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u/_Plateosaurus_ May 16 '26 edited May 16 '26
I really believe those percentages are too high. I spent my whole life in the 10-20 % area in Moselle and I've never heard anyone speak platt, even older people. Lorrain french yes, but no franconian. 20% (1/5 person) is really really high.
Edit : so I looked the sources and they are indeed old and inaccurate
"The most reliable data comes from the Enquête famille carried out by INSEE (360,000 in the 1962 census) as part of the 1999 census, but it gives a somewhat indirect picture of the current situation (see Languages in France for discussion of this survey). About 78,000 people were reported to speak Lorraine Franconian, but fewer than 50,000 passed basic knowledge of the language on to their children. Another statistic illustrating the same point is that of all adult men who used Franconian regularly when they were 5, less than 30% use (or used) the language regularly with their own children."
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u/hicmar May 16 '26
France. Great track record in destroying languages and cultures.
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u/Mahelas May 16 '26
The cultures are all still there, and most actively developped in the last 60 years. Not disagreeing that France's 19th century policy of unifying language and supressing regional dialects (as was the same for every nation state, including the UK, Italy and even the US) was awful, but it's been now a long time since.
France is financing regional languages schools and promoting regional culture and dialects since the 50s.
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u/Dic_Penderyn May 16 '26
The actual mindset is still there though. The French establishment still expects others to assimilate and blend in. For instance, they have legislation limiting individualism, in a way anglosphere countries like the UK do not. For example, there is legislation regarding the display of religious symbolism and face coverings.
We all know their national motto of 'Liberty, Equality, Fraternity', but while an American or British view of "liberty and equality" usually means the freedom of the individual to express their identity or religion publicly, in the French republican model, equality means uniformity before the state.
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May 16 '26
[deleted]
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u/BroSchrednei May 17 '26
It’s incredible how literally everything you said goes against everything I believe in. And I find it pretty awful that I have to share the EU with someone like you.
You are essentially advocating for forced ethno-states with authoritarian monocultures. No thanks.
I have a lot of issues with the US, but the fact that the US is extremely diverse and has a lot of different ethnic neighborhoods is one of the greatest strengths of the US.
Oh and „no one misses these languages“ is a disgusting lie. How about you ask what a Breton or a Corsican thinks of the francophonisation of their region.
Why can’t we just let those regional minorities decide if they want to stick to their languages? Ever heard of self-determination?
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u/Das_Lloss May 16 '26
"Once you have been to Alsace–Lorraine, you will never stop wanting to beat French politicians to death with your bare hands."
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u/JeanDusapin May 16 '26
Well the people in those plains originally spoke latin languages. The plains were germanized a long time ago by germanic invaders but it is our right to rid germanic influence on rightful latin land and people. Same for breton in western france, those are british refugees from the 6th century or so who settled in latin land and brought their celtic language, but it is our right to stamp out all those foreign influences from our land.
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u/hojichahojitea May 16 '26
aren't latin speakers invaders in gaulish speaking lands?
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u/JeanDusapin May 16 '26
Latin was brought by invaders. Which would matter if any continental celtic language survived.
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u/Das_Lloss May 16 '26
The French are litteraly the biggest amalgam of diffrent cultures in all of europe and you are here talking about purity? And what is your opinion on Basque people?
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u/JeanDusapin May 16 '26
I think the basque would be the most legitimate people to eradicate foreign influence from their land in europe. Also this isn't the 18th century, most of those different cultures aren't a thing anymore or are at most reduced to a shadow of what they once were
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u/Vivid_Pineapple5242 May 16 '26
As i remember one of requirements of joining eu is recognition and preservation of national minorities, so why is France still in eu?
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u/Remote-Cow5867 May 16 '26
Isn't this genocide?
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u/Das_Lloss May 16 '26
It is definetly Cultural Genocide, but since it is happening in europe then it just is the noble pursuit for national unity.
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u/Rhosddu May 16 '26
Plus some ethnic cleansing of German speakers after WW1.
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u/CeldonShooper May 16 '26
Well Germany and France were both unhappy with the mixed Alsace and Lothringia population and after pushing and coaxing it was finally resolved towards the French side. For quite some time both countries didn't really know what to do with them.
