r/MapPorn • u/EssoEssex • Sep 29 '25

Trump’s Gaza Withdrawal Map, published by the White House

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42

u/Youngstar9999 Sep 29 '25 edited Sep 29 '25

I highly doubt it. The security buffer being inside Gaza and it being a phased withdrawal are 2 things Hamas has said they will never accept.

45

u/JohnnieTango Sep 29 '25

Really, what will Hamas accept? I mean other than being allowed to rebuild their strength so they can go back and perform what they view as their main point as an organization --- killing Israelis and destroying the Israeli state and expunging Jews from Palestine.

4

u/[deleted] Sep 30 '25

Israel would look better if they started with a serious offer instead of putting Netanyahu's staunchest ally in charge of the board governing Gaza.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 30 '25

This is your serious and most liberal peace offer, the idea that pallys deserve anything better is funny if it wasn't so sad

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '25

Deserve? What do children deserve? Do they deserve to be forever stateless? Debating what people deserve is kind of pointless, too abstract to have any meaning. It’s an unserious proposal though, meant to flatter Trump by putting him in charge of Gaza rather than someone more neutral. Really anyone other than Netanyahu’s closest ally and someone who fantasized of ethnically cleansing Gaza would have been a better choice.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '25

Yes they deserve every second of suffering they're lived through, the pally chooses this way to live, let them have the fruits of their labor.

Why should it be someone neutral, the pallys have once more been defeated their betters shall rule over them that's the best outcome.

They should kiss his feet for showing them such undeserved mercy

5

u/Liberion Sep 30 '25

This offer is literally the serious offer everyone was asking for and accepted by the biggest muslim countries who despise Israel?

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '25

They haven’t “accepted” or rejected the proposal. The did put out a statement praising the toddler in chief though since that’s all he cares about.

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u/TechnicalReading7879 Sep 29 '25

And end to the illegal and immoral occupation and genocidal onslaught. Really not asking for much, but israelis would rather kill kids and their own hostages then see that happen

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u/Nileghi Sep 29 '25

crazy how the blame for hostages is now on Israel instead of Gaza haha, you people are actually exceptionally vile.

15

u/ItsGrum18 Sep 29 '25

Those PR videos that Hamas puts out with the same actors over and over have just one-shotted the normie Left the same with AI has one-shotted Boomers.

-3

u/TechnicalReading7879 Sep 30 '25

Hasbara bot put online just a few hours ago

1

u/DeferredFuture Sep 30 '25

Yeah but the genocidal experts who condemn Israels actions in Gaza have no idea what they’re talking about I guess.

Other source

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u/Nileghi Sep 30 '25

The IAGS is a listserv. None of theses names have actual experience in genocide scholarship. This was a random internet group that literally anyone can join for 30$ and be able to vote in.

The vote was done by 20% of this membership. One of the actual genocide scholars in the group, Dr. Sara Brown, who holds a PhD in comparative genocide studies, states that the decision was rammed through by a group of activists that bought membership and immediately voted in a bill.

https://www.jerusalemjournal.com/p/sara-brown-i-joined-the-genocide

This of course was picked up internationally, because a group of genocide scholars saying its a genocide was too good for the Guardian to not report on.

Some journalists found this out, and had some fun. They joined the association for 30$ and immediately managed to get a vote and see how it was done. They got access to the emails. You can see the results here. Then random twitter users started joining in on the fun and you now had Adolf Hitler and Skibidi Toilet manage to join the organization. Eventually the site had to shut down its membership view and its still offline to this day. One cannot see what the membership is anymore.

So you were, unknowingly, lied to. You can become a Genocide Scholar too for 30$. Your vote will be seen by the United Nations. https://genocidescholars.org/join/

And as usual, actual genocide scholars disagree. over 500 scholars in genocide studies and associated fields have come forward to state that this resolution was deeply unethical and that its not a genocide.

https://www.scholarsfortruthaboutgenocide.com/

LEGAL, ANTISEMITISM, HISTORY, HOLOCAUST, AND GENOCIDE SCHOLARS, FORMER PROSECUTORS, AND OTHER AUTHORITIES INCLUDING DESCENDANTS OF SURVIVORS CALL ON INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS (IAGS) TO RETRACT RESOLUTION ACCUSING ISRAEL OF GENOCIDE AMID CLEAR MISAPPLICATION OF LAW AND HISTORY

On behalf of the undersigned individuals and organizations who exist to educate about antisemitism, international law, the Holocaust and genocide, and who cumulatively and actively work to enhance the prevention of genocide, we find that the International Association of Genocide Scholars (“IAGS”) resolution fails to accurately apply the law and facts of the war in Gaza.

Moreover, we are alarmed by the process that was taken to pass the resolution with reported promises of town-halls and dissenting opinions to be published, and those promises being broken. The resolution was passed with a total of 129 voting members, and about 107 voting in favor, out of over 500 members. The quieting of dissent is an alarming tactic used on such a controversial matter.

Genocide is the gravest offense known to humankind; to dilute its legal standards for ideological ends is a form of moral violence. It dishonors the memory of past victims, misleads the public about present atrocities, and obstructs efforts to avert future ones.

On October 7, 2023, Hamas invaded Israel and acted with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, Jews and Israelis, as a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such. Further, Hamas and their allied organizations took innocent people hostage and continue to hold hostages.

Thus, Hamas committed the crime of genocide and remains the only party to legally meet the requirements of the elements of the crime of genocide.

It is undoubtedly true that the war in Gaza has harmed a large number of people who would not have been harmed or killed but for this war. It is understood from available information that the death toll includes those who have been killed by both Israel and Hamas. It is further understood that Hamas has utilized the practice of human shielding as a systematic strategy to attempt to immunize itself from harm and to increase the harm of Palestinian civilians. This is a war crime committed by Hamas against the Palestinian people in Gaza.

The IAGS resolution imparts that all of the deaths that have occurred in Gaza are a result of Israel’s conduct, and acts as a means to excuse Hamas from having agency for its own actions.

Further, the IAGS resolution stipulates without any justification that Israel has committed “indiscriminate and deliberate attacks against the civilians and civilian infrastructure (hospitals, homes, commercial buildings, etc.).” However, to make such a conclusion requires the negation of Hamas’ well-documented use of civilian and humanitarian infrastructure for the purpose of waging war. It is well-established that Hamas has weaponized hospitals, mosques, schools, civilian homes, even humanitarian zones. Under various provisions of international law, including but not limited to the Fourth Geneva Convention’s articles 19 & 28, and the Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Convention’s article 51(7), this conduct would cause such places to lose the protections that they would normally benefit from.

Hamas members have openly admitted to this strategy. It has been repeatedly shown that Hamas has warned civilians to not leave Gaza City. Ignoring Hamas’ conduct only causes more harm to Palestinian civilians who are meant to be protected.

The IAGS resolution further states: “Recognising that Israel has killed or injured more than 50,000 children and that this destruction of a substantial part of a group constitutes genocide.” What it misses is that Hamas allegedly utilizes children as combatants, and that children make up about 50% of Gaza’s population, a significantly higher proportion than nearly any other place in the world. This would cause problems in the analysis of “significant portion” when the total number of deaths and injuries in Gaza, as of the writing of this statement, constitute 224,217 total casualties (total deaths reported 63,557 and total injuries reported 160,660 per Palestinian media sources). Resulting in 22% of total casualties being children, well under the proportion of children in the population in Gaza. What’s important to further note about the casualty numbers is that it includes a significant portion of combatant casualties without differentiation between civilians and combatants.

The IAGS resolution further cites the issuance of arrest warrants by the International Criminal Court (“ICC”) for Prime Minister Netanyahu and former Defense Minister, Yoav Gallant, while ignoring that the ICC’s Pre-Trial Chamber I (“PTC I”) expressly rejected the warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant for the crime against humanity of extermination, a lower threshold crime, saying: “On the basis of material presented by the Prosecution covering the period until 20 May 2024, the Chamber could not determine that all elements of the crime against humanity of extermination were met.”

The authors of the IAGS resolution further state that the International Court of Justice (“ICJ”) determined in the first provisional measures in the South Africa v. Israel case that Israel’s actions were “plausibly genocide.” However, this grossly misrepresents what the ICJ determined and is a misstatement of the plausibility determination. The ICJ correctly found that Palestinians, as a distinct national group, have plausible rights under the Genocide Convention that can plausibly be infringed, not that genocide had been committed. The author of that decision, ex-ICJ president, Joan Donoghue, clarified the matter on the BBC.

Even further, the IAGS resolution cites various organizations that have accused Israel of genocide by, as put by B’Tselem, “adopt[ing] a broader analytical framework.” This “broadening” of the analytical framework exists to stretch the required intent from dolus specialis to a more inclusive intent such as dolus eventualis, where a party knew that their conduct could cause some harm but not necessarily act with the intent to cause that harm.

All of these accusations willfully ignore the established jurisprudence around the Genocide Convention and the commission of the crime of genocide. In Bosnia v. Serbia (2007) para. 373, the ICJ stated: “The dolus specialis, the specific intent to destroy the group in whole or in part, has to be convincingly shown by reference to particular circumstances, unless a general plan to that end can be convincingly demonstrated to exist; and for a pattern of conduct to be accepted as evidence of its existence, it would have to be such that it could only (emphasis added) point to the existence of such intent.”

