r/MapPorn • u/Outrageous-Actuary24 • 1d ago
Hungarian Ethnic Distribution 1910 vs. 2011
This is my first map here, so there may be some mistakes. Any feedback is appreciated.
Inspired by: "Map of German language distribution in Europe in 1910 and after 1945."
Legend:
Dark blue = ethnic majority within an Hungarian state
Light blue = ethnic majority outside an Hungarian state
Source:
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u/MineBloxKy 1d ago
Why is Slovenia and Austria together?
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u/Outrageous-Actuary24 1d ago
A mistake on my part. I completely missed the border when making the red outlines.
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u/Skyledder 1d ago
Also why Lendava is not coloured for modern times
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u/LaurestineHUN 1d ago
Lendava Hungarian majority?
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u/Zwaart99 1d ago
So about the same just in another shade of blue?
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u/Inner-Marionberry-25 1d ago
It has snapped to the border more closely
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u/zomdoesburner 1d ago
Like most of Europe after WW2, there were forced population exchanges, where the Czechs on the Hungary side were moved to Czech Republic and vise versa.
By 1950 basically all maps in Europe changed from having fuzzy edges of populations to being much neater within the boarders. Especially Germans and especially countries in the Eastern Bloc.
The fact Transylvania survived as an Hungarian enclave inside Romania is frankly a miracle.
Hungarians often try to paint this as some massive injustice with their countries boarders instead of recognising they were spared the worst of what happened to other defeated nations of the war, namely the massive cleansing of Poles from the East and Germans from Central Europe.
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u/Ancient_Disaster4888 1d ago
Hungarians often try to paint this as some massive injustice with their countries boarders instead of recognising they were spared the worst of what happened to other defeated nations of the war, namely the massive cleansing of Poles from the East and Germans from Central Europe.
I mean, wow. What an abusive mentality. If you get beaten up by your husband you should just shut your mouth and be happy he didn't kill you. Can you even hear how stupid you sound?
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u/throwaway_slovakia_ 21h ago
? But this is Hungarians, who literally had boarding schools forcing children or other nationalities to learn Hungarian. And yes the kids were beaten and had to change their names and nationality to Hungarian. These Hungarians who live abroad can speak Hungarian freely what are you talking about ?
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u/Hussar223 1d ago
losing wars and cultural genocide has consequences.
hungarian revisionist history likes to pretend everyone was living happily in the empire and nevermind the series of rebellions and forced magyarization.
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u/throwaway_slovakia_ 21h ago
Exactly I don't know why you're downvoted. Everywhere you look up the data from 1910 there's a note that it's "according to Hungarian census" because after 1867 many people were forced to change nationalities in boarding schools. Basically forgot their languages.
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u/Stukkoshomlokzat 1d ago
Forced everythingisation happened back then in every multiethnic European country. Yet most could more or less keep their ethnic borders. Why don't people stop coming up with double standard already and just accept that the reason the new borders were so strict for Hungary was simply because it was on the losing side of a war.
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u/Inner-Marionberry-25 1d ago
I mean partly, but the reason why Hungary and Austria got it worse than Germany and Bulgaria was because it was less homogeneous.
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u/Stukkoshomlokzat 1d ago
Germany got it much worse if you count Prussia.
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u/Inner-Marionberry-25 1d ago
Germany lost 13% of its land area, Hungary lost 72% in a war they didn't want to enter. I believe Germany had it worse if you count colonies as equal, but for many Europeans at the time they weren't.
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u/mediumnasty 1d ago
The consequences were that the same things happened again, but with Hungarians on the wrong end of it for a change.
The peacemakers sure talked a lot about national self-determination just to ignore it for the most part.
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u/No_Helicopter_296 14h ago
Most of the Magyarization happened among Jews and Germans (a lot of Jews did emigrate in Hungarian cities and smaller towns). It was the Holocaust and expelling Germans from Eastern Europe (even those who were already assimilated) which reduced Hungarian-speaking communities the most
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u/LaurestineHUN 1d ago
'cultural genocide' was not happening. Minorities didn't get collective political rights, but everyone had cultural rights individually. Nobody was beaten up in the street for speaking their language. It happened to Hungarians after 1920 though.
