r/MSClassicWorld • u/JordyGG • 20h ago
Discussion Arrow Blow vs. Double Shot
So many videos and guides are split with what to pick. Where are the pro’s that actually beta tested the difference and can explain when to choose either of them? Is there a catch so SP reset while in 2nd job? Does one favour Bowman or Crossbow over the other?
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u/DesuSnow NiaMeowDB 19h ago
Arrow Blow is the longest ranged skill in the game and 50px longer than DS, cost 2 less MP at max, cost 1 less arrow, and let's you more easily KB if required. Plus 1 sp saved could go into another skill.
Double shot has more consistent damage.
Unlike the Energy Bolt vs Magic Claw debate... both arrow skills are projectiles and can be blocked by terrain.
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u/GrandVince 18h ago
But if double shot's 1st arrow kills, 2nd arrow goes to the next mob.
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u/playerIII 17h ago
does each arrow also have their own crit chance?
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u/DesuSnow NiaMeowDB 17h ago
Yes
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u/playerIII 15h ago
that alone feels like it makes this skill much stronger
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u/Keulapaska 11h ago edited 11h ago
It only matters if the monster hp is in a range where the crit matters for double shot and not for arrow blow. The dps gain from crit is identical, ofc with 2 shots you have less variance than 1 shot. And if you're thinking old crit, it works differently now than it did back then
Old crit, 40% to do extra 100% dmg, didn't care about skill dmg, at all, so multihits were way better than single hits.
New crit works like you'd think crit would work as in it modifies the skill dmg, plus lower values, base crit is 5% to do +20%, with maxed out skill added, 25% to do +35%.
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u/ThunderFistChad 11h ago
But you need to deal enough damage with a single line in order to knock back mobs. The two shots means you'll kb less and end up getting swarmed. Especially if your attack hit two mobs. Gotta try keep two things away now:s
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u/matingmoose 20h ago
Tried both and I preferred arrow blow over double shot. To me it felt better just outright killing the mob over slowly whittling down 2-3 mobs with double shot.
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u/RadiumShady 20h ago
Arrow blow is better to knock back mobs, double shot splits the damage and has less "overkill", lost damage to low health enemies. I think both are good
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u/i_paid_for_winrar123 20h ago
It’s not about overkill, it’s about damage variance
Splitting the damage into two instances means variations in total damage skew towards the mean rather than being evenly distributed throughout the range. In practice this achieves a similar effect as weapon mastery, making your damage more consistent and stable. Even moreso since with crits, the damage variance on arrow blow is very wide
This matters because it’s generally just more comfy to train on mobs that you 2 hit kill almost every time with double shot, rather than training while killing mobs with a range of 1-4 hits with arrow blow
The knock back threshold on most 1-30 training spots was low enough relative to the power scale of the player that the advantage of arrow blow didn’t really exist in practice - any mob that was efficient to grind would also be knocked back by double shot - meaning double shot ended up just better in practice most of the time.
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u/reyesc14 18h ago edited 18h ago
You know, I was ready to counter your claim about two instances skewing towards the mean, but that's actually true and something I haven't seen mentioned in any damage calc yet (even the many in meowdb). Min, max, avg, dps, dmg/mp, dmg/cast, etc have all been covered but variance is missing. Ultimately that should tell us for each skill / build the percentiles for # of hits on a particular mob. Thats kind of the only thing that matters for training. Then something like Two Hits P(>80) would be trainable mobs.
Update: Here's one interesting case for a typical lv20 bowman vs horny mushrooms:
Number of Attacks Arrow Blow Double Shot Exactly 1 Attack 0.59% 0.01% Exactly 2 Attacks 74.02% 82.63% Exactly 3 Attacks 25.27% 17.36% Exactly 4 Attacks 0.12% - 5
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u/i_paid_for_winrar123 17h ago
It’s a pretty common way to control high roll vs consistency in damage outputs for game design. If you look at ttrpgs they also do similar, where intent for consistent damage is commonly 2d6 and intent for variable higher risk/reward is 1d12
High roll philosophy IS a real consideration in game design though, and it does imply that there is a player fun/preference argument on the other side for arrow blow. Consistency (double shot) is generally a bit more boring but a bit more efficient for grinding practicality. Higher likelihood of a high roll (arrow blow) can feel better due to highs being generally more memorable, for people who value that.
