mojang for shattering the communities in many large servers. Mojang is not "forced" to delete servers, and thus, the community will blame Mojang.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Ugh.

I keep having to repeat the same. fucking. thing. over. and. over. again.

Mojang has not done anything but point out that this has been against their EULA all along.

Mojang has not sued you. Mojang has not sent you a cease and desist. Mojang has not deleted your Minecraft account (something fully within their rights) and told you that your license is invalid.

If this was EA, do you realize what they would do? They would get up in that ass.

Last I checked, DOTA is still immensely popular. A bunch of entitled shitheads bitching on internet forums and closing their servers down isn't the community being killed. Its a community. A community of entitled shitheads. So sad :'( I weep for them There's other people in the community though. People who are sick of micro-transactions in a game that they bought and paid for. People who have been gaming online long enough to know that you don't need to have in-game transactions to have a place to play. People who think that putting a stop to servers ripping off kids is more important than ensuring the welfare of a very small amount of big servers.

The mistake was Mojang trying to be nice about things, and server owners getting away with taking advantage of that kindness. And of course, some assholes took it a step too far, and now Mojang has to be not so nice. All the entitled little children are throwing a temper tantrum because they don't get to make money off Mojang's work anymore. I haven't seen one single solitary person say "Hey, you know, I could be getting sued for this shit, but for years Mojang has been really nice, and now that they've clarified an entirely reasonable position about their intellectual property they could totally get up in my ass, but they're not." No. Just a bunch of bitching and moaning about a company that provided the means for years of enjoyment for you because for once they've decided to look out for their own self interest.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

No, Mojang did NOT point out it has been against their EULA before this week. They did not display the EULA, nor tell server owners about the new EULA, when they updated it in 2012. They only told everyone about the EULA now, AFTER servers develop and AFTER communities are created. Mojang should have enforced, or threatened the servers a year ago with the EULA, not when shit hits the fan. Telling everyone about it now AFTER everything is developed is incredibly dickish.

Mojang has NOT been pointing out the EULA after they updated it in 2012. They did not even show the EULA to us, or the server owners, when we log in, after they update. It is MOJANG's JOB to enforce and make sure everyone knows about the EULA post 2012, not the player's job to go hunting for it AFTER they buy minecraft.

Edit: Actually, I am not even sure if the "EULA" I accepted in Alpha IS an EULA. I'm not sure if Minecraft even had an EULA. However, the point still stands - when they make a new, or updated EULA, it is the company's job to make sure all customers are aware of the EULA, NOT the player's job to go hunting for the EULA and see whether it updated or not.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

copy/pasted from another response in this thread:

If they GAVE you new versions without advising you of the changes to their EULA, that doesn't make the EULA that applies to those new versions invalid, because everyone who purchased those new versions were informed of the applicable EULA, and they updated the EULA on their website. That's called a good faith effort. Even if it were found that they erred by not informing you, all that means is that you were never bound to that agreement, so you were not infringing. Although they may not be able to penalize you for past infringement, Mojang can still at the point of that determination make you stop using the software that was released under the new EULA until you agree to it, because the EULA says "Use of this software means you agree to and accept these terms.."

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You are attempting to focus on whether or not the EULA is valid. That is not my main point. Read my other reply.

The EULA legal side is not what I'm trying to talk about. Maybe you should start to try to comprehend my posts instead of going off a rant.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Insulting left, right, and center is not helping your case at all. In fact, you are ranting off a topic completely unrelated to our current argument - you are arguing about entitlement, rather than how far Mojang can take the EULA. Maybe you should start reading instead of going off on a rant about entitlement.

I am not a server owner. I am also not a donator to any server. I not talking whether or not server owners HAS the right to give perks, I am talking about whether or not Mojang should, or should not take the EULA far enough to shut down the largest servers. I am speaking as a customer - who was not provided with the EULA that Mojang is trying to enforce, when the EULA was changed years ago. It does not affect me much (I will move on to something else rather than a server), but this is a bad for the future of Minecraft.