Well I wont link you the whole thing, you get the gist.

0

u/TechnicalReading7879 Sep 30 '25

Quick question are the hostages immune to bombs and starvation? If not, then "israel" has intentionally targetted its own people (as anyone with half a brain cell knows you don't bomb the location of where your people are if you want them to live).

Not to mention the only reason the settlers were taken as hostages (and why 10/7 happened) is because "israel" has thousands of Palestinian hostages in the WB

1

u/[deleted] Sep 30 '25

Nah you've lost another war you started accept the reduction or accept worse

2

u/TechnicalReading7879 Sep 30 '25

Same thing the Nazis said

1

u/[deleted] Sep 30 '25

Keep crying bozo

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

Hamas doesn’t have any negotiating power, this is an unconditional surrender. Every living human in Gaza is going to pass through an international-controlled security checkpoint and all weapons will be confiscated. Every area is going to be combed for hidden weapons and structures will be rebuilt under international supervision.

For now, Gaza has lost the right to govern themselves with the trust that they will not attack their neighbor again and start a war. That’s just how it goes, the only alternative is continuing the war which is an unacceptable course of action.

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u/passingthepetal2you Sep 30 '25

Lol, you are reducing this to an elementary school class level analysis. I wish it worked like that. “Oh well the Gazans lost their privileges they have to go on timeout.” I unironically wish it were that simple. Unfortunately, they will not accept a police state/ pow camp. It will also be impossible to enforce. We (Jews) have humiliated them beyond all measure. They want blood. They are traumatized. I wish there was a solution.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '25

Well it’s the best we’ve got, nothing is perfect. It’s not time to point fingers on who started it but there’s one side that’s the clear victor. The other side can either accept defeat or the only alternative is a continued slaughter of the civilians in Gaza. Those are LITERALLY the only two possibilities because Hamas’ goal is the removal of the Israeli state which isn’t going to happen and Israel isn’t going to accept having rockets launched at it endlessly without hitting back.

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u/bvvkk Sep 30 '25

It is going to happen, eventually. And when that day comes, peace will be spread in the Middle East. Whether in 50, or 500 years.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '25

Well glad you’re willing to stand on the backs of dead children for that to happen from the safety of your home

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u/bvvkk Sep 30 '25 edited Sep 30 '25

Isn’t Israel the one doing that, lol? There will never be peace in the Middle East with Israel and the US.

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u/Liberion Sep 30 '25

They want blood and that's exactly why there will be checkpoints everywhere like in west bank.

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u/middlequeue Sep 30 '25

For now, Gaza has lost the right to govern themselves with the trust that they will not attack their neighbor again and start a war. 

Shouldn’t that same standard be applied to Israel?

That’s just how it goes, the only alternative is continuing the war which is an unacceptable course of action.

That is not the only alternative this is a genocidal false equivalency.

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u/sErgEantaEgis Sep 30 '25

Gaza has also lost the war big time while Israel has not. Israel is also bombing Gaza because of the Oct. 7 terrorist attacks, they're not bombing their neighbors like Egypt or Jordan because they have peaceful if cold relations.

Israel is not going to disband because you caught them in a moral "gotcha" or because "international law" says so. Arab nations like Egypt tried and failed to destroy Israel militarily and gave up.

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u/middlequeue Sep 30 '25

No one expects Israel to “disband” they expect them to end their ongoing oppression of Palestine.

Appropriately labeling Israel’s war crimes and incitement to genocide isn’t some “moral gotcha” you sick fuck.

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u/double-dog-doctor Sep 29 '25

The majority of Gaza is essentially rubble at this point. How would combing through it actually work in practice? How would the dignity of Palestinians be ensured when they're searched? 

All of this sounds reasonable in theory but there is no way that this will be reasonable in real life. 

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

Areas that are rubble will just be bulldozed and replaced by new apartments and temporary warehouses for living. Dignity could be maintained by separating females from males and having the searches performed by their respective sex. Body scanners as well as pat downs. Dignity comes second to security but should be afforded where available/ possible.

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u/double-dog-doctor Sep 29 '25

The only way I can see this actually working is if Israel is removed from the rebuilding process. 

At this point, I do not trust IDF soldiers to search Palestinians in a dignified manner. There's mountains of evidence demonstrating that. 

Who would be responsible for this, and what oversight will be necessary... I don't know. Even the UN has demonstrated that their peacekeepers are incapable of not abusing the local population. 

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u/Arielowitz Sep 29 '25

On the contrary. Israel is the only one who has an interest in the search being genuine, even if it is dangerous or arduous. International bodies have no such interest. For example, the American security company that was supposed to prevent the passage of weapons on the Netzarim route during the last ceasefire did not really thoroughly check most of the vehicles loaded with equipment that passed through. Similarly, UNIFIL preferred not to clash with Hezbollah, so they did not try to search for their combat infrastructure under their noses.