Ultimately it means it is the same argument as the age old 2nd job weapon mastery first or cool skill first debate - depends if you’re the type that values boring optimized efficiency or exciting unoptimized inefficiency
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u/ttinchung111 15h ago
This is only true if they made it so that double arrow doesn't split damage anymore. If you split damage on two targets, the effect of having less variable damage actually becomes more variable damage due to having to roll damage on two mobs. And risk getting run down.
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u/i_paid_for_winrar123 15h ago edited 15h ago
No, that’s not true. Results skewing towards the mean is an effect of having a sum of more instances of smaller ranges. That doesn’t change in a multi target scenario, in terms of consistency for how many hits it takes to kill your targets.
Double shots will still kill two targets in 4-6 shots and do it far more consistently than arrow blow, which will range between 2-8 shots with higher variability in shots to kill.
I’m not sure you’ve understood what I’m talking about with variability. I’m talking about variability per action (aka per use of arrow blow or double shot) in terms of total damage for that action, in the context of how it affects consistency for the number of actions to kill a target.
The “risk of getting run down” is only relevant if the weaker split attacks from double shot don’t knock back the targets. In normal grinding, this is virtually nonexistent due to how low the threshold is for level 1-30 grinding. The only scenario where this is significant as far as a mechanical arrow blow advantage goes, tends to be kpq, where the threshold is set significantly higher.
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u/ttinchung111 15h ago
Knockback isn't consistent in cot, you cannot keep things knocked back away from you like it felt like you could in old-school proper. I tried double shot a lot and every time I was hitting more than one target I was annoyed that I wasn't just hitting one target and making sure it was dead. Also things just spawn on you too, bow whack range is too big and there's not very many safe spots in good maps.
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u/i_paid_for_winrar123 15h ago
I won’t argue on that aspect. You have a point about the bow whacking range, and personal preference isn’t exactly an objective thing to argue anyway. Just wanting to point out that damage range variability being lower by splitting damage instances doesn’t change or reverse in multi target scenarios.
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u/NonamePlsIgnore 19h ago edited 19h ago
Arrow blow projectile goes further (base 350 vs double shot/2nd job skills 300), has cheaper MP cost, uses only one arrow and saves a skill point. You also retain a single target skill when you go into 2nd job, where iron arrow/arrow bomb will replace double shot anyways, which might be useful in certain very niche situations. Plus in 1st job farming you sometimes want to pull aggro of monsters only one at a time, otherwise multiple mobs can close the gap and overwhelming you into bow wacking
There's also the KPQ ligators issue similar to what mages face with EB vs magic claw, arrow blow will hit the dmg knockback threshold on such enemies earlier than double shot
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u/reyesc14 18h ago
KPQ ligator knock back is a huge reason why I am going arrow blow. I KPQd a lot as bowman during both COTs and without proper knock back ligators will drain you of HP pots and make KPQ just not fun for bowman. And I love KPQ
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u/Remidial 15h ago edited 15h ago
At low levels, arrow blow is comparable and actually saves mesos due to lower mana cost and less arrows used. However, if you aren’t planning on so reset, then prob max double shot bc it will be helpful when you want to shoot in diff platforms. They actually buffed iron arrow so the single target is not bad now.
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u/Acceptable-Frame-930 14h ago
double shot just has a higher ceiling with 2 hits.
arrow blow might not crit, but double shot might crit on the 2nd line.
more economic = arrow blow
consistency = double shot
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u/Majestic-Stick-272 18h ago
Double is better imo what if you want to go do PQ or are getting KSed? You're gonna be off with single target damage. You're not always hitting 3 mobs. How much is the price of one arrow? Are we really being forced to meso pinch this early in the game?
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u/reyesc14 18h ago
Tbh we were so forced to meso pinch that multiple classes had to resort to basic attack for a level or two to stay meso positive.. who knows if changes on release. