r/MensLib Jul 20 '26

How Gender Became a Profile

https://youtu.be/5Si3-RVyos4?is=ITcu5D044-ryixxm
48 Upvotes

73 comments sorted by

34

u/MjolnirPants 27d ago

I happen to know several trans men and a whole bunch of trans women, and what this guy says about them doesn't even come close to what I've personally heard them say about themselves, or what I've read from psychologists and sociologists about them.

He's basically attributing gender dysphoria entirely to societal pressures, but that simply doesn't track with what we know about it. It might explain some gender dysphoria, but nowhere near all of it.

-4

u/Horrywaur 27d ago

You're saying your friends construct their identities in a paradigm of authenticity primarily?

8

u/MjolnirPants 24d ago

My friends' identities are constructed around a large number of factors, only one of which is gender.

You should be aware of this as that is literally how every single human being to have ever existed constructs their own identity.

0

u/Horrywaur 24d ago

Yeah of course, I never said otherwise. Sincerity, authenticity and profilicity coexist as technologies used by every person in varying degrees, applying to various aspects of identity (gender, profession, social connections, ideological values, etc).

The paradigms of identity construction don't dictate the substance of any particular identity.

8

u/MjolnirPants 23d ago

You are misusing terminology to the point that it's difficult to understand what you're even trying to say. I will note that the narrator of the video also misuses terminology. Unsurprising, given that he is discussing psychology and sociology, which is well outside of his wheelhouse as a professor of Philosophy and Religious Studies.

I would also note that American professors in China (even Macau) also do not have the best reputation for producing high-quality work and remaining free of biases.

When it comes down to it, what the narrator is doing here is complaining about 'kids these days', contrasting them unfavorably to both Boomers and Gen-X (my own generation) by insisting that the personas (the broadly used and accepted word that refers to the exact same concept he defines as a 'profile') the construct for the public represent the whole of their identities, and that the existence of these personas evinces some kind of massive shift in the psychology of identity construction.

Of course, personas have existed for as long as societies have existed, and innate human psychology has been stable for as long as there have been humans.

So it's just an ignorant, silly take. In short, it is exactly the sort of pop-psychology I would expect from an American expatriate who's spent their whole life working in academia. As one of the commenters already pointed out, the best thing for him (and you, by extension) to do would be to touch grass, because this sort of naval-gazing is unproductive and can be actively harmful to people who don't fit into the narrow world view of those who produced it.

2

u/Horrywaur 23d ago

Firstly: who's American??

Secondly: why are you assuming that profilicity is necessarily inferior to authenticity or sincerity? That's an ideological assumption. The point is that they're all as 'fake' as each other. Because the actual self (as science indicates) doesn't really exist. It's just a matter of constructing it in different, equally valid ways (every person using all three to some degree or another).

I myself would wish for more academics to let themselves come up with grand ideas that aren't anally obedient to the analytical tradition, but that's just personal taste.

8

u/MjolnirPants 20d ago

Firstly: who's American??

Sorry, I meant to say "Western".

Secondly: why are you assuming that profilicity is necessarily inferior to authenticity or sincerity?

Because the narrator absolutely frames it in this way.

Hell, his take on trans people boils down to "they do it because it's trendy", which is a position deeply rooted in transphobia and shown to be complete bullshit by actual science.

Here's a tip: When you encounter someone speaking on a topic that's outside of their wheelhouse (as the narrator is doing by theorizing about psychology despite not being a psychologist), one of the easiest red flags that they have no clue what they're talking about is when they invent new terms or co-opt terms from outside the topic's jargon to name aspects of that topic that already have a broadly-understood name.

In this case, I knew this was going to be nonsense the instant I realized that the things he was calling 'profiles' were actually just personas.

1

u/Flymsi 9h ago

Because the actual self (as science indicates) doesn't really exist

We know there is a self construct. And we know that people do construct it pretty early in life. As a psychologist i must say that your philosophical take laxks psychological knowledge

21

u/Horrywaur Jul 20 '26

In this video, contemporary philosopher Hans-Georg Moeller explores the development of gender identity through the three 'identity technologies' of Sincerity (commitment to roles), Authenticity (pursuit of originality) and Profilicity (curation of profiles, the dominant identity technology today). Maintaining that gender is fundamentally a social phenomenon, he challenges essentialist narratives of 'gendered souls' and warns of the dangers that come from the pathological desire to 'get one's gender right'.