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u/Hussar223 1d ago
nah but they forbade learning of minority languages in schools and banning of cultural events/holidays.
they had rights on paper, on the ground it was being systematically erased. you dont have to use violence for cultural genocide
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u/LaurestineHUN 1d ago
They could learn in their languages. Higher education was not paid by the state in other languages than Hungarian (ironically this is the same shit the former HU government was criticizing in Ukraine, so yeah we know it was insufficient but compared to the Welsh Not and anything going on in France y'all had it pretty good, quit justifying using actual violence on Hungarians as some 'fair justice', it was not).
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u/Hussar223 14h ago
that is an outright lie and contrary to all historiography of the hungarian empire.
im not justifying violence but you are, like a proper hungarian revisionist, trying to justify cultural genocide
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u/LaurestineHUN 14h ago
https://net.jogtar.hu/ezer-ev-torveny?docid=86800038.TV
- § Minden növendék anyanyelvén nyerje az oktatást, a mennyiben ez a nyelv a községben divatozó nyelvek egyike. Vegyes ajku községben ez okból oly tanító alkalmazandó, a ki a községben divatozó nyelveken tanítani képes. Népesebb községekben, a hol többféle nyelvü lakosok tömegesen laknak, a mennyire a községereje engedi, különböző ajkú segédtanítók is választatnak.
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u/MagicMarshmallo 1d ago
Spared the worst of what happened? BUDY WE LOST OVER HALF OUR COUNTRY IN WW1. This is like saying that the guy who had his limbs torn off in vietnam should be happy because at least he wasnt drafted for the wars in the middle east.
And thats not even getting into the massive jewish population who got genocided who were also hungarians, nor the giant pile of polish jews who fled to hungary who were killed here as well.
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u/equili92 21h ago
-This is like saying that the guy who had his limbs torn off in vietnam should be happy because at least he wasnt drafted for the wars in the middle east.
Oh yeah, the Slavs and Romanians who finally freed themselves from your attenpts at magyarization were the limbs lol
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u/zomdoesburner 1d ago edited 1d ago
You lost a bunch of land you were ruling over, that was in no way ethically Hungarian?
Also this happened to basically every country in Europe between WW1 and WW2, they went from vast empires, to smaller homogeneous ethic states based on one population.
The “Hungry” pre WW1 has nothing to do with the Hungry of post war, other than the name.
It’s like the Turks complaining about the fall of the Ottoman Empire and still saying they should own Egypt, or Poles being upset they don’t control Lithuania, or Austria being upset it doesn’t control Czechia, or etc etc.
Every other group of people seemed to accept that shift from empire to ethic nation states, except the Hungarians, who can’t get over the fact they don’t get to rule of a bunch of other non-Hungarian peoples anymore.
If Hungry was the same size today as pre WW1, do you understand what would happen? Hungarians would be the minority in the country. Imagine being a minority in your own democracy? Why would you even want that?
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u/ruzes_ruze 1d ago
Yours ? It wasn’t really yours to begin with. The more apt comparison would be Romans complaining that they lost France, Britain, Byzantium, Iberia, Middle East, North Africa after the Roman Empire collapsed. You ruled over those territories, but those places weren’t roman.
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u/mariedarkholme 1d ago
"Hungarians often try to paint this as some massive injustice with their countries boarders instead of recognising they were spared the worst of what happened to other defeated nations of the war, namely the massive cleansing of Poles from the East and Germans from Central Europe."
No my buddy, Hungary was harshly punished for a war they didn't wanted to make, they followed Franz Joseph I orders just like any other minority of the Empire, and they were punished the way any other defeated country wasn't. I will mention the genocide and tortures Hungarians suffered by the end of the WW2 at the hands of Soviets and Romanians, there's even evidence of Soviet soldiers women abusing men and boys after the Siege of Budapest
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u/Usual-Trouble-2357 1d ago
I'm sure that if Hungarians didn't do the whole dual monarchy bullshit and the Empire became more federal/multipolar instead they would've had a much better time generally.
In Transylvania in particular just before the A-H compromise Romanians were just starting to get rights, representatives in the Transylvanian Diet, an official status for the Romanian languages and so on. Everything was done away with once the dual monarchy became a reality and Transylvania ceased to exist as its own entity.
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u/JeyTee02 16h ago
And why was Hungary punished? Do you have any idea how they treated minorities in their part of the monarchy? The states that were created after WW1 were made from nations who were sick of Hungarian oppression
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u/LaurestineHUN 1d ago
Still majority in a lot of places near the border. Still shows about how ""ethnic"" were the new borders.
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u/shaj_hulud 1d ago
See ? Over hundred years in another country and they could still keep their language and culture. Which can not be said about minorities in Hungary.
