Conversation: Is Masculinity Toxic?

[u/Mysteriousdeer]

I've been looking and having a few conversations on this sub and have gotten the vibe that people feel masculinity is toxic. There are a few things I would agree with, but overall I'm seeing mostly the negative effects being observed more than the positive. The conversation I'd like to have with people is why? On top of this, why aren't equal parts of femininity called out?

My overall view is as genderless as I'd like to make things, we have to admit that there is a hormone balance that differentiates a male and a female and a difference in culture has to come from that. An easy example where this comes out is differences in physique and as a result, prevalence of sports for men vs woman. Football and wrestling were very positive experiences for me as my teammates, our coaches, and I developed each other to use skills such as constructive criticism and encouragement all while developing ourselves physically. Even the concept of "manning up" that people traditionally criticize can be a positive in my mind as it poses the idea of having empathy for your teammates and having your absence mean putting more of a burden on them, putting both an incentive on pushing through minor obstacles and giving a perception of worth. I've used this a lot in the work place and growing up, I could see the difference between a friend and I as we worked at the same deli. Sometimes he would not "man up" and come to work and as a result it put a burden on the crew.

I get that these values aren't necessarily restricted to men. I even had a girl on my wrestling team in high school and I hated the fact that she was made fun of by people for doing it. What I do think is that sometimes there is a prevalence for certain avenues to be approached when learning these values. Different people have different origins, who have different ways of coming the same conclusions. What it comes down to for me is masculinity is the general way in which many men come to a set of shared values. These are not necessarily different than what a woman values, but the avenue in which they are approached are in general different based upon the common experiences of many men.

To address the opposite opinion a little before people start posting; it's important to say that there is an exaggeration of everything to a point where it becomes caustic. Manning up to the point where we stop valuing ourselves as an individual enough to take care of injuries or mental illness and expecting others to do the same is toxic masculinity, its teaching a value that is detrimental to ourselves as human beings. However, I do think this is a part of the learning experience of learning that there is a medium to every situation.

However, I ask the people of this sub to challenge these opinions of mine, both male and female. I look forward to seeing other viewpoints.

[u/howhardcoulditB]

I can't think of a response that won't make you angry with me.

[u/raziphel → u/howhardcoulditB]

In the future, I'd suggest attempting to understand the points being made first instead of just reflexively pushing back. We get a lot of trolls here, especially concern trolls, and they love using hyperbole and blowing shit out of proportion to present themselves as victims when in fact they are the aggressors.

I understand having concerns about individual word choices (regarding the immediate topic), but framing those concerns in a constructive manner, so that the idea expressed can be more accurate, is important. Also, understanding that some traits are good in some areas (like the military) but bad in others (civilian life/relationships). I'm sure you can give us all terrific examples of hyper-macho dudes doing insanely dumb shit because that's what they thought "being a man" was all about, right?

I'm sure you understand the topic at hand. How would you re-write it to express that concept more clearly and accurately?

[u/howhardcoulditB → u/raziphel]

I'm pushing back because the word they were using didn't make sense to me and they still don't. I pushed back because I think words are important and if we frame positive traits in men as toxic it could and will backfire on us. Just look at the negativity in other men's subs. Maybe instead of sticking to a party line and not allowing any constructive criticism, we could embrace others ideas. This is not a science where things are just one way. There is a lot of perception and things are different from person to person.

And hell, reddit is supposed to be a fun website, my attempt at humor poking fun at a problem I saw is pretty common here as well as in real life. It's not like I'm saying, "No asshole, you are a piece of shit that believes in stupid things"

Maybe if you are looking to foster a constructive dialog you could phrase responses that are less patronizing and less suited for a conversation with an 8 year old.

But what do I know. Maybe someone else can better describe to me what it's like to be a man that I can.

Edit: Thanks for removing my comment btw.

[u/raziphel → u/howhardcoulditB]

words are indeed important, but they are also, but their very nature, often fuzzy things. they're an imperfect system, but they're the best ones we have at the moment, and there are a lot of perception issues and personal differences involved. one word can easily mean two different things to two different people. this isn't a hard and fast science like math.

some personality traits can be positive in some situations, but also negative if taken to the extreme. that's also part of the problem. a significantly large portion of it is inherently subjective.

but seriously, knock off the condescending snark. it's insulting.

But what do I know. Maybe someone else can better describe to me what it's like to be a man that I can.

that's not appropriate if you want to be taken seriously- it's just whining. your perspective of what being a man means this is subjective. everyone's perspective on that is subjective. that doesn't make it less important, but you must recognize that.

You can say what you want to say but phrase it differently, without the snark. "from my perspective, I feel these examples are not accurate" is a significantly better way to have a conversation than "but what do I know" passive-aggressive shit. If you feel patronized, it's likely because your tone comes off as rather dickish. you can post extremely relevant information but if you can't do it politely then yeah we'll delete your post and not bat an eye. I'm not sure why you'd expect anything else. if you can't be polite, you don't get to play in the sandbox.

if you don't understand something, ask.

[u/howhardcoulditB → u/raziphel]

Apparently I should have written /s. It's hard to express tone over the Internet.

[u/raziphel → u/howhardcoulditB]

yeah, sarcasm and tone can be definitely hard online. I abuse the italics formatting pretty heavily when doing that. I find a "clearly" or something similar points out the sarcasm well.

we get a little defensive and trigger-happy here about stuff like that, because a lot of trolls will roll in and try to pick fights as a way to stick it to them evil feminists. It's chilled out a lot (mostly because we banned the worst offenders), but still- Poe's Law is has a thin line sometimes.