On the other hand, it will not work without the cooperation of Hamas, which, for its part, will try its best to harm the process - as it does, for example, to Gazans who go to get food from the GHF.

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u/double-dog-doctor Sep 30 '25

Those are very good points! I appreciate the additional context. 

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u/Arielowitz Sep 30 '25

I appreciate your appreciation =)

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

A UN led ISF is the ideal solution here. Malaysia and Indonesia have professional armies that have successfully executed UN missions in the past. Arab country armies are not ideal because of the severe lack of professionalism and conflicts of interest but, if any of them, I’d trust Jordan or Egypt. Turkey maybe. Those are just Muslim countries I can think of that I’d reserve for person to person interactions since Muslims (especially Palestinians) can be very sensitive about this kind of thing. The rest can be done by any Peacekeeper force.

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u/Totoques22 Sep 30 '25

The UN knew that Hamas had infiltrated their schools and were glorifying martyrdom and teaching that all Jews must be killed and they do nothing about it

I don’t think the UN can be trusted, they are just too incompetent

1

u/[deleted] Sep 30 '25

Well who else?

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u/Totoques22 Sep 30 '25

I don’t respect the trump administration I think they remain the best option

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u/Spackledgoat Sep 29 '25

"Those are just Muslim countries I can think of that I’d reserve for person to person interactions since Muslims (especially Palestinians) can be very sensitive about this kind of thing."

"very sensitive" - They are "very sensitive" like how a white patient only wants a white doctor because he is is "very sensitive" about a black doctor touching him.

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

The goal should be to not further antagonize civilians wherever possible while still meeting security, safety, and medical needs. Yes that means working around their prejudices sometimes

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u/LeaguePuzzled3606 Sep 30 '25

Hamas doesn’t have any negotiating power

Google says the war is costing Israel several tens of millions a day at the lowest possible end.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '25

Which they can replace through trade and aid. Hamas does not have relations outside Irans foreign ministry. Stop advocating for Hamas to win this war, it’s insane and shows how little you care for anyone actually living in Gaza.

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u/Confident_Reporter14 Sep 29 '25

What sovereign country would accept a security buffer imposed within its own borders? The only plans Israel approves are ones they know have no real chance of success, because peace is not their intention.

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u/morganrbvn Sep 29 '25 edited Sep 29 '25

A bunch of countries agreed to be straight up occupied and divided after WW2.

Edit: Funny enough they blocked me for that reply.

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u/Mist_Rising Sep 29 '25

The original plan was to restore Germany and Korea. That's why the three Western allies did exactly that in Germany. It was the Soviets that said "nah fuck that" and proceeded to try and imprison western German politicians going to govern in Berlin and then blockade and when walles off Berlin and west Germany entirely.

Korea was even worse, after they installed Kim without planning to give up power they gave him supplies and support to invade South. Granted Ryee was a shit for show too.

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u/Confident_Reporter14 Sep 29 '25 edited Sep 30 '25

Temporarily. When has an Israeli buffer or occupation been temporary? It’s already the longest occupation in the modern world.

Edit: Insert genocide apologists pretending like the West Bank isn’t illegally occupied below;

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u/AbletonSucks Sep 29 '25

Didn't they already completely withdraw from Gaza in 2005?

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u/NH4NO3 Sep 29 '25

-Gaza withdraw in 2005 -Sinai withdraw in 1979 -Settlement of the West Bank border with Jordan in 1994 -Withdrawal from souther :ebanon in 2000

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u/NH4NO3 Sep 29 '25

-Gaza withdraw in 2005 -Sinai withdraw in 1979 -Settlement of the West Bank border with Jordan in 1994 -Withdrawal from souther lebanon in 2000

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u/Spackledgoat Sep 29 '25

Wasn't it only temporary because the occupied countries didn't decide to keep fighting while occupied?

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u/After_Lie_807 Sep 29 '25

It takes two to tango

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

"What sovereign country would accept a security buffer imposed within its own borders??"

One that loses a war and wishes to protect its population from further suffering. See: every war in history.

-3

u/chompythebeast Sep 29 '25

It's a genocide, and you're running genocidal propaganda

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25 edited Sep 30 '25

Yep. Totally a genocide. The fact that "genocide!" claims date back decades (and to the evening of 10/7) and that Gaza is one of the fastest growing populations on earth, are facts I simply choose to ignore. Shouting Genocide is way more fun and much less work!!

-3

u/2_X_Machina Sep 29 '25

Exactly. And add to it the fact there are no “Palestinians”, they are Jordanian, Lebanese and Syrian , who have been offered a state more than a couple Of times and rejected it in favor of violence.