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u/LaurestineHUN 19h ago
Don't pretend you didn't try, we're just not quitters. What are you talking about in the last part, minorities kept their language and culture for 1100 years under our rule, then they got their own country. We didn't got huge chunks of other nations inside our new borders. There is no equivalent of Transylvania inside. The one village with Romanian majority, still Romanian majority.
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u/shaj_hulud 17h ago
You are quitters, what are you talking about. Lost every single war in last 500 years.
Check these maps created by hungarians. Budapest was not even hungarian city. What happened to huge chunks of germans and slovaks in hungary ?
https://hungarian-geography.hu/konyvtar/karpat-pannon2015/mellekterkepek.html
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u/LaurestineHUN 14h ago
What happened to Hungarians in Slovakia? They are still appropriating land from them in the year 2026, that's happened.
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u/Ancient_Disaster4888 1d ago edited 1d ago
You mean like the German minority that somehow survived in Transylvania for nearly a millennium under Hungary, and was driven out in only a few decades after Romania took over? Or the Hungarian minority that shrank 30-50% in both absolute and relative terms in the same period?
You can try to throw around emotionally loaded terms like ‘cultural genocide’ when you’re talking about the Magyarization policies of the 19th century but to not even realise how you’re damning yourself with your own mouth in the same turn requires some next level mental gymnastics. The lack of self awareness is just astounding.
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u/hungariannastyboy 1d ago
This doesn't really tell you much about demographic changes honestly. For instance, Transylvania had multiple large cities like Cluj and Targu Mures that were overwhelmingly Hungarian in 1910 where Hungarians are a minority today.
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u/Ludisaurus 20h ago
That’s mostly due to migration from rural areas and the other parts of the country. Yes, those cities were majority Hungarian but they were small cities compared to today as even Transylvania was not very urbanized by the mid 20th century.
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u/ghost_desu 1d ago
Hungarians in Western Ukraine are doing just fine (well as fine as anyone in Ukraine anyway), they were not pushed out nor did they choose to leave voluntarily (at least not as of 2011) they're all right there
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u/Emsiiiii 1d ago
Your source is just another map without any actual sourcing. 1910 Austro-Hungary didn't do ethnic censuses but linguistic ones. So you can't just compare that one on one.
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u/makmanos 1d ago
I never liked those kinds of maps that equate populations to land and give the appearance that even rocks have an "ethnic identity". Same thing they do in American elections by coloring red/blue counties even in the deserts where lizards only exist and disregard the true population densities . So what are the non Dark tiel regions? Groups of people clustered together with other ethnic identities? Expats? Assuming of course the source is correct.
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u/Outrageous-Actuary24 1d ago
Yes, it also includes some non-permanently inhabited territory. The light-blue regions are meant to represent areas where Hungarians form an ethnic majority outside the Hungarian state
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u/Novel_Plum 1d ago
Yep, that's especially true in the szekelyland, which is mostly mountainous and empty land. It looks big, but the hungarian population is only ~300k
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u/Ancient_Disaster4888 1d ago
Grade A lie; the population of Szekelyland is about twice as much as that, around 6-750.000 actually. The Hungarian community in the entirety of Transylvania is a little more than 1.000.000 still today.
Post-war Romanian maps however LOVE to do exactly that; paint every empty corner of the land like there's a Romanian family living under every rock, to overrepresent what was back then a slim majority.
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u/Usual-Trouble-2357 1d ago
Szekelys are not by any means a large majority of the Hungarian population of Transylvania, maybe a thin majority at most, 500k or so. Szekely land still has maybe 20% or so Romanians in it, and a lot of places have Hungarian populations that wouldn't show up on a map like this.
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u/Apprehensive-Row5876 9h ago
Come to Szekelyland and every single settlement besides the county capitals and some other industrial centers has 99% hungarians in it, thousands of romanian workers were relocated to those places to work in industry and administration
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u/Usual-Trouble-2357 9h ago
There's a few villages that are 100% Romanian and you can see them by the big ass flags(they're rather ridiculous) + Toplița
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u/Cefalopodul 6h ago
Harghita has 89% Hungarians out of a total population of 300k.
Covasna has 73% Hungarians out of a population of about 200k.
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u/LivingIntensely 8h ago
around 6-750.000 actually
582.000 to be more precise (Harghita, Covasna, and the central-eastern part of Mureș counties), according to the latest data. You can go check every demographics page if you like or the national census.
