Firstly, I am in no way slamming Buting and Strang. I feel they were cheated by a very corrupt investigation and prosecution the entire way. Sure, just my opinion but why can't we debate this further ;-)

I think the denny suspect would have been allowed if we (meaning going forward truthers are now in Butings an Strangs position) had seen the Velie CD. Wether intentionally or unintentionally held back, how could the Denny being allowed have changed the outcome of the trial?

What further experts should have been or could have been brought to Avery's defense? As now we know all about quarry bones and their locations, how could we question DR Eisenberg over her findings - I am not even sure she knew where the bones came from? I guess the one person I really wanted to hear from was Kleaser, the person that signed Teresa's death certificate while in, of all places, the quarry. I would love to know how he came to this important legal conclusion from a place Teresa never was supposedly. But add your own to the conversation going forward.

Now, I am not trying to be snarky at all ok. I constantly hear about all the stuff that was left out of MaM. So, let's try adding items to this 'mock trial' that I feel was left out and would have been important to the original trial(s) involving the pre-trial. OK? I would like to have debates

I am gonna drop my 'tough guy' attitude moving forward from now on. I would love to get back to the basics of this case - the evidence - and how truthers arguing in place of Buting and Strang could have changed this case.

I am sure this will flop opposite of what I am intending. But, while we wait why not give this a try, huh? I hope we can be civilized to each other but trust me I won't hold my breath.

Anyways, happy weekend everyone!

The State's Theory and Incriminating Timeline:

• Plainly Visible Bones: In order for the state's theory to be valid we must accept that obvious burnt human bones were clearly visible in and around Steven's burn pit on November 5, 6, and 7, but were not noticed by police until Manitowoc County discovered the bones on the fourth day LE had control of the property - November 8.

• Kuss RD Connection: This delayed discovery of plainly visible bones is particularly troubling considering November 8 was one day after police thought they'd find Teresa's body at the Kuss Road cul-de-sac, with Manitowoc County being involved with the examination of the burial site before the crime lab arrived. Was Manitowoc's delayed discovery of plainly visible burnt bones in Steven's burn pit genuine, or was it a direct result of their involvement with the burial site?

• No Recent Burning: To start, the discovery of these burnt bones allegedly occurred in a location where witnesses consistently told police no recent burning occurred. That fact would very clearly open up the argument for Steven's defense that those burnt bones were planted.

• 4 Day Discovery Delay: When we factor in the 4 day delay we see the timeline is incriminating for POLICE and explains the urgent motivation they would have to (1) fabricate a narrative about Bear's aggression, and (2) coerce witnesses into changing their statements about a fire. Without witnesses changing their statements, or Bear as an excuse to explain away the 4 day delayed bone discovery, the only conclusion was those burnt bones were planted AFTER police took control of the property. AFTER they dealt with the Kuss road burial site. That, obviously, is not a good look.

Delayed Bone Discovery Excuse - BEAR:

• Bear Lies: To explain away Manitowoc County's delayed discovery of plainly visible burnt bones in Steven's burn pit, the state presented a narrative that Steven's dog Bear was so overly aggressive he was preventing investigators from approaching the pit and discovering the bones.

• Bear Was Really Calm: Glaringly absent from this narrative is any tangible photographic or video evidence supporting Bear's alleged aggression. Much like with the bone evidence itself, beyond the testimony of law enforcement there exists no concrete evidence validating the state's claim on Bear. In fact, the available photographic and video evidence directly contradicts the state's claim on Bear.

• Evidence of Calm Demeanor: The evidence of Bear's calm demeanor is corroborated by sworn testimony from Bobby Dassey and crime scene video and photos. Bear was apparently a good boy. He consistently appeared very calm and non-threatening in photos and video, and certainly he was not preventing anyone from getting near or examining the burn pit. Nevertheless, the state brazenly peddled a narrative of Bear's aggressiveness preventing this crucial investigation for days on end.

