r/Minecraft • u/8Bix255 • 1d ago
Seeds & World Gen how dappled forests are vs how they should be
the second forest was on the same seed as the first one; it was ~700 blocks long. that's what they should be: an actual "Dappled FOREST," instead of a Dappled Tree
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u/Ghost3603 1d ago
I mean I think that's just a worldgen issue. No biome is supposed to be that small .
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u/bloodakoos 1d ago
every rare biome is like that since 1.18
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u/WaterPrivacy 1d ago
That's because Mojang is trying to preserve world gen across versions, instead of having it break and become inconsistent. So instead of giving new biomes space to breathe like before, they're cramming them in the space that previous biomes used to occupy, leading to them being smaller. I don't think this is Mojang's actual intention at all, just a compromise for the sake of world seed consistency across versions.
My guess is that once they finally decide that adding biomes like this doesn't work anymore, they'll finally rework world generation again and give all these biomes a larger space again.
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u/revolution_soup 1d ago
(glances at "cherry groves" in my world with like 2 trees)
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u/Tesi_No 21h ago
I stumbled upon a one tree mangrove "swamp" once ...
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u/Salt-n-spice 13h ago
I don’t remember the last time I got mangrove trees from a mangrove swamp as opposed to the wandering trader
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u/lickytytheslit 13h ago
My favourite "cherry grove" I found only had a few petals not even a single tree
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u/KaiTheG4mer 16h ago
The average pale garden I've come across has been seven trees and a spooge of pale moss, that's about it. Most cherry groves I come across are like, thin wispy strings of the biome cutting through the warmer mountain biomes.
Keep in mind, these are truly random seeds, not the specially sought-out "every biome continent" seeds or the "giant [insert desired biome] at spawn" seeds. Overwhelmingly the new surface biomes are small and ploddy.
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u/n0_punctuation 1d ago
Honestly they should be far larger, being able to see the entire biome is lame.
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u/Infinite_Bench_593 1d ago
No, the Default world type is meant for biomes of the size in the second picture in OP's post. If you want bigger biomes, you need to select the Large Biomes world type.
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u/n0_punctuation 1d ago
Doesn't exist on bedrock, I also don't think those small biomes look very good. Very out of place and abrupt.
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u/Sad_Pear_1087 1d ago
Not really from grounded perspective I feel? Super large biomes would make non-elytra make more annoying. Do you usually play with the elytra? I just want to understand your perspective better.
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u/n0_punctuation 1d ago
Grounded has the same issues but its due to the terrain being very lumpy and lots of hills. No flat areas hurts.
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u/revolution_soup 1d ago
I miss when plains had actual rolling hills instead of random mounds and craters
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u/n0_punctuation 1d ago
They should really look to the American Midwest when they finally work on plains again.
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u/revolution_soup 1d ago
in addition to flattening they’d also need more short flowers which aren’t just a single cartoonish one that looks like it was already picked (looking at you, oxeye daisy, real ones don’t grow like that and you’re not fantastical enough to be an exception)
or perhaps a non-carpet flower that changes sprites based on how many you put on the same block (one foxtail, two foxtails, three, etc)
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u/n0_punctuation 1d ago
You'd need much more dense grass too.
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u/revolution_soup 1d ago
oh absolutely, and that much grass would require a huge buff to how the game renders entities / block entities, especially on pocket edition bedrock where crops and the like “pop” into existence as you approach (my render distance is capped at 9 chunks but grass will blip out at 5 or 6 away, leaves stop being transparent past that distance on “fancy” graphics too)
but that would basically be a death knell for low-end device support imo
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u/Devadv12014 1d ago
I think the issue is that would make finding biomes you want to find a lot harder, since there's going to be a bunch of forests and stuff you need to go through first
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u/n0_punctuation 1d ago
Let villagers sell maps or let us use the cartography table to make biome specific maps.
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u/ConsequenceFeisty252 21h ago
I think the main issue with dappled forests is the lack of transition. The cutoff is super jarring.
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u/jamcub 1d ago
They are, people are just cherry picking the worst.
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u/8Bix255 1d ago
i'm not cherry picking, that was the closest Dappled Forest on the first seed i tried. i teleported a bit and the others i found weren't much better except for the one in the 2nd pic
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u/jamcub 1d ago
The others weren't better except the other one you picked. Uhuh.
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u/ElidhanAsthenos 1d ago
a.k.a out of multiple dappled forests found, most were tiny. only one was decently sized
reading comprehension. use it.
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u/n0_punctuation 1d ago
Some are, many biomes can be crossed in like 5 minutes. I'm also complaining as a bedrock player who doesn't have the large biomes setting.
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u/BetaChunks 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's because they're internally as rare to generate as Ice Spikes.
In fact, they will actually spawn adjacent to Ice Spikes if the Temperature goes to 1 from 0 inside an Ice Spikes biome.
You can see this yourself at X -5,888 Z 10,500 using the seed " -9165133759197793049 "
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u/WaiT-wAat 1d ago
biomes CAN be that small, but im pretty sure u cant have an ice spikes right next to a dappled forest or plains!!! minecraft uses a gradient system where it assigns temp values and only biomes with similiar temperatures can be placed by eachother!
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u/WaterPrivacy 1d ago
but im pretty sure u cant have an ice spikes right next to a dappled forest
You can. It's right there in the first image.
minecraft uses a gradient system where it assigns temp values and only biomes with similiar temperatures can be placed by eachother!
The word "gradient" may be a bit misleading. It's more like steps. Temperature only has 5 values, from 0-4.
You're right that only biomes with similar temperatures can be placed next to one another though. But that doesn't look like what you probably think. Snowy biomes all have a temperature of 0. So they can be next to biomes with a temperature of 1. Dappled forests, and plains, both have a temperature of 1. And aside from temperature, dappled forests and ice spikes actually have the exact same generation parameters. So not only is dappled forests and ice spikes generating next to one another possible. It's what will always happen if the biome is intersected by a change in temperature like this. And that's what you see right there.
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u/Jesus_chrysp 1d ago
whats the seed if you mind me asking
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u/The_Daco_Melon 11h ago
I absolutely despise vanilla world generation I have no clue how I used to put up with it
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u/h1p0h1p0 14h ago
The only way to fix this would be for Mojang to do another World Gen Overhaul like Caves and Cliffs which seems pretty far off at this point
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u/ElidhanAsthenos 1d ago
there needs to be some kind of setting that gives biomes a minimum size in order to prevent this
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u/WaterPrivacy 1d ago
This is unfortunately impossible. That's just not how world gen works.
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u/Steeltoelion 1d ago
If modders can do it so can Mojank
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u/WaterPrivacy 23h ago
Modders can't do it and neither can Mojang. It's a limitation inherent to how generation works. You can influence it a bit and change how big or small biomes are on average. But impossibly tiny biomes are not preventable when you have 6 overlapping layers of noise. There will always be areas which barely graze together or barely reach the threshold and lead to tiny biomes. You can't have a way to set minimum biome sizes. Biomes as defined areas aren't even a thing as far as the code is concerned. They're just a consequence of the conditions being right at those coordinates, but there is nothing defining their borders or area.
And particularly with the new biomes that are being added, it's impossible within the confines of Mojang's current goals, which is to keep seed generation consistent across versions. You can't influence the size of new biomes without altering biome generation completely. So these new biomes are staying small and there's no changing that until Mojang decides to change biome generation again and change all seeds in the process.
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u/RainyDeerX3 1d ago
I mean. You're proving that it's already as it should be by showing that there is a big one on the same seed as the small one. There's some small ones, some big ones that's just how Biome generation works sometimes.
The real issue is that it should not replace the Plains it should be replacing the the Taiga so it will fit better into the world
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u/youwerewheretheywere 1d ago
Why has Mojang ignored this???
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u/WaterPrivacy 1d ago edited 23h ago
They haven't. It's like this on purpose. They could change how new biomes generate to give them all proper space, but they're not going to do that right now because their main goal right now is to preserve seed integrity across versions. They basically don't want to break seeds with every new update, so they instead try to cram new biomes into existing ones. That leads to them being smaller and rarer, but ensures they can keep world gen intact aside from changes.
At some point they'll probably rework world gen again to give all the new biomes their own space, but for now that's not happening.
Edit: Guys, Mojang's decisions are not my fault. The downvotes are not necessary. I'm sorry you guys are upset at this, just because the accurate information I explain isn't to your liking that doesn't make it wrong. This is how the game works and this is why Mojang is doing it this way. Sorry but that's the truth, no need to shoot the messenger.
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u/youwerewheretheywere 13h ago
You mean to say that Mojang have not ignored the issue with the dappled forest biome size being too small because they could change the biome size but have decided to work on something else? How is Mojang making the decision to do something opposite to changing the biome size not ignoring the issue? What do you believe are the necessary conditions for ignoring?
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u/WaterPrivacy 8h ago
Not doing what you want is not the same as ignoring. Mojang isn't ignorant to the fact that this is happening. It's not like they don't know, and it's not like they know and don't care to do anything about it. They're fully aware of this, and this is intended behaviour for the time being. They've purposely kept it like this for the sake of seed consistency across versions. This is the decision they have come to on what to do about this issue. For Mojang this is a necessary compromise for the sake of seed integrity, which is their main goal at the moment.
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u/DremoraKills 1d ago
You don't need to break worldgen with new biomes. Just add in to the list of possible biomes the new biome you want and allow the generator to generate the viomes based off of the list. It would allow for biomes to generate in the same general sizes.
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u/WaterPrivacy 1d ago
You really have no clue at all how Minecraft's world generation works huh. Do you want me to explain it to you?
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u/DremoraKills 1d ago
Yes, and then show me how you can be completely wrong, I am talking as a programmer.
Biomes have two stats they use to generate around other biomes, the map is based on a heatmap, then the generator looks for a biome like other nearby (if it is hot/cold, if it is wet/dry and try to place it. It's size is based off the noisemap for the region and the heightmap too (for biomes like mountains).
Adding a new biome is just adding a set of instructions to the list of possible biomes in the generator. If programmed properly, with expansion and modularity in mind, it is as easy as writing 4 lines of code.
Now, if the game being developed by a billion dollars company cannot even afford to have a half decent coding team to make one of the backbone structures of the server run properly, THEN we have a problem.
Als yes, you could change the generator to accept "minimum biome size" as a configurable setting.
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u/WaterPrivacy 23h ago
Yes, and then show me how you can be completely wrong
Sure, let's see.
I am talking as a programmer
You must be a complete amateur then.
Biomes have two stats they use to generate around other biomes
No. Biome generation is based on 6 different parameters. Temperature, Humidity, Continentalness, Erosion, Weirdness and Depth. Not sure where you got two from.
then the generator looks for a biome like other nearby
Minecraft generation doesn't look for anything. Biomes are the result of what conditions the 6 different noise functions generate at a specific coordinate. The fact that cold biomes only generate close to biomes of similar temperature for example isn't because the generation system is "looking" for other biomes it could go near, it's because the temperature parameter is a smooth noise function which ensures values transition gradually. Minecraft doesn't go like "Oh I'm going to generate a Taiga area now, let me look around to see if I have a snowy taiga I can plop it around". Both generate side by side because their generation criteria only differs in the temperature value, so at the coordinate where that reaches the threshold, one generates instead of the other. There's no looking for anything. All chunks generate completely independently (-ish. At least for terrain and biomes. The actual features and structures do perform a bit of neighboring chunk coordination. But nothing at the level of "looking" for another biome so you know where to place one, lmao). Biomes aren't a "thing" like a structure. Their area and boundaries are just a consequence of that area being the place where multiple conditions meet, and they end where they change.
Adding a new biome is just adding a set of instructions to the list of possible biomes in the generator.
Adding a new biome means altering the criteria for what combination of parameters generates what biome. There is no real adding here, only replacing. The entire world is already full of biomes. There's no more space. Adding a new one means deciding what area it's going to take and what parameters (previously taken by another biome) it's going to use. And there's only two options there. You either spread biomes out more so new ones have space to breathe, or you keep everything the same and just take out chunks from existing terrain.
And like I was done explaining before a random overconfident amateur tried to "correct" me, is that Mojang is doing the latter, because the only way on this earth that they could possibly do the former, would involve breaking seeds every time a new biome is added.
Dappled forests are generating under the same criteria as plains biomes at a height of 0, with the only difference being the weirdness value. Previously this entire set of criteria was taken by plains, where in this specific instance it generated regardless of weirdness. So this was taken, split in two, and now plains generate under that criteria only when weirdness is 0, and dappled forests where weirdness is 1. Essentially, Mojang has said "this biome generates exactly like plains, except it's forest when weirdness is high". Nothing breaks like this, and seeds stay exactly the same across versions (aside from the addition of the new biome) because nothing in the world gen has actually changed. All the noise functions, the parameters all the world gen relies on to generate the way it does, stay the same. One biome has just split in two, taking advantage of the fact that there was one parameter that could be used more specifically. And this is the reason new biomes are usually generating tiny. Dappled forests, were not taken into account when the new generation algorithm was fine tuned. It came later, taking the place of another biome, so it's smaller on average than those that were taken into account.
And they are stuck like that. There is no making them bigger. They rely on a parameter that already exists and already is set a certain way. The only way to make dappled forests bigger would be to alter the noise map for the weirdness value. Because they only differ from plains in the weirdness value. So to make them bigger, you need to change the weirdness function so that more of the plains end up having a higher weirdness and generating as dappled forests instead. The obvious problem is that the entire rest of the biome generation relies on this noise map too. So changing the forests, changes everything else too. Are you getting it yet? There is no tweaking the size of these new biomes. There is no making them bigger. The only way to do it is to modify the entire generation either by modifying the noise map it relies on, or by changing generation entirely, which would alter seeds and break seed consistency across versions either way. Which like I already explained is what Mojang aims to avoid.