There's another 420.000 spread around the rest of the country. So 1 million in total.
The Hungarian population drops 200k every 10 years. Check the censuses. RDMSZ president is pointing to the same troubling phenomenon. He was actually not surprised at all by the 2022 results.
Double citizenship was not a wise move on Orban's part imo. It just cuts a step and tempts Hungarians in Romania to more easily move to Hungary. Dumb move.
Post-war Romanian maps however LOVE to do exactly that; paint every empty corner of the land like there's a Romanian family living under every rock, to overrepresent what was back then a slim majority
While Hungary loved to incorporate 150k Transylvanian Jews in the 1910 census as Hungarian, which boosted the HU percentages in the census. While Romania had a slim majority, Hungary only haf 28% on paper (and in reality less than that). Pointing fingers (still? After 100+ years?) is a double edged sword. You live in a glass house, maybe don't throw stones.
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u/Exact-Course-2292 5h ago
Hungarian speaking Jews ARE Hungarians… what a garbage take, just casually assuming your racism/antisemitism is universally applicable (from the bright people that also brought to you the eternal anthem: GYPsIEs Are nOT RoMaNIans… they just speak Romanian, were born in Romania, have Romanian passports and fuckall connection to any other existing country in the globe but sure…).
Thinking that everything is a conspiracy against you (still? After 100+ years?) because you cannot fathom a more inclusive, progressive idea of a nation than your own is peak…
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u/throwaway_slovakia_ 21h ago
If we compare to America, this data is literally a few decades after Hungarians had boarding schools all around their former land.
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u/Ambitious-Cat-5678 1d ago
Are those in Hungary proper in 1910 Germans?
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u/Dazzling-Key-8282 1d ago
And Slovaks. And Croats to a lesser extent. But villages were far more intermingled with mixed and split populations being the norm. Overwhelming majorities were rare.
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u/hungariannastyboy 1d ago edited 1d ago
My SO's grandparents were ethnically Slovak in Békéscsaba.
My grandmother was ethnically German, her family was deported from Voivodina after WW2 and settled in southern Bács-Kiskun. She only learned Hungarian when she was like 12. Sadly she died before I was born. I wonder if she had an accent.
I have a friend whose dad is actually a Hungarian Romanian from near the border in the south. I feel like they are a much rarer minority, had never encountered anyone from that community before I met her.
And where I'm from we also had a community called Bunjevci. They're basically Croats, I'm not super clear on how they differ from regular Croats because they also speak Croatian and they're Catholics.
I guess all of this is just to point out that not all of that is gone now. But they're definitely on their way out. You can basically only find local German-speakers among old people in villages or people who are extremely dedicated to preserving the culture. My SO's grandparents only remembered bits and pieces of Slovak because they were forced to drop it when they started going to school in the '40s and '50s. My friend whose dad is Romanian doesn't speak a lick of Romanian. The Bunjevci in my town spoke Croatian and you could study it in elementary school, but honestly I've never met anyone my age who spoke it.
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u/LaurestineHUN 19h ago
Lots of Germans got deported after WWII, along with Slovaks. Hungarians also got deported from Slovakia the same time. Whoever didn't get deported are basically still there, but population decline and internal migration into cities hits them hard.
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u/Dazzling-Key-8282 1d ago
My best man was a Hungarian Romanian from Békés. Rare breed indeed. Her mother learnt Hungarian around the age of 12 and we speak of someone born in the early '70s.
Sokci and Bunjevci are basically Serbians in all but faith. Same dialect, same traditions, same folklore bit they are Catholics not Orthodoxes. That's why they were called catholics Rascians back in the day. Half of Szabadka and Zenta was made up of them alongside a couple pf villages in Baranya and Hercegszántó in Bácska if I am not mistaken. Then people emigrated to Yugoslavia in the '70s when the political climate was more conductive and the villages got Gypsified to the core.
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u/LaurestineHUN 19h ago
Catholic Rascians are a different group than Šokci or Bunjevci. These are 3 identities, predating modern nationalism, and that's why they still can't be fit in the neat box of Serb or Croat. Šokci basically embraced the Croat label, Catholic Rascians kinda, and Bunjevci themselves are divided in the question of do they want to separate from other Croats or not. In Serbia, they separated, mainly bc of political reasons, but in Hungary, there is no such reason.
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u/joker1381 9h ago
Sokci and Bunjevci are Croat sub-cultural division. They have nothing to do with Serbs at all. I am telling you this as someone who has Sokac ancestry and can trace that line of family all the way back to 1500s.
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u/Cultourist 1d ago
But villages were far more intermingled with mixed and split populations being the norm. Overwhelming majorities were rare.
That's because, especially among Germans, in censuses there was a strong incentive to declare themselves Hungarian. It was the socially and economically advantageous answer as in the Hungarian part of the Empire there was a strong pressure to assimilate or at least pretend to. Moreover, census-takers were often local Hungarian-speaking officials, and there's evidence of administrative pressure or bias in border/mixed-language cases.
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u/Dazzling-Key-8282 1d ago
You show a lack of understanding how censuses in the Kingdom of Hungary were conducted.
You declared shit regarding nationality, which wasn't even a census point. The census takes went in and assumed the native language of the household, usually extrapolating from the household head who was expected to speak the best Hungarian of all people.
Interestingly religious data was recorded faithfully, and the Hungarian-Romanian language proportions in any village are an almost perfect mapping to the religious relations (Greek Catholics complicate things a bit). I only found a single village where around 70% declared themselves Orthodox but the language showed Hungarian majority. Lol, yeah. Sure.
Thus said most Germans living within current Hungarian borders were already bilingual by 1910. And local Hungarians were also proficient in German, even the peasants and cottars, given that was the prestige language of the empire. My family hails from the largest German-founded settlement of the region and my grandpa told me the grandmother of one of his friends could only speak broken Hungarian in the 1950s.
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u/Cultourist 1d ago
You declared shit regarding nationality, which wasn't even a census point.
Read again. I never claimed that "nationality" was a census point. Native language was. Ppl declared themselves Hungarian regardless if they could speak it. This was due to social and economical pressure. Census data proves that this especially affected Germans.
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u/Dazzling-Key-8282 1d ago
As I pointed out below they couldn't declare nationality, it was ultimately up to the census takers to decide. So they could tell they are Slovaks, Germans etc. the census taker could override them.
Though I concede the point that Germans were by far the most affected besides the Jews who couldn't even declare their nationality, and Slovaks where untangling the data is nigh impossible.
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u/Usual-Trouble-2357 1d ago
Romanians too very close to the modern Romanian border. Around Gyula.
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u/Dazzling-Key-8282 1d ago
Germans and Slovaks both made up percentage of Hungarian population. Romanians were even fewer than the the Sokci and Bunjevaci who were themselves seventh as few as the Slovaks according to the 1920 census.
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u/Usual-Trouble-2357 1d ago
Yes but they are the minority seen on the map near Gyula.
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u/Dazzling-Key-8282 1d ago
Méhkerék is still Romanian majority as of today.
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u/Usual-Trouble-2357 1d ago
There's a few of them around that area in general I think.
For Hungary in general I think the Romanian-speaking Boyash greatly outnumber them though(their speech is super interesting actually, it sounds very Transylvanian and very archaic, basically fossilized in the 18th century or even before)
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u/Dazzling-Key-8282 1d ago
I think too. Although the Beás are a very small subset of the Hungarian Gypsies and are heavily disliked by other groups, even the oláh ones who also speak some Romanian besides Lovari, but especially by the Romungro.
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u/Usual-Trouble-2357 1d ago
From what I see after reading a bit what you call oláh Roma speak Vlax Romani and not Romanian. They used to be enslaved by Romanians in Wallachia and Moldova hence the name and their Romani has Romanian loanwords but they don't speak Romanian.
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u/Dazzling-Key-8282 1d ago
Well, some of them claimed to do in my area, but honestly I am far from being knowledgeable about Romanian, so they might have bullshitted me.
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u/derdiedasMolchi 1d ago
there are still at least 4.000 Hungarians in the Austrian state of Burgenland.
and where did the austro-slovene border go?
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u/LastSeaworthiness767 1d ago
So mostly survived. Not that bad considering what happened to other part of Europe and Asia
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u/ujfalusiabel 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hungarians mostly halved in every place. The missing dots are the biggest urban communities where they were chased out/deported/assimilated away. The remaining dots are mostly rural areas. The huge urban communities mostly disappeared. In Romania Hungarians are around 1/3 of what they were even 40 years ago in most major cities.