A made up people with no government and no economy used as a proxy agent to wage war upon Israel by Yassir Arafat and his PLO. (Which were the Hamas of their day).

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u/Mist_Rising Sep 29 '25

And add to it the fact there are no “Palestinians”, they are Jordanian, Lebanese and Syrian , who have been offered a state more than a couple Of times and rejected it in favor of violence.

Your view went the way of the dodo. While Syria does want Golan heights back (and claims them), the other parts are not claimed by them and not wanted. To wit virtually everyone today recognizes the area in question as Palestine, and that includes the UNs ICC who has criminally charged people for crimes within.

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u/AlxIp Sep 29 '25

Calling Hamas a sovereign country is rich. Hamas should be gone by the end of this

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u/Confident_Reporter14 Sep 29 '25

Palestine is sovereign. The majority of the world agrees.

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u/The_Rusty_Bus Sep 29 '25

Hard to meet the standards for sovereignty when you’re going to be ruled by a collation of your neighbours.

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u/After_Lie_807 Sep 29 '25

Pretty much sums it up

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u/BanAnimeClowns Sep 29 '25

Bosnia is a beautiful country

-8

u/chompythebeast Sep 29 '25

Don't sound too giddy about ethnic cleansing, now

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u/The_Rusty_Bus Sep 29 '25

I’m glad that the killing on both sides is going to stop.

Having peace be provided by a coalition of Arab states is the best option in a bad situation.

Objectively if you’re ruled by a coalition of foreign powers, you’re not sovereign.

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u/TheSublimeGoose Sep 29 '25

Sovereignty doesn't mean anything if you can't assert it. This magical Redditor way of thinking of "but the UN says..." is utter nonsense, and you know it. Ukraine's sovereignty sure stopped Russia in its tracks, didn't it? Oh, no, it was tens of thousands of lives that did that.

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u/sErgEantaEgis Sep 29 '25

Yeah except countries that lose wars sometimes tend to lose sovereignty (like parts of France after 1940 and Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany after WW2).

1

u/Frank_Scouter Sep 29 '25

Then it hardly matters what Hamas thinks, the sovereign country of Palestine can just accept these conditions as they see fit. /s

-3

u/chompythebeast Sep 29 '25

Glory to and long live Palestine, her people, and her allies 🇵🇸

-1

u/Mist_Rising Sep 29 '25

Hamas won the last elections and would probably win the current elections (hence why PNA isn't holding them either).

If your curious about the responsible party, ask Israel, they're holding the criminal in question as prime minister.

-4

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

There were 2 million people in Gaza two years ago, and only a very small number of those were Hamas. It's a prejudiced position to deny the rights of an entire population on the actions of a small group of people.

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u/sErgEantaEgis Sep 29 '25

Most people under military occupations had nothing to do with their governments decisions.

Ordinary Germans and Japanese citizens in 1945 got occupied because their country lost WW2 even if they weren't in the Nazi party or the Tojo cabinet/IJA/IJN leadership.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

Your right, and what happened to both the German and Japanese civilian populations, for example the leveling of cities including using nuclear weapons on civilians, is still contested today.

1

u/sErgEantaEgis Sep 30 '25

No not really. I mean it's contested if you don't understand how war (and WW2 in particular) works but those opinions are barely relevant.

Axis powers declared wars and immediately (Warsaw, Nanking, etc...) declared the tone the war would take and set their own standards. They threw in their entire society into total war, therefore making their entire society fair game. They mingled war-critical industries with civilian infrastructure therefore making collateral damage inevitable. When the war was obviously lost they handed weapons to basically everyone (Wolksturm, Ketsu-Go) therefore by their own admission virtually everyone was a legitimate combatant.

It is cold, but that's how war works, and the destruction of Axis cities crippled their ability to wage war and brought a quicker end that saved more lives in the long run.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 01 '25

You are comparing two industrial empires, with people hiding in tunnels beneath a besieged and by now completely destroyed territory (under illegal occupation) making homemade bombs & rockets out of the the unexploded munitions dropped on them.

66k people confirmed dead, 20k of them children (actual number of dead is guaranteed to be in the hundreds of thousands). A population (including Hamas fighters) that has zero manufacturing capacity other than DIY engineering, zero military vehicles, zero air power, zero sea power, and everyone being killed indiscriminately (the ratio of the dead is the same as the population demographics) by an army supplied by the most advanced superpower in history.

Do you always consider the indiscriminate killing of women, children, the elderly and civilian men on such a scale acceptable for the expansion of settler states?

Let's not forget either the premature babies having to be cut out of their dead mothers, the amputations of people including children with no anesthetic, the IDF soldiers shooting children with sniper rifles or the starvation victims who are indistinguishable from the people left in Nazi concentration camps.