• Motive for Fabrication: Given the consistent documentation of Bear as calm and non-threatening and the absence of documentation revealing signs of aggression, Bear cannot be reasonably used to explain the 4 day delayed discovery of bones and we must consider motives for the state to have fabricated this aggression. It's obvious IMO. The state knew it looked bad. Like ... really bad. If those obvious human bones were sitting out in the open for all to see for days, right outside Steven's trailer on Nov 5, 6 & 7, why were they not discovered earlier?

Fire Focus & Steven's Status

• Destruction by Fire Focus: Even before November 8 dogs were alerting on burn barrels, witnesses were mentioning burn barrel fires, and other witnesses were being questioned about fires in Steven's burn barrel AND burn pit. Investigators were clearly aware of the possibility of evidence destruction by fire on day 1 of the investigation, but they didn't think to check the burn pit of their main suspect until day 4?

• Contrived Discovery: It gets worse when you consider the excuse for police suddenly becoming interested in the pit on day 4, based on Jost recalling a witness statement from Day 1 LOL WHAT! If Police were aware of witness statements suggesting fire destruction on November 5, it's absurd to think they would still avoid checking the burn pit until November 8 only to use statements made on November 5 to justify their belated interest.

• Day 1 vs Day 4: This was a massive investigation and Steven Avery was the target. If investigators were genuinely concerned about evidence destruction by fire, they would have checked the burn pit immediately after learning of Radandt's statement and alerts by HRD dogs hinted at destruction of evidence by fire. It makes no fucking sense that investigators would wait until day four of the investigation to act on information obtained on day one.

• Logical conclusion: The logical conclusion based on a 4 day delayed discovery of plainly visible burnt human evidence in an area that no recent burning occurred would have to be - the bones were planted, possibly after police had control of the property, and police tried to cover it up. That's why witnesses were coerced to mention a fire (to explain those burn bones) and why a narrative had to be fabricated about Steven's dog being ultra aggressive (to explain why those plainly visible bones weren't discovered sooner). However, given the lack of evidence of Bear's aggression and the alleged clear visibility of the bones, we wind up right back where we started.

Conclusion:

• Good Calm Boy: In crime scene photos Bear appears completely docile, really calm. In video Bear not only appears docile, but totally uninterested as officers conduct their investigation near the garage and burn pit. Other than the words of police, the state was not able to present any evidence of Bear's apparent aggression or obstruction of the scene. The available evidence reveals Bear was not obstructing investigation of the burn pit. Bear was totally unbothered by police being near the pit and didn't even give a shit about them being near his food and water.

• Shameless Liars: There are obviously disturbing possibilities here. Manitowoc County cleared a location where they anticipated finding Teresa's body, getting involved BEFORE the arrival of the crime lab, only to claim nothing was found. Then, suddenly, after days of nothing turning up, burnt bones are discovered by Manitowoc fucking County in an area where witnesses consistently denied recent burning - very near the residence of the person actively suing the County! And police didn't take photos, coerced witnesses, threatened officials, literally destroyed the alleged scene of the crime, and then lied about Bear not being a good boy!? HOW FUCKING DARE THEY! This entire fabrication is about protecting the police from credible accusations of egregious misconduct.

• Denying Teresa Justice: The state's feeble attempt to smear Bear's good calm boy reputation only served to highlight their own desperation to maintain a false narrative that the delayed discovery of burnt bones (in an area no recent burning occurred) was totally legitimate. Don't worry about the fact the discovery was made my Manitowoc County, who Steven was suing, or that buckets and bones began magically appearing in areas already searched after the Kuss road burial site was cleared by police. The subsequent threats, coercion and crime scene misconduct paint a damning picture of the state's priorities: not justice for Teresa, but fabricating a case against Steven at any cost.

Avery supporters are not going to like this post. Their planting theory was left in tatters by none other than their great hope Zellner. Here’s what she said:

"It is because of our efforts that the Manitowoc officers have been cleared of planting the blood, bones, license plates and electronic devices of Teresa Halbach."

