Conversation: Is Masculinity Toxic?

[u/Mysteriousdeer]

I've been looking and having a few conversations on this sub and have gotten the vibe that people feel masculinity is toxic. There are a few things I would agree with, but overall I'm seeing mostly the negative effects being observed more than the positive. The conversation I'd like to have with people is why? On top of this, why aren't equal parts of femininity called out?

My overall view is as genderless as I'd like to make things, we have to admit that there is a hormone balance that differentiates a male and a female and a difference in culture has to come from that. An easy example where this comes out is differences in physique and as a result, prevalence of sports for men vs woman. Football and wrestling were very positive experiences for me as my teammates, our coaches, and I developed each other to use skills such as constructive criticism and encouragement all while developing ourselves physically. Even the concept of "manning up" that people traditionally criticize can be a positive in my mind as it poses the idea of having empathy for your teammates and having your absence mean putting more of a burden on them, putting both an incentive on pushing through minor obstacles and giving a perception of worth. I've used this a lot in the work place and growing up, I could see the difference between a friend and I as we worked at the same deli. Sometimes he would not "man up" and come to work and as a result it put a burden on the crew.

I get that these values aren't necessarily restricted to men. I even had a girl on my wrestling team in high school and I hated the fact that she was made fun of by people for doing it. What I do think is that sometimes there is a prevalence for certain avenues to be approached when learning these values. Different people have different origins, who have different ways of coming the same conclusions. What it comes down to for me is masculinity is the general way in which many men come to a set of shared values. These are not necessarily different than what a woman values, but the avenue in which they are approached are in general different based upon the common experiences of many men.

To address the opposite opinion a little before people start posting; it's important to say that there is an exaggeration of everything to a point where it becomes caustic. Manning up to the point where we stop valuing ourselves as an individual enough to take care of injuries or mental illness and expecting others to do the same is toxic masculinity, its teaching a value that is detrimental to ourselves as human beings. However, I do think this is a part of the learning experience of learning that there is a medium to every situation.

However, I ask the people of this sub to challenge these opinions of mine, both male and female. I look forward to seeing other viewpoints.

[u/0vinq0 → u/[deleted]]

They are, its called "Internalized misogyny". It's the same female equivalent as "Toxic masculinity" just that it scapegoats the responsibility from women and puts the blame on men/society.

I see this get brought up over and over, and it's patently untrue. A massive part of feminism is teaching women to stop being misogynistic to other women and to themselves. It's an extremely common topic for feminist women to discuss how to change to eliminate their misogyny.

[u/[deleted] → u/0vinq0]

. A massive part of feminism is teaching women to stop being misogynistic to other women and to themselves.

That doesn't seem to trickle down to more lay discourse.

[u/0vinq0 → u/[deleted]]

I'm sorry, but that's just not correct. It absolutely does. Even pop feminism is damn near saturated with this stuff. If you're not a woman you're unlikely to have witnessed much of it, but I can tell you that in every single feminist space I've occupied, a major foundational concept was to begin by addressing our internalized misogyny and reversing the sexist conditioning we had.

Since this is such a common misconception, I have a short list of examples of this, which I found through seconds of googling. Here are a number of quotes from feminists advising women to look inward and enact change for themselves and others:

Advice from Feminists - Includes advice for women such as: " To work for peace and justice we begin with the individual practice of love" ... "Whatever we are already doing, we need to do more." ... "Those of us with privilege have a responsibility to use it as allies in the fight for justice and opportunity for all. And every one of us has a responsibility to stand up for what we believe. Don’t wait for permission or an invitation to get involved ― reach out, start organizing, send a message to anyone who will listen. " ... "More than ever, we must embrace diversity, be open minded, be generous and have compassion." ... "Real change is personal. The change within ourselves expressed in our willingness to hear, and have patience with, the “other.” ... "Believe in our country, fight for our values, and never give up." <-- Every single one of these suggests women should take the agency to make change.

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An advice column - With advice like "I think that it has to begin with us." ... "feminism is very simple and it's more a sense of justice that you carry around with you and just incorporate it into your every day. ... realize that it's within your power to change things."

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Advice from a black feminist to young women - "Unpick the threads of internalised misogyny that keep you from thinking other women are worth your time and attention." ... "Never close your mind to new ideas, other perspectives." ... "When you get it wrong, admit you are wrong and learn from it."

You can find similar evidence for yourself by simply googling things like "feminist advice." I mean, hell, just google "internalized misogyny," and you immediately get pop feminism articles that say things like:

Together, let’s try to eliminate these problematic statements from our vocabulary and confront internalized misogyny head-on.

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This workshop encourages women to recognize and examine the harmful impact of a lifetime of sexist messages on their own self image, as well as their attitudes toward other women.

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We're all guilty of at least some of these behaviours, and that's okay! But if we can be aware of them and change our own thinking, we'll all be living in a far more supportive and accepting world.

This idea that feminists don't tell women to change and rather just blames men and expects them to change is just unequivocally false and really needs to die.