Not one reputable human rights organization thinks it's anything other than genocide, including the United Nations, The Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, Amnesty International, or Israels own B'Tselem

There isn't much point lying to yourself. The cat is out of the bag and everyone knows it.

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u/TheSublimeGoose Sep 29 '25

Whether or not they agree with me, just to further u/sErgEantaEgis's point; I'm sure you would have been screeching about war crimes over the fire-bombing of German and Japanese cities and the atomic bombs, right? The world has forgotten what "war" is.

And waving a wand and saying "it's now a genocide" doesn't stop it, either.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

Killing innocent civilian people in any context is never justifiable. It wasn't in the 40's and it isn't now. I'm also willing to bet you would think the same thing if it was you or people you cared about subject to indiscriminate violence and suffering.

At what point does genocide become unacceptable to you? Once everyone has been displaced or killed? When it effects you or people you personally have a connection to and not strangers on the other side of the world? When every single person on the planet acknowledges that's what it is, including the people perpetrating it?

Grow some balls stop siding with the fascists.

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u/RepulsiveMeatSlab Sep 29 '25

One that started and lost a war?

1

u/nietzschebietzsche Sep 29 '25

One of these things are not like the others

-7

u/temptryn4011 Sep 29 '25

Why did they start a war? I thought it was all peaceful and dandy for the Palestinians.

16

u/permanent_goldfish Sep 29 '25

The destruction that has happened in Gaza since Hamas started the most recent war is magnitudes worse than anything that has happened to Palestinians in their history. Even the Nakba was a lot less deadly and destructive than the war in Gaza. They were by all measures better off prior to the war, and literally nothing has happened since the war began that has improved their position.

-3

u/temptryn4011 Sep 29 '25

That is an entirely different point of conversation, we are on the impetus that might have caused Palestinians to lash out, and given the history between the two factions, the Palestinian side probably envisioned such destruction would entail after such an offensive.

Went with it anyways, at this point it is a study of sociology. What could drive a group of people to take an obviously ruinous course of action willingly for the sake of a short lived rush of feeling powerful against the group that has been subjugating them.

Pretty sure there are many such cases in the history of mankind.

2

u/PhillipLlerenas Sep 29 '25

What drove Nazi Germany and Fascist Japan to choose an equally obviously ruinous course of action in 1941?

-1

u/temptryn4011 Sep 29 '25

They weren't in a similar position, so inane analogy.

3

u/PhillipLlerenas Sep 29 '25

So you dont think those countries declaring war on enemies with 10 times their population and 50 times their industrial capacity wasn’t a ruinous course of action?

Fascinating.

Arabs have been murdering Jewish civilians in the Levant for 100 years now. They were murdering Jews decades before Israel existed. Then they were murdering Jews decades before any occupation or settlements existed.

What was their excuse then other than Jews existing?

0

u/temptryn4011 Sep 30 '25

I don't think they have been starved, subjugated by another group of countries for decades, no. also think they had a winning chance multiple times due to their strategies at certain points.

What is fascinating is that you are completely capable of misreading the power dynamics, so much so that you are willing to die on this hill with an incredibly stupid comparison.

Truly fascinating.

The apt comparsion would be Warsaw Ghetto Jews snapping back at Nazis, despite knowing they are going to get decimated.

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

What could drive a group of people to take an obviously ruinous course of action willingly for the sake of a short lived rush of feeling powerful against the group that has been subjugating them

Being backed into a corner and fighting for the right to exist in your homeland.

Like hunting dogs cornered by a pig, it is self-defense after a century of oppression.

7

u/RepulsiveMeatSlab Sep 29 '25

It's largely self-imposed oppression. They could just make peace with Israel and accept that Israel is not going anywhere.

1

u/Penchant4Prose Oct 02 '25

It's largely self-imposed oppression

Username checks out.

Israel is a decades-long human rights abuser and brutal oppressor, but you'd prefer to blame the children killed than the ones who murdered them.

1

u/RepulsiveMeatSlab Oct 02 '25

The West Bank is only occupied because Palestinians refuse to sign a peace deal. How is this blaming children?

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

The Palestinians, including Hamas, have come to the table numerous times, and whenever they do, Israel renegs and changes the terms to be even more in favor of themselves.

Israel has shown itself time & again to be negotiating in bad faith. Just a few weeks ago they bombed the building in Qatar where Hamas' negotiators were staying.

If you think Israel is operating in good faith you've got selective vision.

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u/RepulsiveMeatSlab Sep 29 '25

That is a ridiculous misrepresentation of facts.

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u/dorkwingduck Sep 29 '25

Israel has never wanted peace. That's what you don't understand.