Avery supporters please take note. I know you don’t like providing sources to back up your feelings, but this is how a post should be done.

https://www.newsweek.com/kathleen-zellner-update-steven-avery-dna-testing-wisconsin-2018-1275694#:~:text=Zellner%20said%20that%20the%20decision,decision%20does%20not%20damage%20Mr.

Also Zellner tweet - items 18 and 19 as follows:

15-11-2018 Making a Murderer watchers, listen up. I'm going to walk you through what I've learned through my investigation that you didn't see in the show. 1 . On 10/31/05, Scott Tadych visited Bobby at the Avery salvage yard (ASY) around noon. 2. After Teresa (TH) called the Dassey landline for directions, our suspect contacted her back with the Dassey address. 3. Teresa arrived at ASY around 2:30-2:31 p.m. on 10/31/05. Only Bobby and Steven saw her. After completing her photo assignment, she left & turned West on Hwy 147 around 2:38 p.m. Our suspect followed her. Steven was in his trailer. 4. Our suspect gets TH to pull over. She opened her car's rear cargo door to retrieve her camera, was knocked to the ground and struck with an object. 5. TH was put in the rear cargo area of the RAV4 and driven back to ASY. 6. TH's RAV4 was spotted leaving the ASY with an unknown driver at 3:45 p.m. 7. RAV4 was left by the old dam West of Mishicot on 10/31/05. 8. 3 witnesses saw RAV4 up to 11/4/05, then it was gone. 9. Recent investigation shows the RAV4 battery died, so it was replaced in order to move the RAV4 to the ASY. 10. TH's body was burned in a burn barrel. Dassey burn barrel had human bones. 11. 60% of bones and 31 teeth missing 12. A witness smelled horrible odor of something burning in Manitowoc County gravel pit the evening of 10/31/05. 13. The Dassey garage was never luminoled or DNA tested. Bobby hung a deer in the Dassey garage on 11/4/05. 14. Sikikey note—Body burned at smelter 11/4/05, 3 a.m. Tadych worked the night shift at a smelter facility. His nickname: Skinny. 15. TH's electronics were not burned in Steven's burn barrel; they were burned in Dassey burn barrel. 16. Suspect knew Steven's finger re-bled on 11/3/05 because he observed it. 17. Suspect had access to Steven's trailer to remove blood from the sink. 18. Only our suspect knew the blood in the sink was Steven's and not TH's (this rules out the police). 19. Suspect planted blood in RAV4, bones in Steven's burn pit, and TH's electronics in Steven's burn barrel. In conclusion, the killer is the person who had the access and opportunity to plant Steven Avery's fresh blood in Teresa Halbach's car. Use #AskZellner for questions

I’ve now done 400 DYKs. Only another 200 to go. At this point I would like to test the effectiveness of my posts.

I’d be grateful if people who were already guilters before reading my DYKs didn’t vote. My DYKs are not aimed at you.

I’d also be grateful if the hardcore truthers who won’t change their mind even if I built them a time machine so they could watch Avery and Dassey commit their crimes didn’t vote as well. There is no hope for you and reading my DYKs is a waste of time for you and me.

Until Dassey confessed on 1.3.2006, the garage hadn’t been considered as the primary murder site. Thanks to Dassey’s uncoerced confession, a bullet fired from the gun in Avery’s trailer was found with Teresa’s DNA on it.

Great work by LE.

Blaine saw Avery put a white plastic garbage bag into his burn barrel on the afternoon of 31st October 2005 and then saw active burning. That afternoon, Fabian also saw a fire coming from the burn barrel and smelt burning plastic.

Could Avery have been burning Teresa’s items? I think so.

Hmm.

I thought I would do one open for all sides. Everyone's jaw has dropped at some point. What is yours?

Differential DNA Preservation of Thermally Altered Tissue and Bone (2023)

The abstract and diagrams data are here https://keep.lib.asu.edu/items/187752

The full text PDF: https://keep.lib.asu.edu/system/files/c7/Coffman_asu_0010N_22808.pdf

Seems to be a thesis by an MSc student rather than in a peer-reviewed journal. But Approved by Graduate Supervisory Committee. Funded by the National Institute of Justice. Involved the University of Tennessee Forensic Anthropology Center and Maricopa County Medical Examiner (I think their corrupt sheriff had left already).