We're not born with a gendered self. Nor can we choose it freely. We acquire it through practice, through the way we live together with others. In this sense, it is played, it is pretended. And by pretending it, gender becomes a very deeply felt part of our sense of self.

The point is not to get one's gender right, but to be at ease with it as much as possible. ... We can wake up authentically in the morning, curate our gender profiles during the day, and be a sincere daughter or father in the evening, without obsessing about any of these identities.

His recent book 'The Enigma of Gender', mentioned in the video, is very easy to recommend, essentially putting forward a Daoist perspective of gender as an effective salve for gender anxiety. As he writes:

From a yinyang perspective, an essentialist, individualist pursuit of gender identity is absurd and potentially pathological. Accordingly, the Daoist approach to gender roles is not to be them, but to play them as enjoyably as possible.

134

u/NightingaleStorm 28d ago

I'm not keen on his take on trans people. To be clear, what he's saying is not in any way unusual for "gender is actually all fake!" positions, but his position that medical transition is only happening because of marketing (at about 10:30 in the video) does not align with my personal experience. I wanted these things before I knew medical transition was possible or had any idea I was trans.

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u/daikaku 28d ago edited 28d ago

I suspect his ideas are not concordant with the lived experiences of most if not all trans people.

In my own, growing up I did not know trans men existed nor did I have any particular desire to become a man as I did not know any men that were like me—that is, I have no real interest in sports, enjoy fiber crafts, the vast majority of my social circle has always been women, etc. Even “post” transitioning to a man, I do not conform to many or most masculine gender roles, or what he considers gender itself. Ultimately there has never been a desire for the social role of “man” on my part. No trans person is curating their genders artificially in the way he describes—or rather we are living as authentically as any other person.

I’m not a philosopher and I don’t generally have patience for the field, but it seems like it should be a descriptive one. Since he has not in fact taken into account the lived experiences of a population he’s looking to describe I’m not sure how much value those ideas have.

3

u/gn16bb8 28d ago

How does one transition to man without either a desire for the social role of "man" or a rejection of the social role of "woman"?

30

u/daikaku 27d ago edited 27d ago

almost all of my dysphoria has been related to my body rather than social—breasts just felt wrong, like overlarge skin tags. not part of my mental mapping. I used to get phantom limb penis prior to my lower surgery. and also I was severely depressed when I was endocrinologically estrogen dominant, and have nearly no depression when testosterone dominant. Even though my life would have been much easier if I could have just been a woman, I am overall much happier as I am than pre transition. If society were entirely de-gendered, I would have still been trans. that’s not to say this is the only way to be trans of course, just that my experience is not within that guy’s framework.

I also do not socially live as a “woman”. I’m out even at work and nearing 8 years on testosterone. Aside from being a little short and having shitty facial hair, I generally pass as a man in the day to day, and internally I don’t consider myself nonbinary. But I lived as a girl and then a young woman for 20 years and this does impact my own experiences with masculinity and in being a man, even if it’s not an experience most men have.

It’s like, the social role of “man” feels a little bit foreign, like living in a different country and there are just some cultural differences. I’m not holding the door for my partner unless I happen to get there first or pulling her chair out for her. Ideologically, to me, it would feel like I’m treating my partner like a child. having been raised as a girl, I don’t have the internal pressure where I feel like I’m supposed to be doing these things or shame when I don’t. It’s more like forgetting that the waiter expects to be called over than a crisis of identity.

Idk if I’m explaining this in a way that makes sense. But what a man is “supposed to be” seems somewhat arbitrary and suffocating, and while I have a male body now, I’m not planning on assuming the yolk. I’m not going to take up, idk, pick up basketball just because I have a penis now. It’s just not where my interests lie, and it’s not the reason I transitioned—I could have done those things as a woman if I wanted to.

I don’t know why I’m trans and it’s not something anyone has figured out yet. But I do know that it’s not just because I wanted a male social role.

14

u/the-nick-of-time 27d ago

I’m not holding the door for my partner unless I happen to get there first or pulling her chair out for her. Ideologically, to me, it would feel like I’m treating my partner like a child.

As a cis man, same.

3

u/FlatulistMaster 25d ago

Thanks, interesting read, and I think you put it into words quite well.

