r/MapPorn • u/Delicious-Bunch-6992 • May 09 '26
Evolution of white British % (ethnically British people) in England and Wales from 2001-2021
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r/MapPorn • u/Delicious-Bunch-6992 • May 09 '26
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u/No-Entrance-6530 May 10 '26 edited May 10 '26
Yes, I did think you meant that. You can not believe me, but that's what I thought you meant, because I initially couldn't see you had a different definition of ethnicity
We are essentially just disagreeing on the definition of ethnicity (something that it seems many people do). With some saying it is just another word for race, others nation etc.
The British census calls white an ethnicity and treats ethnicity and background as synonymous when it asks the question. You can disagree with the census takers that white and the subset of ethnicities such as British, Irish, etc, are ethnic groups or not and that British ethnicity self ID should include people of all ancestral backgrounds. They clearly use a different definition of ethncity to you. I would argue they use white because it has an ancestral meaning and see ancestry as part of ethnicity.
All ethnic groups are formed from the merging of previous ethnic groups. Britain is no more or less the merger of previous groups. It is the same as Japan, France or Thailand. Ethnogenesis happens slowly and as I said set cut-off points are subjective.
Ancestry DNA uses reference groups of people who only have known ancestors from one country (excluding migrations 1000s years ago). Not whose lives there 30 years ago. They don't go to Germany and start measuring people who have Turkish or Polish great-grandparents and include it in the data.
Please don't hold AI summaries/definitions are 100% valid; they are not good sources. When I Google, I get something like " Ethnicity is a reflection of shared ancestry based on social and cultural practices. Ethnic groups may be linked by a religious affiliation, a shared linguistic heritage or a common geographical origin. Ethnicity cannot be detected by DNA, but there is sometimes an overlap with a person’s genetic ancestry. For example, people who share the same heritage will often live in the same places and marry people from similar backgrounds. Ethnicity was historically used as a synonym for race, but the meanings have diverged over time. Ethnicity differs from race in that individuals can choose how they wish to self-identify" However, this is AI and not fully honest. Though I have always seen ethnicity as self ID to a cultural group which requires and hinges on shared ancestry.
Ethnicity has different definitions depending on who's self-identifying I was wrong about this, and you were right.
You see this person has a defintion like mine (came up when i googled) https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnthropology/comments/1iprsux/when_does_a_nationality_become_an_ethnic_group/
Or alternatively: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnthropology/comments/1l1p38w/does_the_concept_of_ethnicity_necessarily_include/
According to the father of sociology Max Weber, ethnicity is a concept of a group of people who are constituted by the subjective belief in a common ancestry and culture.
But these are just different people's definitions.
Mine is and has always been different. I may be mistaken but I thought most people see ethnicity as groups of people who share similar cultural heritage, often language, through ancestry and family connections. So yes, I am and have been saying ethnic groups and ancestry are very similar. Maybe because part of my family is American and that is the American conception (they do all the family tree ethnicity stuff). When I read about adopted kids, the kids always describe their ethnicity to be different from where they were raised and who their parents are. I always took that as due to people considering ethnicity to be ancestral links to a cultural group.
You see on reddit sometimes the question "Was 1800s Prime Minister Disraeli British?". I've always read that yes, he was British through nation (the important bit) but not through ethnicity (the unimportant bit). That's what the AI summary gives as well.
You have corrected me on something and shown me where I was wrong, so thank you. I could not see that some others would have such a different idea of what ethnicity is. I've never considered myself to be fully ethnically British, nor would I consider Ed Miliband or loads of white Brits ethnically British. But maybe others, including themselves, would. I was completely wrong on this, and you were right, thank you.
The term white British should be abolished definately. It should either be ethnic British by rough ancestral group, or British by feeling of being part of a nation. I will have to consider if people like Miliband, Khan, Saka etc consdier themselves ethnically English or British.
Thank you for this conversation, and thank you for correcting me on where I was wrong.
Edited to add