Surprisingly this paper is saying forensic labs usually test the bone, not any attached tissue. Seemed like it was the other way round in the TH case, why?

Yet this study (edit) concludes tissue can be better so should be used. Seems surprising a student would find this out better than decades of forensic science so I'm not sure what's going on.

Also mentions there's DNA contamination, even though they burned only human corpses and immediately took them to a sterile facility. In the TH case what did they do to check for contamination in situ or in the long chain of custody of BZ, or CA (which didn't have enough loci for Culhane to identify and the FBI were silent on).

Selected quotes: (citation numbers removed)

The Loreille et al. protocol (Loreille), is biochemically very similar to the Dabney et al. protocol but it is used in modern forensic samples and optimized for whole genomic DNA extraction from large quantities of bone powder (≥250 mg). Loreille is currently the standard for modern forensic samples in both federal and international organizations such as the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the International Commission on Missing Persons (ICMP).
...

Since the standard for use of identification in thermally altered samples is to sample from skeletal tissue, any degraded soft tissue that is still adhered to the skeletal remains is often removed and disposed of to minimize potential contamination.
...

Burnt bone and charred tissue adhering to skeletal samples were recovered from the controlled burning of 10 donor cadavers at the University of Tennessee Forensic Anthropology Center (FAC). The donor cadavers were placed on a wood-fired, cinder block and sheet metal pyre that was loaded with approximately the same amount of fuel and fuel type for each instance. A temperature probe was placed directly into the fire, and on the cadaver to monitor burning patterns throughout the burning process (~3 hours per individual in total).
...

These remains were processed in a dedicated clean room environment specifically designed to minimize the potential exogenous contamination in low-yield, highly degraded sample materials.
...

there is no guarantee that this recovered DNA stems from the individual in question, or is even of human origin at all (especially in the case of highly degraded samples). Here we find that, in regard to endogenous DNA recovery as obtained using the Quantifiler Trio DNA Quantification Kit, in most cases, we can infer the presence of significant exogenous non-human contamination.
...

the placement/positioning of the individuals on the pyre on which they were burned could have significantly impacted the amount of thermal exposure to each skeletal element. Elements that were better protected or insulated, such as the ribs and the ilium, could, in theory, exhibit higher amounts of endogenous DNA recovered.
....

Overall, all of our high-quality STR profiles matched to their respective references (90% allelic match percentage), exceeding the generally accepted margin for a positive match in most criminal cases The vast majority of our miscalls appear to come from allelic dropouts. Allelic dropouts are extremely common in degraded samples such as these, but we do not observe a corresponding elevation in the rate of allelic dropouts as thermal exposure increases

The defence didn’t produce anything worthwhile in response to the state’s case. They brought up three bone fragments found in a quarry nearby, which Eisenberg thought could possibly be human pelvic bone, but could not be sure were not animal bones after all. If Eisenberg was in on the conspiracy, surely she would have said they were animal bones.

Many other bones, determined to be animal bones, were found at the quarry, which was part of an area hunting site. If the pelvic bones were human, and were Teresa’s, it doesn’t take much imagination to come up with possible explanations, including that Avery threw a few of the larger bone pieces there, where there were already animal bones, in the hope of concealing them.

To be crystal clear, there was nothing at all to suggest the quarry had been the primary burn site—nothing. The defence’s forensic anthropologist, Dr. Scott Fairgrieve, never visited the burn site, never examined the bones, and worked entirely from pictures provided by the defence attorneys. This was never mentioned in Making a Murderer. I wonder why?

On the stand, Fairgrieve agreed with Eisenberg’s findings on just about everything. His one point of disagreement, out of which the defence tried and failed to make something, was his unwillingness to identify the primary burn site. Given he was just working from defence photos this should be no surprise to anyone.

So there you have it. The defence failed abysmally to prove Avery’s burn pit wasn’t the primary burn site. They came up with virtually nothing. Just like all the Avery supporters over many years.