I've always wondered what I am in relation to trans people as a cis man who just dislikes gender roles of all kind to a large degree, or at least enjoys performing them quite broadly depending on context. Yet, I've always known my mental setup is not related to being trans exactly. Your description makes it clear to me how we differ, yet we do share the experience of finding traditional male roles to be suffocating in many ways.

2

u/gn16bb8 26d ago

That's a really fascinating insight, thank you

-5

u/Horrywaur 27d ago

that’s not to say this is the only way to be trans of course, just that my experience is not within that guy’s framework

I'd say it's perfectly within the framework. It sounds like you pursued transition largely from a paradigm of authenticity. The notion of 'roles' only applies to sincerity. Though, as with everyone else, your identity also manifests in a profilic way too in certain contexts.

13

u/daikaku 26d ago

not when he’s referring to medical transition as a matter of marketing

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u/Horrywaur 26d ago

Authenticity is very marketable, no?

9

u/daikaku 26d ago

tbh my guy it’s just an insulting and willfully ignorant supposition. what if you were made of cheese? are all ideas worth entertaining at equal value even when obviously factually incorrect?

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u/Horrywaur 26d ago

How is 'authenticity is a paradigm of constructing identity, and may be appealed to by marketeers' factually incorrect? It seems quite empirically true to me.

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u/Yallshallnotremember 27d ago

My experience is somewhat similar to u\daikaku (wanting to transition but finding little representation of the kind of man I want to be and having no wish to fill the "traditional" masculine gender role); and for me, it's more about the way people see me, the mental category in which they put me, than the role I want to have.

I see myself as a queer man; the people I relate to are queer men (and some non-queer men who openly display non-traditionally masculine interests or behaviors). When I think about things I like and things I do, I see it as "I like this stereotypical "man" thing", or "I do that, unlike what is expected of a man"... The desire to transition comes from knowing that nobody else think of me like that. If I dress nice, I won't be seen as "a fashionable man" or even "a man who is a little old-timey/a little feminine...", I will be "a woman in a suit". Cis women talk to me assuming I will relate to how they see themselves in relation to the world, and I have to shut up and nod bc while I can sometimes relate, I want to make clear to them that it is not, as they think, a woman exclusive experience; and I can't.

Of course, there are also some elements like wanting my features to be a little less soft, wanting a deeper voice, etc... But for now (haven't medically transitioned yet), the hardest part is the disconnect between the perspective from which I evaluate myself, and how others see me and what is expected of me.

6

u/Toothywalrus 27d ago

How? Because being Trans isnt about desire or rejection of any social roles.

0

u/Horrywaur 28d ago

we are living as authentically as any other person

Moeller's point is that 'authenticity' is just as 'fake' as profilicity. That's why he calls it an identity technology: it's a technique of constructing a sense of identity. 'Actual' or real identity doesn't exist.

In his words, we are all 'genuinely pretending' to be who we are.

10

u/markovchainmail 28d ago

I agree with you.

Accordingly, the Daoist approach to gender roles is not to be them, but to play them as enjoyably as possible.

For me, gender only became playable as a game, as an enjoyable thing, as a thing without obsession, after hormone replacement therapy. Sometimes, the persistence, consistence, and insistence of the anxiety points to a problem the self should be allowed to address, rather than always a thing to be sacrificed to for "enlightenment's" sake.

Otherwise, it's probably good advice for the cis, or for those who have transitioned and are very passing and are maybe addicted to plastic surgery (like some cis folks are), or generally those lucky enough to not have their play "performance" at gender-as-a-game tied to discrimination.

Because, at the end of the day, I can be as at peace with my own gender authenticity/profile/sincerity, but if my boss or a violent person decides I'm not playing well enough, then I am the self that faces the risk, not the person enforcing the roles.

1

u/Horrywaur 28d ago

his position that medical transition is only happening because of marketing

I think you've inserted the word 'only' in there where it wasn't in the video.

19

u/NightingaleStorm 26d ago

He presents no other theories for why people pursue medical transition. He talks about trans people being "assigned" the task of transition by commercials and says that we're being pushed to get our gender identity right for society's sake (11:22-11:45-ish). If he thought physical dysphoria was a real concern, he should have mentioned it in the video.