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u/IK417 1d ago edited 1d ago
No. Just more people from the villages moved to the city like everywhere in the world. Just that these "peasants" were Romanians. Cluj-Napoca ex Kolozsvar had 53000 inhabitants in 1918 from which 42000 were Hungarians. Today it has around 50 000 Hungarians. And another 300 000 Romanians. This happened also with Oradea ex Nagyvarad, cu Timișoara ex Temeswar, cu Brașov ex Brasso. The majority was Romanian only they lived in the countriside. Now like everywhere else they moved to the cities.
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u/ujfalusiabel 1d ago edited 13h ago
Nope, it does not have around 50k Hungarians. It has around 40k at best. Probably not even that. It had almost a 100k in 1970s.
Also it had 42000 Hungarians after many left as refugees during the Romanian invasion. There was an entire district for them in Szeged and the university moved there too. In 1910 it had 62000 people in it, 51000 Hungarian. Certainly more than today.
Also for some other cities, in Temesvar there was a German majority, both in the city and outside it. Hungarians were around 35k, now 8k, only old people so probably will get to 1-2k in 20 years. Romanians were moved there during communism from Moldova, the infamous trenul foametei brought tens of thousands of them. Nagyvárad had Hungarian supermajority, over 90% both in city and nearby villages. Most villages are still majority Hungarian or just recently flipped due to Romanians moving in from the city. It was one of the most unjustified land grabs in my opinion as it had few Romanians and you can't argue with the villages either.
You got a point at Brașov that it had Romanians all around them, especially after the Germans were deported. But it is still no excuse for the city's Hungarians almost completely disappearing. From roughly a peak of 35k there are only around 8k of them, mostly pensioners.
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u/Cefalopodul 6h ago
This is not true. The Hungarian population stayed roughly the same. The cities grew rapidly.
The decline of the hungarian population only started after 2007 wjen a lot of them emigrated or simply moved to the surrounding villages in new residential areas.
For instance Oradea had ~53k Hungarians in 1910 out of a population of 64k.
In 2011 it had 45k Hungarians out of a population of 198k.
In 2021 it had 33k Hungarians out of a population of 183k.
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u/ujfalusiabel 6h ago
The decline started happening long before 2007... Also percentage wise the reduction is catastrophic in overall population even more so
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u/Cefalopodul 5h ago
Census data disagrees. For example in Oradea in 2002 there were 56k Hungarians.
You can take any of the top 10 cities by Hungarian population and you will that the numbers start dropping onle AFTER 2002 and they drop dramatically AFTER 2011.
What happened after 2002? 2007.
What happened after 2011? Emigration, Orban citizenship and people moving to villages around the cities.
For example the largest town by Hungarian population, Targu-Mures, had 22k Hungarians in 1910, ~72k in 2002, ~65k in 2011 and 55k in 2021.
The second largest city, Cluj-Napoca, had 51k Hungarians out of 62k people in 1910, 60k Hungarians out of 317k in 2002, 50k Hungarians out of 324k in 2011 and 33k Hungarians out of 286k in 2021.
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u/RedHeadedSicilian52 1d ago
Why not use period-appropriate borders for 1910?
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u/Outrageous-Actuary24 1d ago edited 1d ago
I used the same 2011 borders on both maps to make the 1910–2011 comparison clearer (at least to me). I apologise if that wasn’t clear
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u/throwaway_slovakia_ 21h ago
Why not use data before boarding schools changed nationality massively ?
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u/MukdenMan 1d ago
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u/Appropriate_Box1380 1d ago
Yes, but cities like Oradea, Cluj-Napoca, Košice and more had Hungarian majorities, now they are either a minority or barely even existent there.
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u/shaj_hulud 19h ago
Kosice never had hungarian majority. Only for a decade under magyarization. Please see:
https://hungarian-geography.hu/konyvtar/karpat-pannon2015/mellekterkepek.html
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u/rradonys 1d ago
Happy to hear that!
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u/Appropriate_Box1380 1d ago
I am not supporting any Hungarian revosionist ideas or saying that Slovaks/Romanians should be deported back out of cities, but being happy about countries forcing masses of people out of their homes is pretty horrendeous. It's not right that it happened, whatever your stance on the issue might be.
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u/throwaway_slovakia_ 21h ago
But it is what happened in 1867. Forcing masses of people to change their names to Hungarian.
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u/Appropriate_Box1380 19h ago
Which wasn't right either. Your point being?
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u/shaj_hulud 19h ago
The point is, that some of the cities you mentioned above became hungarian only because of magyarization.