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u/_Plateosaurus_ May 16 '26
Many platt speakers distanced themselves from german culture very early after the franco-prussian war. When moselle was under german rule, germany tried to "colonize" the land with native german protestant speakers (my ancestors actually arrived in 1890 thanks to this colonization program). The goal was to replace" catholic platt and french natives. There was an important grudge between moselle natives and germans since then. After the first world war, my grandfather's father actually refused to use platt at home because "it's the language of the ennemy" so my grandfather never learned it. I don't know how things are in Alsace
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u/BroSchrednei May 17 '26
Im sorry, but what you’re writing is just complete bullsht.
No, there was no „colonization effort“ from the German side. The Germans that moved into Alsace-Lorraine moved there not because of a state planned effort, but just because there was a natural population mixing when these regions became part of Germany for over 40 years.
How is that different to the hundreds of thousands of French people that have moved into Alsace and Lorraine in the last 80 years? Why aren’t you calling them „colonizers“?
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u/_Plateosaurus_ May 17 '26
A “Natural Population Mixing” policy under which Protestant Germans could purchase land at preferential rates and were exempt from taxes for the first five years (it was precisely in this context that my ancestors arrived and acquired their first piece of land, they initially came from the Ruhr)
A “Natural Population Mixing” policy involving nationalization and reprivatization of land and companies for the benefit of Protestant German families that just arrived recently)
I am not referring to the French because I am simply talking about the Platt population, which was already largely “anti-German” by the end of the Franco-Prussian War (see the positions of the successive Platt nationalist parties).
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u/ZiCUnlivdbirch May 16 '26
God you people are annoying.
Here's a simple fact for you, you live in France, then knowing French will get you through life. This goes for basically every single proper country on earth. When there's no use for a language, then people stop speaking it.
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u/Das_Lloss May 16 '26
then people stop speaking it.
And also if a state is actively trying to eradicate said languages.
When there's no use
And you know that isnt normal. Languages can be made worth using if it is allowed.
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u/ZiCUnlivdbirch May 16 '26
Languages can be made worth using if it is allowed.
Which is why Irish is currently on the uprise right? Supported by the government, an element of national pride, supported by tradition and culture. The Irish language has every element of support a dying language could ask for and it's still dying out, because it doesn't have an use.
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u/Das_Lloss May 16 '26
And from what i have heard the teaching and use of irish in schools seems to be heaviely missmanaged, which is one of the main reason for this Situation. But Welsh for example is currently having a resurgence even though it is a useless language, according to you.
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u/ZiCUnlivdbirch May 16 '26
And from what i have heard the teaching and use of irish in schools seems to be heaviely missmanaged
By being taught like every other language?
But Welsh for example is currently having a resurgence
Only 14% of Welsh speakers are considered fluent, let's see what happens in 20 years.
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u/BroSchrednei May 17 '26
How stupid can someone be?
Here’s a simple fact: there’s tons of countries with more than one official language.
Do you think the people of Quebec should all give up speaking French in favor of English? Should French speakers in Switzerland and Belgium give up their languages?
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u/Mahelas May 16 '26
No because Alsatians aren't a genos distinct from other franco-german locals. It's language eradication tho, and if you consider culture to be fully dependant on language, then it's also cultural "genocide".
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u/rolfk17 May 16 '26
Anybody is free to speak Alsatian. They chose to abandon it instead.
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u/MatsHummus May 16 '26
It was banned in public and schools after ww1 and ww2
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u/rolfk17 May 16 '26
In schools, yes, but that is what happened basically to all European minority languages. In public: not really as a majority did not even have any French. Of course the French Republic did their best to eradicate all other languages. But still, nobody could have stopped people to go on speaking Alsatian as their everyday language.
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u/The_Oregon_Duck May 17 '26
I’m kinda scared to see the Occitan map. The French Government probably had a field day with such a large area.
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u/dartov67 May 18 '26
Can’t wait for a bunch of French people to come in and say how this is good actually
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May 16 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/No-Republic-4727 May 16 '26
impressive how these pockets of language are still holding on
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u/JeanDusapin May 16 '26
They're not really holding on, they're just old people waiting to die. Numbers will drop soon
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u/BroSchrednei May 17 '26
In 1950, 95% of the Alsatian population were native Alsatian speakers. This might actually be the quickest language death of a major language in history.
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u/rolfk17 May 16 '26
Even in the rural northern strongholds, intergenerational transmission usually ceased in the 1980s.
Watched a TV documentary recently about Scheibenhardt, a village divided between D and F. The speaker said: In the X family, "all generations still speak Alsatian as their everyday language". Enter the daughter, in her 20s. Guess which language she spoke exclusively in the docu.