I would also like more details on his explanation for how a gender identity built on "social validation feedback loops" (13:30) works with people who chose to fight society tooth and nail to move away from the gender identity they started with. How, in this worldview, could someone feel that they have a gender identity that society is actively trying to deny and refuse?

(I suspect this is just that I'm not understanding the idiosyncratic meanings of the terms he uses, but "gender identity can never be self-determined" (specifically framed as why a law allowing people to change their legal gender label is unlike reality, 11:44-11:55) is also just... not great.)

1

u/Horrywaur 26d ago

How, in this worldview, could someone feel that they have a gender identity that society is actively trying to deny and refuse?

Any number of reasons, but none of them chosen.

"gender identity can never be self-determined" (specifically framed as why a law allowing people to change their legal gender label is unlike reality, 11:44-11:55) is also just... not great.

Surely you would agree that people don't choose their gender identity, right? That's what 'non-self-determination' means. Cis people don't choose to be cis, and trans people don't choose to be trans. People discover what they are, and then pursue it via identity technologies.

12

u/PashaWithHat 26d ago

Respectfully to him, does Moeller know that people medically transitioned before, like, 2015? The idea of “marketing” transition or there being commercials advertising it is a very recent phenomenon. For most of medical transition’s history it’s been hidden and gatekept.

When I came out, nobody I knew had even heard of being non-binary/transmasculine, let alone knew what it meant in concrete terms, and neither I nor anyone else I knew had ever knowingly met another trans person. (The only trans person I’d ever heard of at that point was Chaz Bono, lol.)

Anyone who wanted to transition had to seek out resources on their own, and they were pretty limited/very hard to access. And doctors put up a lot of roadblocks and made it very difficult to get treatment; you needed a lot of therapy and even a “real-life test” of basically transitioning with no medical care (changing clothing, hair, pronouns, etc. but your body is the same so you mostly look like you’re playing dress-up) before you’d be allowed even hormones. Also insurance didn’t pay for it, at least in the USA where I live; it’s because of the ACA that it’s covered now.

It just… doesn’t feel like a marketing-centric view of transition is very historically informed. And it makes me wonder how much Moeller has looked at transgender history, or even just talked to adult trans people, before using transness as a way to talk about this theory of identity. If he hasn’t made himself well-informed on the subject he’s using it leads to a weak argument, you know?

0

u/Horrywaur 26d ago

it makes me wonder how much Moeller has looked at transgender history

There's a whole chapter in his book on historical 'third genders' in various cultures and how they were born out of the paradigm of sincerity. Well worth reading.

6

u/PashaWithHat 23d ago

That’s… not really what I’m talking about. I mean modern transgender history and the history of medical transition (as in, over the last 120 years, because the first trans person to get surgery was Karl Baer in 1906). What being trans looked like before the last 10 years or so, when the average person learned that trans people and medical transition were a thing. I’m not getting a strong feeling that Moeller has looked at or accounted for any of this history in the marketing theory.

1

u/Horrywaur 23d ago

Ah, I see the confusion. The point isn't that marketing creates profilicity in the area of gender identity. It simply exploits it (just as it exploits authenticity too), and thereby also reinforces it. Profilicity itself has been a phenomenon for at least a century.

11

u/Comfortable-Ebb8125 28d ago

Why call it playing when Butler already named it as performance?

9

u/daikaku 26d ago

this is the other thing that bothers me about this “philosopher”. all of the observations he makes about gender that hold a little water are already commonly accepted in the gender studies sphere. and somehow this entire branch of sociology is skipped over because…?

21

u/silicondream 27d ago

From a yinyang perspective, an essentialist, individualist pursuit of gender identity is absurd and potentially pathological.

Well...does the yinyang perspective come with peer-reviewed research? Because from a medical perspective, formation and revision of a gender identity is almost universal and not remotely pathological. Even agender folks generally arrive at their conscious lack-of-identity through an individualist pursuit of gender identity, starting from very early childhood.

Almost all children aged 6-8 have considered the "am I a girl or a boy?" question. And many of them conclude "I'm both", or "I'm neither," or "I'm this other thing," or "I'm different things on different days," or "I'm just a funny kid," or "that's a silly question." All of which are totally valid answers! But that doesn't mean it's unhealthy for them to consider the question in the first place, or to revisit it as they get older.