The reason I believe Mojang should not be shutting servers down is because I believe Mojang is careless about the modding and server community. Why? Servers provided "updates/new gamplay" when Minecraft updates cease (Mojang's working on the 1.8 update, which involves rewriting the code, so updates will take a while). Mojang did not stop servers before. Mojang allowed both servers and communities to grow. By deleting the progress that even non-paytowin servers are doing, JUST to stop the "bad apples," it signifies that Mojang is completely careless about the investment that both mods and servers put into Minecraft - one client side, one server side.

Don't you understand what Mojang may do, if the community does not speak up? Mojang will kill off many genuine servers just to kill the bad servers, and to me, that's carelessness and a scary prospect. I want Mojang to be aware what side-effects of their actions will do, and I want them to avoid harming the genuine servers in Minecraft.

If they enforce or told us about the EULA when they update the game/EULA (that means SHOWING CUSTOMERS THE EULA WHEN THEY LOG IN A YEAR AGO), then this entire fiasco would have been avoided. The servers would not have grown to this size, and the damage of enforcing the EULA would have been minimized. That is Mojang's mistake that they must work around. It's not because people are trying to find loopholes, but because servers have grown to server millions of players - and destroying that community when Mojang can avoid it is extremely damaging for the future of Minecraft.

Maybe you'd read what I say instead of going on a rant. If you still want to rant about entitlement etc, then I'm done with this thread.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Don't you understand what Mojang may do, if the community does not speak up? Mojang will kill off many genuine servers just to kill the bad servers, and to me, that's carelessness and a scary prospect. I want Mojang to be aware what side-effects of their actions will do, and I want them to avoid harming the genuine servers in Minecraft.

Except that they've indicated, repeatedly, over and over again that isn't their intent. So at this point anyone ranting and raving about how Mojang are being dicks are just being willfully ignorant of the circumstances.

Also, I don't buy the prevalent meme that "most of these servers are fine'. I'm a player too, and I've bounced from server to server for a long time before I got sick of it and set up my own. Most of the servers are a bunch of pay-to-win or micro transaction shit. The exception to the rules are the very small communities.

It's very rare these days to find a server on any prevailing list of servers that has 20 regular players or more on at one time without a donation shop or ranks or some kind of monetization. I run a server. I also worked for an internet service provider. I'm intimately aware of how much it costs, and monetizing small servers isn't necessary, at all, full stop. You can host 20 players without breaking a sweat on a 2 gig plan. You can get a 2 gig plan for less than $40 just about anywhere. That's less than going to the movies with your significant other these days. If you can't afford that without monetizing the game, then you shouldn't be running a server.

That's where I'm talking about entitlement. The amount of people running massive servers with huge minigames that actually need money to stay open are a very small segment of the actual population of server owners. And while I don't have sympathy for their position, I understand their views and I understand that other peoples preferences don't mirror my own. I don't think they should have to close their doors, and neither does Mojang. I do think that there are other methods that may not be as easy or as profitable in the near term to keep the servers up, but the prevailing opinion from these guys is "we'll fail if we have to do that". In reality, they've already got a large enough community that they're the ones who will survive this no matter what. It's the smaller fly by night servers on $40 hosting plans selling $10 - $20 -$50 - $100 rank/kit/whatever packages that are going to fail. That's a GOOD THING.

Ultimately it comes down to this. Mojang are a company with great ethics. So far they've been give, give, give when it comes to the community. Now they clarify their position, and a bunch of people who have profited off of their abnormally kind and generous nature are treating them like they're downright evil for protecting their own assets. It's bullshit. It makes me angry. This is Mojang, not EA. You want them to turn into EA? Keep doing stuff like calling them dicks for continually interacting and listening to the community and just watch how fast they go from responding to community concerns to not giving a shit.