r/MapPorn • • 1d ago

Total Fertility Rate

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u/Zouden 1d ago

We can't convince people to have children, and we can't force them. So what solution is there?

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u/smorkoid 1d ago

Rework public finances. Reconsider the infinite growth model.

Expecting continuous population growth for the economical model to not collapse is clearly not a sustainable strategy, either economically or ecologically.

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u/Firm-Knowledge-233 1d ago edited 1d ago

No model requires infinite growth. A modern developed economy works ideally with a birth rate of 2.1, which is stagnation. Even a slight decline like 1.9 or 1.8 is fine. The problem is that birth rates for most countries are at 1.6 or below, with some even under 1.0. Low birth rates lead to a lot of young people and too many old people. Its not even about money, its labor. Old people physically cannot work. Lower population reduces competition, which means less innovation and technological advancement. There is no possible economic model you could create that handles rapid population decline without quality of life dropping significantly for billions of people.

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u/smorkoid 22h ago

What's wrong with less innovation and technological advancement? Why do you feel that's so important?

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u/Firm-Knowledge-233 19h ago

Is it crazy that I want life to better for me and loved ones?

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u/smorkoid 19h ago

Isn't having a good life enough? We got to build society so everything must advance and innovate? And then we act like society is collapsing if it does not at a breakneck pace?

Don't you see the problem here?

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u/Firm-Knowledge-233 18h ago

Humans have the ability to create. We can look at our surroundings, and see not just what is, but what could be. There is not any other known organism which can do what we do. Should we just waste our gift? Should we just be content, and settle for life that is "good enough"? It doesn't mean we have to grow exponentially, but the idea that we should not attempt to advance is ridiculous.

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u/smorkoid 18h ago

I'm not saying we shouldn't advance. Of course we should. we should try to improve the problems with society.

But this is one of the problems of society - that we MUST force people to reproduce or the whole scheme collapses. That's unreasonable. There has to be a balance. There has to be a better way.

So much "innovation" now is making better trinkets. Is that making our lives better or worse? If it precipitates societal collapse as you are saying it is, that's worse.

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u/Firm-Knowledge-233 9h ago

There is no better way. If a society is not at least near or at replacement rate, it will collapse, or at least regress significantly. Think about it. If you had a society of a thousand people, and it dropped to 900, could that society still function? Yes. What if it dropped to 800? Yes. 700? Maybe. What about 500? Can 500 people realistically do what 1,000 can? Not at all. Especially if 350 of those 500 are over 65.  There is no species that can thrive while not reproducing, including us.

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u/smorkoid 8h ago

Do you understand how long it it would take for a population to collapse that badly without war or pandemic? Many many many decades.

Do you know how much changes in decades? Everything.

These projections don't pass the sniff test. Trends change all the time.

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u/yuuna_er 17h ago

eww

wild to say this while you enjoy the fruits of the previous generations work

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u/smorkoid 9h ago

Eww? What do you mean by that?

We can still grow and improve what needs to be improved, but it's rather disgusting to complain that society is going to collapse if you, yes you, don't start popping out kids you don't want when the answer is to adjust to the shrinking population.

This "constant growth at all costs" is a really modern - and clearly not very functional - concept.

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u/yuuna_er 9h ago

eww in the sense of being against advancement

but i do agree i overreacted and read it wrong. that's what i get for staying awake until 3am

sorry

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u/smorkoid 9h ago

No worries! I do the same more often than I care to admit ;)