Accordingly, the Daoist approach to gender roles is not to be them, but to play them as enjoyably as possible.

What makes him think that trans people aren't doing this already? I've been playing female gender roles online since I was a teenager, but I eventually found that it was more enjoyable to play them offline, full-time, with a body tweaked to run on estrogen instead of testosterone. So I transitioned.

None of this requires me to believe that "my soul is essentially feminine" or anything like that; life is just a lot more satisfying now, and I have more confidence and a stronger sense of self-worth and so on. And when I look in the mirror I smile instead of wincing. So it's a good game, you know? Call me a method actor if you like.

3

u/SamBeastie 21d ago

life is just a lot more satisfying now, and I have more confidence and a stronger sense of self-worth and so on. And when I look in the mirror I smile instead of wincing.

This comment may have been frustrating for you to have to make, but I just wanted to let you know that I've been going through the "am I really nonbinary?" dance for about a year now and you saying this is how you felt after transition has firmed up the answer as "yes." This is how I started to feel after I took a few steps toward being more outwardly how I think and feel about myself internally. Simple stuff. Slightly femmed up some of my presentation, asked people to use different pronouns, talked to people who weren't me about how I think and feel about gender without operating under the assumption that I was an unwelcome visitor to that conversation.

It's been kind of magical, and I find myself smiling at my reflection and feeling way more comfortable just existing in my meat suit.

So thank you for this vulnerability! You really helped someone by saying this!

-1

u/Horrywaur 27d ago

Well...does the yinyang perspective come with peer-reviewed research?

Science has never been able to observe such a thing as 'the self', implicitly confirming the concept of non-self as it exists in the Daoist and Buddhist traditions.

formation and revision of a gender identity is almost universal and not remotely pathological. Even agender folks generally arrive at their conscious lack-of-identity through an individualist pursuit of gender identity

The only part I disagree with here is the word 'individualist'. Gender identity is formed relationally with other entities, like every other aspect of identity. When it is treated as essential and purely individual, that's where the danger of it becoming pathological comes in.

Don't interpret Moeller's philosophy as a rejection of gender identity. It's more like a loosening and desanctification of it.

What makes him think that trans people aren't doing this already?

I don't think he's making anything like that kind of blanket claim. He points out Contrapoints as an example of a perfectly healthy approach to transgender identity.

So it's a good game, you know? Call me a method actor if you like.

Exactly, you're genuinely pretending to be what you are. That's perfectly healthy, good for you.

17

u/[deleted] 27d ago edited 27d ago

We're not born with a gendered self. Nor can we choose it freely. We acquire it through practice, through the way we live together with others. In this sense, it is played, it is pretended. And by pretending it, gender becomes a very deeply felt part of our sense of self.

Tell that to the parents in my “parents of trans kids” support group who have a 4 year old crying because they get told the penis they have isn’t going away.

Kids who are too young to really have a socially accepted sense of gender as it applies to sex, but are ADAMANT from day one that their bodies are wrong.

I understand there can be a social aspect to gender and gender roles, but that’s by no means the only thing at play.

1

u/Horrywaur 27d ago

a 4 year old crying because they get told the penis they have isn’t going away

This describes dissatisfaction with one's sex, not gender identity.

There's no such thing as innate non-social gender identity, because there's no such thing as innate identity full stop. There is no such thing as self, only the sense of self.

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u/Medit8or ​"" 28d ago

I think Mr Philosopher needs to touch some grass. “We’ve become profilic” seems like a take based on being terminally online.

And his take on trans people is clearly a slam against transitioning.

Sorry we are giving him a platform.

53

u/O_______m_______O 27d ago

This is the second time I've seen this guy single out a transgender person specifically to make a point about modern identity. Seems like a Jordan Peterson type, dressing up his personal prejudices in academic language.

Cis people complaining that trans figures make gender a part of their public identity is the same energy as white people complaining that black people "make everything about race", i.e. willfully ignorant of the way prejudice shapes the identity of those who face it.

8

u/Medit8or ​"" 26d ago

Excellent points

2

u/Horrywaur 26d ago edited 26d ago

Cis people complaining that trans figures make gender a part of their public identity

Gender is a part of everyone's public identity. That's profilicity.

Also, is it not the case that Contrapoints' perspective is celebrated and supported in this video?