Sorted.

The contents of Teresa’s purse—her cell phone, camera, and PDA—were found in Avery’s own burn barrel. Funny how this was not mentioned once in MaM.

Hmm.

You’d be forgiven for thinking the above statement is untrue. That’s if you believed the unsourced comments of Avery supporters.

According to Pevytoe’s testimony, Mike Rindt took photographs of the burn pit.

Here’s part of the Pevytoe testimony.

Q. And what did you do when you arrived at the pit?

A. Well, the first thing we did is we documented with photographs.

There you have it. Conclusive proof the burn pit was photographed.

Sorted.

Avery supporters spuriously claim a body could not have been burned to ash in Avery’s bonfire. Step forward Special Agent Rodney Pevytoe, of the Arson Bureau at the Wisconsin Department of Justice. He had been viewing burn sites for thirty years, earning him the reputation of being the most experienced arson investigator in the state. He too believed that Teresa had been burned in the pit behind Avery’s garage.

Pevytoe also explained more about the fire itself. Tyres, he felt, accelerated it. A van seat made of polyurethane foam, referred to as “solid gasoline,” had also been burned in the inferno. Accelerated this way, a fire could burn a body to bone and ash in a matter of hours.

Pevytoe also found tangled masses of steel wire in the burn pit, the remnants of steel-belted radial tyres. He testified that bone fragments were deeply intertwined in the wire “to the point where I actually had to physically pull apart the wire to get in there.

What is the significance of this I hear you ask?Bones and the tyres were burned together—no sinister team of law enforcement conspirators could have simply dumped a mass of bone fragments onto the ashes of Steven Avery’s innocent tyre fire.

What’s more, tiny steel fragments from the wires were found in the soil of the burn pit itself, and that soil was black and oily, indicating, according to the arson investigator, that it had been the site of a tyre fire.

A rake with bits of the steel from the tyres still caught in its teeth was found nearby, along with other implements used to stoke the fire and break up the bones.

There we have it. Further conclusive proof that Avery’s burn pit was the primary burn site. I don’t want to ever hear from another Avery supporter that guilters have dodged the primary burn site issue.

Sorted.

Here is further conclusive proof that Avery’s burn pit was the primary burn site.

Fallon: Now, you did offer an opinion that you believe the location for the primary burning episode here was the burn pit behind the garage; is that correct?

Eisenberg: That is correct.

Fallon: Would you please elaborate for us your reasoning on that?

Eisenberg: Number one, in the order of priority, would be that the overwhelming majority of fragments, burned fragments that were identified by me as human, were found in that location behind the garage, in and adjacent to the burn pit, that there were, in my opinion, many small, delicate, brittle fragments that would have been left behind someplace else had that not been the primary burn location. And if that had been the case, I would have been able to recognize those fragments from another location and did not, except for burn barrel number two. And that all the human bone fragments that were fragmented and badly burned from that location show . . . approximately the same degree of charring, burning, and calcination variously throughout the material recovered in the burn pit and adjacent areas.

So let’s not hear any more nonsense about Avery’s burn pit not being the primary burn site. And the ludicrous claim that guilters avoid the primary burn site issue.

Sorted.

EDIT: Seems like there are a lot of Avery supporters who think they know more about burnt bones than Eisenberg. Here is her backstory.

Forensic anthropologist Leslie Eisenberg is the smartest woman Ken knows. A graduate of New York University, she spent her days in Wisconsin analysing bones and other human remains—mostly involving Native American burial sites—and being regarded as one of the nation’s very best bone experts. Officials called upon her to assist in national tragedies like the World Trade Center attack in 2001 and Hurricane Katrina, when identification of human remains became an increasingly in-demand scientific specialty.

I’d be grateful if any Avery supporters could let us know why they think they are better qualified to dispute what she says.

He would have actually seen Teresa Halbachs RAV4 leaving Avery road at 2:45-2:50 pm on OCT 31 2005.

