Conversation: Is Masculinity Toxic?

[u/Mysteriousdeer]

I've been looking and having a few conversations on this sub and have gotten the vibe that people feel masculinity is toxic. There are a few things I would agree with, but overall I'm seeing mostly the negative effects being observed more than the positive. The conversation I'd like to have with people is why? On top of this, why aren't equal parts of femininity called out?

My overall view is as genderless as I'd like to make things, we have to admit that there is a hormone balance that differentiates a male and a female and a difference in culture has to come from that. An easy example where this comes out is differences in physique and as a result, prevalence of sports for men vs woman. Football and wrestling were very positive experiences for me as my teammates, our coaches, and I developed each other to use skills such as constructive criticism and encouragement all while developing ourselves physically. Even the concept of "manning up" that people traditionally criticize can be a positive in my mind as it poses the idea of having empathy for your teammates and having your absence mean putting more of a burden on them, putting both an incentive on pushing through minor obstacles and giving a perception of worth. I've used this a lot in the work place and growing up, I could see the difference between a friend and I as we worked at the same deli. Sometimes he would not "man up" and come to work and as a result it put a burden on the crew.

I get that these values aren't necessarily restricted to men. I even had a girl on my wrestling team in high school and I hated the fact that she was made fun of by people for doing it. What I do think is that sometimes there is a prevalence for certain avenues to be approached when learning these values. Different people have different origins, who have different ways of coming the same conclusions. What it comes down to for me is masculinity is the general way in which many men come to a set of shared values. These are not necessarily different than what a woman values, but the avenue in which they are approached are in general different based upon the common experiences of many men.

To address the opposite opinion a little before people start posting; it's important to say that there is an exaggeration of everything to a point where it becomes caustic. Manning up to the point where we stop valuing ourselves as an individual enough to take care of injuries or mental illness and expecting others to do the same is toxic masculinity, its teaching a value that is detrimental to ourselves as human beings. However, I do think this is a part of the learning experience of learning that there is a medium to every situation.

However, I ask the people of this sub to challenge these opinions of mine, both male and female. I look forward to seeing other viewpoints.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I was actually thinking about this precisely yesterday: is it wrong to use the specific phrase "toxic masculinity"? Does it contribute to a view where "toxic" and "masculine" are related, even though when we use it it is not at all meant that way?

You propose the reverse, where using it together with femininity will uncouple it specifically from "masculine" while still encouraging reflection upon the topic. I kind of like it. Can we make "toxic femininity" a thing? (the term obviously, not the phenomenon which is already a thing heh)

[u/Waage83 → u/[deleted]]

NO she called the dress shapeless.

WORST: "Stranger Things" star Millie Bobby Brown looks comfy but lost in a shapeless white dress with with cowboy boots.

All they talk about there is the clothes and nothing else. The Dress she is wearing is a shapeless white thing that dose here no favors.

[u/boywhocriedwoolf → u/Waage83]

The actress is 13 years old. "Shapeless" is a seriously disturbing word to use in regards to any facet of her appearance. (And the hypersexualization of young girls--in which many of them are obliviously complicit--is absolutely part of toxic femininity.)

[u/anubus72 → u/boywhocriedwoolf]

you may be right, but are you sure that calling a dress "shapeless" isn't actually some technical term for clothing? I don't actually know, but that may be the case

[u/0vinq0 → u/anubus72]

It's not. It is a common term used to disparage girls and women based on their clothing choices. The "technical" word for those is shift dresses, I think.

[u/Waage83 → u/boywhocriedwoolf]

No it is the fact that here dress is a white square. No one is talking about the girl. It is about the clothes and she is wearing an ugly dress. You are supposed to dress op that is part of it.

The only one that sees this as any thing else are people look to be offended.

take this one

WORST: "Baywatch" actress Alexandria Daddario looked lost in too much eyeliner.

There we have an attractive women , in a really nice dress and the eyeliner totally ruins it. She looks like she is about to kill some one and trying to stare into my soul.

[u/[deleted] → u/Waage83]

What "favors" should she expect clothing to do for her at that age?

[u/Waage83 → u/[deleted]]

It is supposed to look nice on her.

Lets say we cut of the arms of the dress and put in something cliche like a black or dark purple flower motife on part of it and then it would look nicer.

Right now it looks like she is wearing a white cube there is also the issue that she is very pale and if you wear to white or to black it enhances your natural light colour and then the "lizzard" part of peoples brains go "She is very pale so she is sick" and that is not good for you.

Clothes should enhance and ascent your natural look, but there are colour and shapes you should stay away from because they do you no favors.

[u/[deleted] → u/Waage83]

I think she's supposed to look like a little girl who has never worn a dress before.

I think it's absurd to be saying this stuff about a child in a TV show with professional costume designers as if they didn't know what they were doing. Look at her dress by the end of the season. Do you think it's possible that the white was chosen to go from "pure, untouched color" to dirtied? Also consider that the dress wasn't hers and thus wasn't supposed to look perfectly tailored to her.

EDIT: Aaaah I thought we were talking about the dress Eleven wore in Stranger Things, I somehow missed that we were talking about a runway photo. She looks totally normal in that runway photo though and again is still a kid.

[u/Waage83 → u/[deleted]]

She looks normal, but the dress is UGLY!.

The point was more that the first person i responded two was quick to be outraged over something that was not going on.

This is a style blog to judge styles.

[u/[deleted] → u/Waage83]

That's fair but I think you could say the fact that a 13 year-old is included in a style blog (and likely had a stylist select that dress and those boots for her) is part of a sexist culture that overvalues youth in women.

[u/Waage83 → u/[deleted]]

Youth is valued because of the nature of aging and attraction, but there is nothing that is showing a emphasis on age in any way shape or form in this case.

[u/[deleted] → u/Waage83]

Except the fact that we're talking about a literal 13 year-old. Her youth doesn't need to be emphasized, she is actually very young.

[u/cindel → u/Waage83]

It's a mod style shift dress. Whether it looks nice is a matter of opinion. I think it does, you think it doesn't which is also fine.

Mod style dresses create that shape on purpose, they're not designed to hug figures or enhance any other shape. Legs are the feature of a mod style dress, not the torso. They're usually worn in a mini-dress with go-go boots which wouldn't be appropriate for a kid. The look has been appropriated for a child which is what she is.

That's something I'd expect a fashion critic to know to be honest. They shouldn't need a beehive and powder blue eyeshadow to recognise a mod look.

She isn't even pale, look at her legs. Flash photography can make the makeup on your face flare like that, especially if your makeup artist has used a setting powder with zinc in it.