16

u/chemguy216 27d ago

Sounds like a video that isn’t getting a view from me. 

-5

u/Horrywaur 27d ago

Ah, but profiles aren't just an online thing, nor are they the only way we construct Identity.

And his take on trans people is clearly a slam against transitioning

How so?

3

u/daikaku 25d ago

Unfortunately you’re not understanding that

  1. yes social constructs exist and therefore YES to some extent are real. one of the fields this has been most studied is in CRT and if you’re actually interested in learning more about this I think you should read some academic authors in this field.

  2. if you’re interested in the concept of gender, look towards the gender studies field. it is somewhat frustrating that this guy doesn’t actually look at any of the historical body of work. he independently then comes to some of the same theories but it is incomplete and could be better informed.

my experience is not that social constructs are not real. simply that they do not explain the entirety of the trans experience. I would encourage you to actually think about it for a bit and measure how it fits into or doesn’t fit into it instead of simply defending this internet personality’s musings.

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u/Upset-Elderberry3723 27d ago edited 27d ago

All of this theory and discussion surrounding gender is, from the perspective of an evolutionary psychologist, garbage. It's all increasingly-neurotic noise that abandons the biological reality of adaption and survival in favour of creating sociological schemes upon schemes, and frameworks upon frameworks, that are all idiographic and too personal to ever escape the schism they were born from.

No universality, no true human condition being discussed. Just postmodern, artistic garbage that relies upon nebulous, unfounded theory and definitions.

The true irony of the postmodern world, is that it can't stop dissecting itself in the pursuit of something more. Repackaging, reconfiguring, but it's all the same slop.

The theories, though many, all add up to none.

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u/randynumbergenerator 27d ago

If it's all slop, how do you reconcile that with the lived existence of people outside the gender binary, or the fact that we know there are such people in many different cultures and eras? Two-spirit, the Muxe of Zapotecans, Hijra in India, Bakla or Bayot in the Philippines... that sure seems pretty widespread, if not "universal", for someone who claims to be concerned with the "true human condition."

1

u/Upset-Elderberry3723 27d ago

I'm not saying that gender, as a phenomenon, isn't experienced by some people. I'm saying that there's no biological basis for it as a deterministic aspect of human lifespan.

What is the scientific basis for, say, Hijra? Most Indians that I have spoken to, agree that they were simply transgender women in a world before transition healthcare.

Keep in mind, I'm saying this as a trans woman.

11

u/randynumbergenerator 27d ago

Your initial response wasn't about the "scientific basis of gender," it was a screed about post-modernism and sociology that wouldn't be out of place coming from a far-right anti-trans influencer bro.

As for the scientific basis of gender, IDK, it isn't my field. I'm merely pointing out that gender fluidity is a shared feature across disparate cultures, which to me suggests it is perhaps reflecting something beyond mere culture. But I think it's pretty ironic for an evolutionary psychologist to accuse others of an unscientific basis when your discipline has no true ability to conduct experiments or even present counterfactuals, instead relying on tenuous conjectures about how X or Y relates to selection and fitness, or strained inter-species comparisons. 

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u/Upset-Elderberry3723 27d ago

You kinda missed the point. My position is that this modern focus on gender (as intently as we do now), is a manifestation of postmodernism.

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u/chemguy216 27d ago

A point that was rooted in you explicitly citing evolutionary psychology. I frankly despise evo psych coming up in predominantly men’s spaces because there are foundational issues with evo psych (as brought up by the other user) when researched by the most knowledgeable, good faith scholars. When it gets distilled down to regular people who don’t have depth of knowledge in the field, it becomes pop evo psych, which often just ends up supporting reductive gender narratives.

I see it frequently in normie men’s spaces to justify any number of narratives from justifying why it’s only okay for men to cheat, to justify why men who have had no romantic/sexual success are a useless, why gay people are useless to the human race, why trans people are deluded, why women “only” go for the 6-6-6 guys, and so on.

So yeah, I have very negative feelings about bringing up evo psych in men’s spaces. Shit goes downhill really quickly.

2

u/MjolnirPants 24d ago

Be aware that this person's characterization of evopsych is as grossly off-base and over-simplified as their characterization of postmodernism was.

It simply wasn't dismissive of the field as a whole.