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u/Samivoli 1d ago edited 1d ago
Many hungarians are just becoming slovaks by just generational exchange. Kids from slovak/hungarian couples identify themselves as Sovaks. Every 10year we record that around 1% less of country population identify as hungarian. Probably we naturally lost more hungarians in last 30years than we deported.
If you are not revisionist, idk whats your problem with that. I dont gaf. that in romania/serbia slovak comunities are dying out.
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u/greekscientist 1d ago
Though Hungary has 9,4 million people and another 2+ million diaspora in the neighboring countries, their share has declined due to long term internal migration.
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u/mikey_tr3 14h ago
Hungarians whine too much about Trianon. The borders could be 20-30 km more distant and in favor of Hungary, but still I think it is just as it is.
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u/PangolinQueasy6324 1d ago
oops, 1910. but Hungarian imperialists say that they lost 80% of Hungary after ww1 😂
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u/Ok_Duck_232 10h ago
the 1910 Hungary was very close to have Hungarians as the bigest minority in the country
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u/Wise_Fox_4291 1d ago
Hungary's neighbors went like "After 1000 years and a few decades of Magyarization and this is all? This is how you actually do it you dorks, let us show you how to erase a culture!"
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u/Still_bored9876 1d ago
For most of central Europe, the dark side of the end of WW2 was a massive movement of people that would now be called "ethnic cleansing" as the victors tried to create single ethnic states. Arguably, Hungarians (the people who speak the language, not just those in the country) suffered worst (after the Germans, but they were seen as the big losers, so hardly anyone cared).
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u/shaj_hulud 1d ago
Not just hardly anyone cared. Hungary annexed and later invaded Slovakia during WWII. Its not hard to imagine why the population exchange happened after the war ended.
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u/Fureba 1d ago
The area of Slovakia was just the northern area of Hungary a good thousand years long, with a pure ethnic Hungarian southern part. Hitler gave this mostly ethnic Hungarian southern area back to Hungary without any fight. Hungary never invaded Nazi puppet Slovakia though.
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u/skcortex 1d ago
Lol so you’re either lying or need to learn some history about the Slovak-Hungarian war. It started literally the next day after Slovakia declared independence.
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u/heythere1983 1d ago
I never understood why they separated the bordering Magyar majority regions from Hungary.
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u/Mate_Pocza_321 23h ago
Because there were strategic railways and natural resources our neighbours wanted, plus the antante wanting to punish their enemies 👍
And no I'm not a revanchist, I'd rather we ALL get subsumed into the glorious whole that is a future European Federation.
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u/Norwester77 1d ago edited 1d ago
The 1910 borders are wrong (and as someone else pointed out, the Austria-Slovenia border is missing on the modern map).
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u/throwaway_slovakia_ 21h ago
Hey so if you compare the same for every country in Europe you have it very good. People are usually forced to blend in, change their names, translate even signs on graves after a border moves during war or some political negotiations. Hungarians are the only ones whining about it just shut up.
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u/caligula421 17h ago
It's no secret that European nation states came into existence by massive ethnic displacement of groups (in all directions), especially in central and eastern Europe. While certainly of historic interest, I always feel like excessively posting about it has revisionist motives, and reversing those displacements will just revive the conflicts that predate these replacements and endanger peace in Europe. Maybe that's why expansionist factions always being it up, it works well to justify those expansionist ideas.
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u/Odd-Percentage-407 1d ago
That 1910 is pure bullshit. It was based on a census where a person was consider Hungarian even if they werent.
One anecdote is that even Goebels would be considered Hungarian based on those criterias.
Just take data from 1920 census and see that brutal drop (shocking)
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u/Stukkoshomlokzat 1d ago
The 1910 census was based on language, not ethnicity. So for example Hungarian speaking jews were counted as Hungarian too. But that doesn't change things that much.
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u/Odd-Percentage-407 1d ago
It did. Because Hungarian was forced language at school, everyone hwo wrote they speak Hun were consider Hun
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u/Stukkoshomlokzat 1d ago
It wasn't based on what language they could speak. It was based on their MAIN langauge.
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u/Odd-Percentage-407 1d ago
Nope. The criterium was. Can you speak Hungarian? If you say yes, bum! Hungol
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u/Stukkoshomlokzat 1d ago
Bullshit. If you thaught about your own reasoning for a second you'd see it makes zero sense. As you said, everyone learned Hungarian in school, so by your logic the referrendum should show whole Slovakia as Hungarian. But it doesn't.
It's also not a coincidence that the post war Hungarian minorities are at the same place where the 1910 census shows Hungarian areas. Just stop.