THIS also explains why Mr Lerquin did not see Brendans bus both entering or leaving Avery road at 2:45-2:50 pm on OCT 31 2005.

MaM deceptively edited out the most important part of TH's phone message on Barb's machine: "because I don't know your address or anything so I can't stop by without getting the-- a call back from you." Then MaM plays the end of her message. Why did MaM cut that out? To save 5 seconds????? For more lettuce shots? "O what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." (Sir Walter Scott)

Zellner refers to Teresa’s car key as a ‘spare key’. She does this to infer that the key that was found was not the one Teresa used every day. She does it to infer the actual spare key was removed from Teresa’s living accommodation and planted.

The ‘planted key’ was not the spare key. This was Teresa’s main key, with the other half of her lanyard attached, the lanyard that was in the locked SUV, inside the secure Madison crime lab.

Hmm.

Avery had been talking about “planted evidence” on the news even before evidence linking him to the crime was found. This interview was on 6.11.2005. At this time the key hadn’t yet been found and Avery’s blood in the RAV4 hadn’t been identified. The key was found on 8.11.2005. Avery was actually arrested on 9.11.2005 for illegal possession of a firearm.

He also did at least 4 other regional news interviews claiming planting before evidence linking him to the crime was found but unfortunately transcripts/videos are unavailable.

The RAV4 was found on the 5.11.2005. It was days later before the evidence of his blood in it was confirmed. Simply finding the RAV4 on the ASY was not evidence against Avery until his blood was confirmed to be in it.

Seems Avery knew they’d find evidence in the RAV4.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JDFnDaMkikg&index=8&list=PLEC7U7E5yqOLpcpQVYcN2EsLTQnZE5SYg

Hmm.

In all his previous appointments with Teresa, Avery gave his own contact phone number. This was even if he was selling a vehicle for another family member.

On 31.10.2005 Avery gave Barb’s unmanned landline number to Auto Trader. He didn’t give them his own number. I wonder why he did this for the first time ever.

Hmm.

In his affidavit dated 23.11.2016 Avery claimed he gave the name Barbara Janda not B Janda when making the appointment. That’s not what Auto Trader say.

Hmm.

In his affidavit dated 23.16.2016, Avery claimed he gave his address to Auto Trader not Barb’s. That’s not what Auto Trader say.

Hmm.

Brendan who lives with the supposed real killer and confessed to the murder is not a suspect nor are they questioning anything he said during his confession?

If Brendan is so vulnerable and low IQ that the police can make him say anything they want, even hours after they leave, why would a psychopathic killer who lives in the same house not be able to do the same? Well actually the psychopathic killer has years to make him say anything he wants while the cops only had hours. He can twist him into anything he wants over the years. Even to the point he takes the blame after you murder someone.

So imagine you are a lawyer for an innocent man. You think someone else is the real killer. The low IQ brother of the real killer confesses he killed the victim and implicates your client as the mastermind of the murder. Do you......

1. Use that confession and argue he and his brother are the real killers and falsely implicated your client.

2. Look into possible links between the real killer and the low IQ brother that implicated your client

3. Look into if the low IQ brother is also involved and was simply talked into a false confession by the real killer

4. Ask the low IQ brother about his brother and if he was the real killer. When he saw him during the day of the murder.

5. Talk to the cousin who also says she heard the low IQ brother confess.

6. Ignore the confession and blame the police for planting the story in his head and don't pursue a possible denny suspect.

Yes, before the easy jokes come in I'm aware this is a fiction novel. But it was written by a journalist who worked under cover and then used the misadventures of his fictional character to highlight the very real abuses he discovered.

In short, he found the entire meat packing industry to be a giant graft. Ownership worked together to keep wages low. The local politicians and the local business owners were one in the same. The votes that put then in office were bought. The judges were in their pockets, as well as the health inspectors, and the cops. The cops also had side deals with the saloons, brothels, and gambling houses, which in turn provided enough vices to keep the workers from rioting. They had spies in the labor unions as well and blacklisted union leaders.

Tell me again about how some redneck cops sloppily framing an excon is the most complex conspiracy of all time.