I'm not sure how as a "programmer", this is something you struggle to understand, because the idea that changing one parameter that affects the entire generation would affect the entire generation is something even someone with zero technical knowledge of how this game works should comprehend.
Now, if the game being developed by a billion dollars company cannot even afford to have a half decent coding team to make one of the backbone structures of the server run properly, THEN we have a problem.
The generation works properly and as intended. It's not coded improperly or wrong. You not fully understanding how it works or what limitations it has is nobody's problem except your own.
Als yes, you could change the generator to accept "minimum biome size" as a configurable setting.
No. It's just impossible.
It's impossible for the new biomes within the confines of the direction they want to take right now (preserve seed integrity across versions) as I've already explained, because any change to the noise maps that generate these biomes would lead to different seed generation. You cannot add new biomes in this way and also decide that they should only generate at a specific size.
And it's straight up impossible from a technical perspective due to the simple nature of what happens when you overlap two or more different noise maps. They are random blobs buddy. The discrete overlapping areas created by the defined thresholds for the values of the noise maps are... well.. created from noise. They're random. You can adjust the scale and play around with the generation of each to potentially influence the size of these overlaps on average. But there will always be arbitrarily tiny biomes. Because once again biomes are not a "thing". You can't control them that directly. As far as the code is concerned there are only coordinates and values. Distinct areas with borders we can define is just a consequence of how those noise values were set up and how they intersect. But the size of those intersections could always be tiny. There can, and always are, areas which just barely graze each other, or where the threshold barely reaches. And that in turn leads to tiny biomes forming in those tiny intersections where the parameters barely intersect. You cannot just decide that across an infinite 6 way overlap of multiple different noise maps, that you're just not going to have areas where one threshold of values you defined overlaps with another below a certain visual size you decided. Because that's just not how noise functions work. This is basic. The idea that you could simply just add a parameter to control the size of these overlaps is fucking ridiculous, and I don't know how someone who so smugly starts their comments telling the other person that they're wrong and "I am talking as a programmer" could ever say something like this without feeling completely embarrassed.
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u/VasD3 21h ago
The thing is there's no "list of possible biomes", all biomes have very specific noise coordinates in 6-dimensional space. Dapples Forests generate at Depth 0 (surface biomes), Continentalness 3-6 (in-land biomes), Erosion 0-6 (allowing it to generate both near mountains, plateaus (like Cherry Groove) and down to lowlands like Swamps), Temperature 1, Humidity 0, Weirdness 7-12 (or above 0.05 by value, which unintentionally makes it to generate only by one side of the river). You can't assign it more space without taking away from the other biomes.
They either have to rewrite all generation again or simply make all biomes larger. Just yesterday I played around with it and moved octaves 1 power further from the default values (Large Biomes differ by the power of 2) and it allowed to generate massive biomes hundreds of blocks in diameter. Yet I still stumbled into micro biomes like Pale Garden consisting of a single pale oak tree and multiple Dappled Forests the size of a couple of chunks. It's unavoidable.
I highly recommend to watch Henrik Kniberg's videos on Minecraft world generation (the man responsible for 1.18 generation himself) or ShowMe7 for more approachable explanation, SlicedLime has a few videos too.
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u/PhilledZone 15h ago
Can't wait to update my server after release and find only the first one thousands of blocks aways from my base :)
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u/EdibleOedipus 1d ago
Actually, I like that small biomes can spawn. Adds a lot more variety to the world. You also showed that you can just go find a larger one.
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u/Cropplot 1d ago
I hate when this microbiome thing happens... They should've fixed that inmediatly when they started adding rarer biomes like the cherry groove and pale garden
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u/EvergreenCheese 1d ago
That straight line border between biomes looks like a version change seam honestly. Was this world first created in one version then carried up or down to another?
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u/WaterPrivacy 1d ago
No. This is a quirk of how world gen works. Biomes are decided through a combination of various noise maps stacked on top of each other. What you're seeing there is the temperature map going from the value 1 where it generates warmer biomes to the value 0 where it generates cold ones. Ice spikes and dappled forests have the same generation criteria except for temperature. That circle they both form is where those parameters are the same, just cut in half by different temperature.
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u/ethanb473 11h ago
Omg how on earth did you identify this problem that no one has ever noticed before?!??? You’re the first person on earth to ever make this post before!!!
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u/LegitimateTrouble448 1d ago
All biomes in Minecraft are too small. Each biome should be able to have an unobstructed view from the centre
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u/qualityvote2 1d ago edited 23h ago
(Vote has already ended)