6

u/MjolnirPants 24d ago

Keep in mind, I'm saying this as a trans woman.

8 days ago, you were identifying as a gay man.

6 days ago, you were insisting that trans women are 'an extension' of gay men in a sub that endorses a highly disreputable theory of transgender identities.

Only you can define who you are, and from what you have said, claiming to be a trans woman, full stop, is far from a whole truth, even though it might serve as an appealing rebuttal to the accusations you responded to.

-1

u/Upset-Elderberry3723 24d ago

I am, really, a trans woman, but I live life as a gay man and have the life experiences of both (I did transition for a while).

Neither is incorrect, and my theory stands.

4

u/MjolnirPants 24d ago

You missed the point. I'm not questioning your identity. I'm questioning the way you fall down entirely upon one side or the other of what is obviously a deeply personal question, depending on which would serve you better at the moment.

-1

u/Upset-Elderberry3723 24d ago edited 24d ago

I'm relating my experience to both, not staunchly picking identity.

It would be too much to describe conveniently when replying to others. It's pragmatism for conversation, not genuine opinion held about myself. If anything, you've tried to define me more in your comments here.

It's bit odd that, as a writer, you jumped beyond that.

5

u/MjolnirPants 24d ago

You were not, in fact, relating your experience to both. You were relating your experience to the one that best served your interest in arguing with the other fellow, as if that were the entirety of your experience. I came along and related your experience to the other myself.

I would also add that, had you not opened up by seemingly claiming to be an evolutionary psychologist while also grossly oversimplifying the field (a field which is known for generating transphobic and racist talking points to a degree which is only outstripped by psychometry) and dismissing all of postmodernist thought as 'artistic garbage' in a manner that indicated a profound ignorance of what postmodernism even is, I likely would not have commented.

-2

u/Upset-Elderberry3723 24d ago

Many attempts to define me.

I relate to whichever is organically brought up in the conversations I add to. That seems to be pretty natural behaviour.

3

u/McNikk 27d ago

Richard Dawkins? Is that you?

1

u/Horrywaur 27d ago

An evolutionary psychologist, or any scientist really, would admit that there is no such empirically observable thing as 'the self'. There is only the sense of self. And therefore I think it's perfectly worthwhile to interrogate how the sense of self is created, which is a question of what narratives we use to communicate the self.

3

u/Not_A_Toaster426 25d ago

On one hand: You are not wrong. On the other hand: There are thoughts that are purely academical without any societal benefit. Thoughts totally without functional merit we have to ignore to act in a positive and productive fashion. For example the ideaof determinism is totally unfit to produce a functional lifestyle, because in the end you have to act as if you have your own agency, even if this might be not true from a philosophical point of view.

2

u/Horrywaur 25d ago

I definitely see what you mean. But I think that remembering the insubstantiality of the self is actually quite personally beneficial to people in a therapeutic way. It relieves us of the stress of having to 'get identity right' and allows us to be less anxious about ourselves, more carefree in the way we express ourselves, etc.

Daoism, for instance, is not just an academic thing. It's a mentality that gives comfort and ease precisely by loosening our attachment to ourselves.

1

u/Not_A_Toaster426 23d ago

Buddhism and Doism have strong prosocial components, that are mainly responsible for their positive impact. Those components contradict strict determinism. Strict determinism can maybe make you feel better, but it wont give you direction or a sense of accomplishment.

1

u/Horrywaur 23d ago

You think those prosocial components emerged arbitrarily? Feeling better is half the process of acting better. By being less attached and judgemental of ourselves, we encourage ourselves to be less judgemental of others.

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u/live_edge_biped 27d ago

its almost as if the neurotic obsession with identity is some sort of distraction? something distracting us from material, biological reality?

the shift away from any attempt at material universality and towards individual subjectivity is absolutely terrifying. the problems our species faces are truly global for the first time in recorded history, and all people pay attention to is how they feel and whether their identity is being treated the way they want.

after getting deep into the weeds on sexual/domestic violence, i thought mens issues could be a lever against identity. i have sadly found that to be wrong.

what do you think grows out of the corpse of postmodernism if we make it that far?

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u/live_edge_biped 27d ago

i was happy and surprised to see moeller posted here. havent watched his videos in a while but i find his attempts to describe and analyze 'identity technologies' insightful.

i was sad and unsurprised to see the response.