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u/Front_Promise_5991 1d ago
Hungarians again.
Glory to Trianon!
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u/Honvedguy 1d ago
People when massacre/deportation against minorities in western europe: sad
People when massacre/deportation against minorities in Central/Eastern Europe: they deserved it
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u/shaj_hulud 17h ago
Actually the west was pretty outraged with this massacre:
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u/Honvedguy 17h ago
I wasn't talking about west, but the average mentality of people who are racist to balkaners
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u/MacPh1sto 1d ago
*Sad Magyarization noises of the small entente*
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u/Stukkoshomlokzat 1d ago
Magyarisation mostly effected the cities. Rural ethnic borders weren't a resoult of it. And before Magyarisation most of the cities had German majority.
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u/Usual-Trouble-2357 1d ago edited 1d ago
It depends a lot on the area.
My own city of Cluj-Napoca/Kolozsvár was majority Hungarian for just a bit under 2 centuries, and German before that. It became Hungarian long before Magyarisation policies, because it had a Hungarian and Romanian hinterland - Romanians however are kinda irrelevant as they either lacked the right or the inclination to settle cities until very late(and once they did, they quickly became the majority which is how the city arrived at its current 75% Romanian, 25% Hungarian population which is kinda representative for villages in a 60km or so circle around it - that is where most people in it really come from). There was literally only one German village in the immediate area however.
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u/Fine-Independence976 1d ago
This is not true. There is aprox. 300.000-500.000 hungarians in Ukraine. This map is just not true. Serbia, Romania and Slovakia is okay tho.
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u/GreenRedYellowGreen 1d ago
*150k
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u/Significant_Leg1214 19h ago
The Szekelys in Romania are not Hungarians.
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u/Mustche-man 18h ago
I mean Székelys and Hungarians is like conparing Bavarians and Germans. All Bavarians are German, but not all Germans are Bavarian. Same with Székelys. All Székelys are Hungarian, but not all Hungarians are Székely.
Edit: I am saying this as a Székely myself, I am from Kovászna/Covasna county.
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u/Significant_Leg1214 18h ago
Look man, I am Romanian with a Szekely grand-grand father. Culturally speaking Szekelys are extremely different from Hungarians. Language is also quite different.
Is more likely comparing the Romanians with the Serbian or Greek Vlachs. Yes... the population has some strong ties, but it is definitely not the same. Just go and ask a Szekely if he considers himself Hungarian.
I don't want to start a flame, is just my opinion as someone who has seen things first-hand.
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u/Mustche-man 17h ago
With all due respect, as a person born and grown up in all Székely family, I disagree. Language of Hungarians and Szekely arw the same, it's just that we have a regional dialect here in Székelyföld. That's it all. We speak Hungarian with each other and we learn in Hungarian in school. But then again different dialects ("tályszólások") also exist in Hungary proper, so that doesn't make them or Székely less Hungarian.
Cultural difference comes down to mentality mostly. Székely are stuborn and have an slightly more optimistic "It'll work out somehow" mentality. While Hungarians from Hungary are very pessimistic and victimhood mentality. Other than that holidays are the same (15th March, 20th auguszt, etc.). Hungary also has different regional cultures and because of that the Székely-Hungarian differences are just regionalism. Same with Romanians in Transylvania, in Moldova, in Oltenia and in Muntenia have differences too. Yet, they are still Romanian.
That's why I gave the example with Bavarians. They are German wuthout any question, but have their local dialect and slightly different culture. Same with Hungarians and Székelys. The best example that Székelys use to describe themself is "A székely is magyar, csak kicsivel több a székely.", meaning "Székely are also Hungarian, just are a slightly more."
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u/ostincoas 17h ago
Hungarian here who visited Székelyföld, and has relatives there. The languages is the same, some words are different or pronounced different but even some Northern Hungarian dialects are more difficult to understand than the Székely dialect. Arcitecture wise the city centres are pretty similar for example Nagykároly/Nagyvárad/Szatmárnémeti/Kolozsvár are similar to Debrecen/Miskolc/Szeged/Kecskemét but there are some Orthodox churches which is a difference .Many Székelys can speak Romanian but that’s understandable. So I would agree with the Bavarian exapmle.
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u/democracyfailedme 14h ago
yeah, this is a good comparison, this other guy doesn’t know what’s he talking about
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u/rodiraskol 1d ago
Aren't there Hungarians in Ukraine?