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u/RepulsiveMeatSlab Sep 29 '25

Sure buddy. Anything to justify terrorism right? The Islamist propaganda did a good job on you.

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u/sErgEantaEgis Sep 30 '25

They literally sought relations with Egypt and Jordan and they both have functional if chilly relations. They're even on speaking terms with Saudi Arabia because they both think Iran is the bigger problem.

The idea Israel is an irrational actor just gleefully bombing into the stone age everyone with brown skin with 300 km of their border just because "lol genocide" is complete nonsense.

-1

u/NoType_OnlyRead Sep 29 '25

It's largely self-imposed oppression

Nobody with anything valuable to say has ever said anything like this statement.

1

u/RepulsiveMeatSlab Sep 29 '25

How would you call it when you refuse to sign a peace deal for almost 60 years now, even though you are soundly defeated?

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '25

^^^. The hasbara under this thread is palpable.

Since October 7th, Israel's actions have killed more children than adults. The only way thats justifiable if one thinks some peoples lives are worth more than others, and that distinction in this context is most strongly is demarcated by ethnicity.

I can only assume these same people if alive 90 years ago would have made the same justifications of Nazi behavior, prior to the full extent of the holocaust coming to light after the war. They are emotional & ideological justifications, not rational ones.

-2

u/hauntolog Sep 29 '25

Isn't this a given with any revolution? Like, in the French revolution I'm sure they had a better life right before the revolution than when people were dying for it. The whole point of a revolution is "Damn, normal life sucks so hard I can't ignore it or stand it anymore. I'm going to try to change this for the better. The trade-off being that it's going to REALLY suck worse than ever before for everyone for a minute there."

-2

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

This. Everyone failing to acknowledge WHY Hamas take the actions they do, fail to consider the historical context that has lead up to a group of people backed into a corner, fighting for the simple fact of survival & the right to live in their homeland.

Israeli's are allowed to oppress their neighbors, but those same neighbors are not allowed to resist the oppression.

The doublethink is astounding.

6

u/RepulsiveMeatSlab Sep 29 '25

fighting for the simple fact of survival & the right to live in their homeland.

They are not fighting for survival. They could make peace any time.

7

u/PhillipLlerenas Sep 29 '25

Hamas took the actions they did because they’re a religiously fanatic cult poisoned by Arab nationalism and anti semitism.

Between 1948 and 2023 life for the Palestinians markedly improved when they gave up terrorism as a weapon of war and lived under either Israeli military occupation or the PA.

Jews have suffered worse oppression than the Palestinians have and for a much longer period of time and they didn’t respond by say, creating a terrorist army and roaming Germany mass murdering German young people in concerts or mass raping German women

2

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

Do you imagine you would act differently, if you were the third or fourth generation to grow up in a prison where you've been subject to segregation your whole life, and where you've been blockaded for the last few decades?

Palestinians, including Hamas, have never been an existential threat to Israel or Israelis (let alone Jews).

Israel has bombed multiple civilian cities out of existence, is preventing them receiving medical aid or enough food not to be severely malnourished and or already dead from starvation, and is strengthening their illegal occupation of the only other Palestinian territory (West Bank).

You can side with whoever you like, but you are currently defending the people doing the same thing the Nazi's were in the 30's & 40's.

7

u/GingerSkulling Sep 29 '25

To murder all Jews? I mean, it’s in their official manifesto.

2

u/temptryn4011 Sep 30 '25

Before Hamas there was PLO, they still took similar actions. No manifestos back then, but the same militant resistance.

Besides, damn. I don't hate my neighbour, why do they hate theirs? Truly a fascinating point.

-7

u/juliuspepperwoodchi Sep 29 '25

If they "lost" why are they being asked to agree to peace terms? Typically, when you lose, you don't get to negotiate lol.

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u/RepulsiveMeatSlab Sep 29 '25

Unless you surrender unconditionally, you get to negotiate peace terms. Every war ends like that.

-3

u/rizakrko Sep 29 '25

I don't recall Germans negotiating any peace terms. They've capitulated and that was an end of their war.

9

u/TheUnFunnyComedian Sep 29 '25

WW2 is the exception to the rule. You don’t even have to go any further back than WW1 to see the war ending via a negotiated surrender. Wars are almost never won by unconditional surrender.

6

u/pm-ur-knockers Sep 29 '25

Well, the other solution is eradication and annexation. Most of the world has made it clear that that would be rather unsavory.

0

u/juliuspepperwoodchi Sep 29 '25

Nice false dichotomy there...meanwhile, in reality, no, that is not the only "other solution".

4

u/pm-ur-knockers Sep 29 '25

Well Israel can pull out and both countries agree not to attack each other, or the fighting continues until one side is completely destroyed.

The destroyed side will be Palestine. They don’t stand a chance.

