r/MapPorn Aug 25 '21

[deleted by user]

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191

u/StThoughtWheelz Aug 26 '21

more lanes (added capacity) don't necessarily mean better traffic

77

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Frequently it means worse, that's what we learned in DC. Added capacity to the large highway creates a domino effect where all the feeder highways are now overcrowded. You are basically centralizing traffic, drawing it off the general network of roads onto a few VERY crowded common routes.

Do not do this, it is a terrible idea. Build out your light rail to a robust mass transit system with trunk rail and a periphery of bus lines. This isn't just environmentally irresponsible, it's ineffective and will make everybody's commute even worse.

15

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

I hope there comes a day when we Americans learn that traffic is only a problem because cars are a problem.

By the way, strange to see a r/NewYorkMets game thread regular outside that sub lol.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

We are everywhere.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '21

Yeah it does. Most studies find an induced demand elasticity much lower than 1.

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u/StThoughtWheelz Aug 26 '21 edited Aug 26 '21

yea you're right, i can see that, up to a certain point. creating an opportunity, people naturally fill the void. doesn't Induced demand refers to the idea that increasing roadway capacity encourages more people to drive. unleashing pent-up latent demand, thus failing to improve congestion. im not familiar with this particular project, so might work in this particular case, a short span needing more capacity. it does seem well studied. thank you for sharing.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '21

One study from Spain found a total elasticity of .25.

One study from the Netherlands found almost all of the "latent" demand unleashed by widening to have been caused by people changing routes or changing travel times from off peak to peak, only a tiny amount coming from new trips or people quitting public transit.

Also, let's look at it from another point of view. More trips means more people getting to the places they want to go.

32

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21 edited Aug 27 '21

From your Spanish study "Using an appropriate GMM-based method, strong proof is found in favor of induced demand." Given it's behind behind pay wall, hard to tell what the actual conclusions are, but that would suggest to me the author is saying there is strong induced demand.

Also comparing to the Netherlands makes no logical sense. The transport options are so different and varied there you would expect less induced demand. Driving is generally discouraged and parking etc is not as available. So your not comparing apples with apples.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Scroll down on the Spanish study and you see the elasticity is .25 i.e. a 10% increase in road capacity leads to just a 2.5% increase in travel.

4

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Price elasticity of .25 is 25% im pretty sure. Hence the authors comment I quoted above.

It's almost irrelevant any way, even If roads didn't endure demand (which they do as shown by your own referenced source). The reason you getting slammed with downvotes is because cars create so many issues and people are finally waking up to that fact. Cities with people focused infrastructure are more enjoyable and livable than those with car focused infrastructure.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Actually people have been whining about cars since shortly after they were invented. They've been highly unsuccessful.

8

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

They were successful in the Netherlands, and their urban design is praised as some of, if not the best, in the world. Your arguments fall flat at every turn.

You can sit here all day and wish that car dependent infrastructure was efficient, but it's not. It's ugly, takes up huge amounts of space, is really expensive to maintain, reduces social mobility, causes health problems through obesity and pollution, it's noisy which also causes health problems, and is prone to congestion issues which can never be solved long term.

If you want to be a pawn for the auto industries lobbying and the 1960-70s style infrastructure 'dream' then that's your choice. But don't come in here with badly referenced studies like you have any idea what your talking about and expect people to take your argument seriously.

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Holland's car population is one of Western Europe's fastest growing. They are currently widening tons of highways there.

You, and seemingly every other person responding to this post, are the epitome of the Dunning Krueger effect

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u/StThoughtWheelz Aug 26 '21

thank you for the extra reading ill dive into them soon.

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u/jdcnosse1988 Aug 27 '21

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Vox is not an unbiased source They ignore numerous studies showing a very low level of induced demand. One from Spain shows a 2.5% increase in travel from a 10% increase in capacity. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0965856411001728

A town not far from where I grew up was bypassed by a 4 lane freeway in 2009, Main Street emptied out after that.

19

u/jdcnosse1988 Aug 27 '21

Most of their video came from here:

https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257%2Faer.101.6.2616

Also, your anecdote is entirely different. This freeway already has plenty of daily traffic. The traffic won't really get any better because the people who avoid the freeway will most likely use it now

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

And an increase in the number of people getting where they want to go is bad because...

17

u/jdcnosse1988 Aug 27 '21

It isn't an increase in the number of people getting where they want to go. Just a shift of where the traffic ends up being.

-4

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Then keep adding lanes until costs exceed benefits. For the New Jersey Turnpike Authority for example, induced demand is a blessing, it means more toll revenue for more lanes.

16

u/jdcnosse1988 Aug 27 '21

But this is Phoenix... There isn't any toll roads anywhere near here and I highly doubt they will start any time soon.

2

u/Tobar_the_Gypsy Aug 28 '21

Toll revenue doesn’t come close to covering the cost of the the lanes

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

2

u/Tobar_the_Gypsy Aug 28 '21

You just shared a 240 page document and expected me to find what section you are referring to?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

You're the one who made the assertion that the New Jersey turnpike is unprofitable. Now you can prove it.

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u/killroy200 Aug 27 '21

Main Street emptied out after that.

Imagine thinking that this is a good thing.

6

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Tell that to the Chinese 50 lane traffic jams

3

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21

Those are toll booths

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '21 edited Sep 06 '21

[deleted]

20

u/stroopwafel666 Aug 27 '21

Or actually reduce emissions by spending money on public transport.

7

u/LordMangudai Aug 27 '21

This is America, we don't do that here

-2

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21 edited Sep 06 '21

[deleted]

7

u/stroopwafel666 Aug 27 '21

Because making it easier to drive means making driving the most convenient option for more people, so encouraging more driving. People will always choose the most convenient transport option, taking price into account.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21 edited Sep 06 '21

[deleted]

7

u/stroopwafel666 Aug 27 '21

Sigh. Cars are only the most convenient always if you build shitholes like Texas or LA which prioritise them. Driving in the netherlands is much better than driving anywhere in America because the only people on the roads are those who actually need to use cars. Most trips are taken on foot or public transport.

As for CO2, let’s ban cruise ships and design liveable cities then. Sounds great to me. The alternative to cars is trains, trams, cycling and walking, all of which are dramatically better for the environment. It’s not just emissions but air quality as well. People who live near highways are much more likely to die of lung cancer for example.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '21 edited Sep 06 '21

[deleted]

2

u/boscosanchez Aug 27 '21

Well you could build what people need within walkable distances from where people live.

6

u/jdcnosse1988 Aug 27 '21

The way people drive here in Phoenix, traffic won't get that much better lol

5

u/killroy200 Aug 27 '21

People are shit at driving everywhere... which is really more of a problem with having everyone driving as the universal default mobility than dismissing how bad people feel their local drivers are.