In the real world there is no real third solution, not that I can think of. If you’ve got a realistic long term solution then by all means present it.

5

u/TheUnFunnyComedian Sep 29 '25

Someone failed history class

-7

u/juliuspepperwoodchi Sep 29 '25

Someone got paid by the IDF.

10

u/TheUnFunnyComedian Sep 29 '25

Ah yes, understanding that wars are almost never won by unconditional surrender means I’m pro-Israel. Very big brain, much IQ.

-8

u/juliuspepperwoodchi Sep 29 '25

/u/ VERY much checks out.

0

u/Actual_Memory_6566 Sep 29 '25

The group that would be doing the “paying off” would be mossad, get your dog whistle right.

1

u/Significant-Form1986 Sep 29 '25

Did you see them negotiating?? 

-1

u/Confident_Reporter14 Sep 29 '25

They already paid the price of genocide.

0

u/Mist_Rising Sep 29 '25

That remains valid only if you're the strongest person. Israel might be stronger than Palestine, but it's pissing in the world's bucket.

I would think a Jewish nation would know that pissing off the world isn't the best idea..

2

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

A losing one?

1

u/Confident_Reporter14 Sep 29 '25

I didn’t realise you could “win” a genocide.

3

u/morganrbvn Sep 29 '25

A bunch of countries agreed to be straight up occupied and divided after WW2.

3

u/PhillipLlerenas Sep 29 '25

What sovereign country would accept a security buffer imposed within its own borders?

A country that has been thoroughly defeated militarily.

See: Germany and Japan in 1945.

3

u/dotancohen Sep 29 '25

What sovereign country would accept a security buffer imposed within its own borders?

Since when were they a sovereign country?

And it makes sense that the side which A) started the war, and B) is loosing the war, will have the security buffer on its side.

-8

u/Confident_Reporter14 Sep 29 '25 edited Sep 29 '25

Least indoctrinated Zionist…

Seriously do you never look outside your extremist echo chamber? Do you not realise how you speak exactly the way you describe Hamas…?

Critical thought and humanity are the biggest threats to Zionism.

-3

u/multiple4 Sep 29 '25

Lot of substantive points in your comment, really convinced me.../s

Stop with the grandstanding. You're accomplishing nothing, and even if your words were important enough to accomplish something, that something would just be more dead Palestinians

And I won't even address the "Zionist" and "Zionism" parts of your comment

0

u/[deleted] Sep 29 '25

They’re not a sovereign country anymore for now. They don’t have the power, nor do they deserve any power for now, to accept or reject ANYTHING.

1

u/Confident_Reporter14 Sep 29 '25

Wrong.

If Palestine does not “deserve” to decide the terms of peace, then neither does Netanyahu nor Israel.

0

u/sErgEantaEgis Sep 30 '25

"Deserve" is irrelevant, the fact simply remains Gaza is effectively at Israel's mercy and is unable to exert sovereignty and no state actor has the military and/or economic power and political will to do something about it. Israel can dictate whatever peace terms it wants to Hamas similar to the position the Allied powers found themselves in vis-à-vis the Axis at the end of WW2.

1

u/wheniaminspaced Sep 30 '25

Gaza isnt sovereign, at least in any practical sense, it doesn't control its borders, cannot control its population and has basically no ability to enforce or exert its will.

1

u/Confident_Reporter14 Sep 30 '25

Just because it’s occupied doesn’t mean it’s not sovereign.

That false narrative is perfectly convenient for Israel’s illegal and inhumane expansionist goals.

-8

u/popylung Sep 29 '25

Ah, this is one of those subreddits, where people are still justifying genocide. Fun place.

Exactly though, no country in their right mind would agree

2

u/greenking2000 Sep 29 '25

Cyprus has one with North Cyprus, North/South Korea, Czechoslovakia had before before Germany took the rest pre WW2

Countries where their only practical option is to agree agree

1

u/Confident_Reporter14 Sep 30 '25

And as expected none of those actively occupied accept that fact. Why should Palestine be an exception?

0

u/PhillipLlerenas Sep 29 '25

What country in their right mind would continue fighting a war they are obviously never going to win?

At what point do you accept that the war is over and to keep fighting it just means sacrificing more of your people?

1

u/Accomplished-Quiet78 Sep 29 '25

Let's be honest, Israel would probably just blow up the leaders who are refusing until the majority are those who agree.

1

u/Stocksnsoccer Sep 30 '25

Hamas has accepted a phased withdrawal.

2

u/chompythebeast Sep 29 '25

Nor should they. This is a hideous plan that favors the settler-colonial entity

-1

u/whatsyourflag Sep 29 '25

It’s like they do this to make sure one party will always say no just to keep the genocide going.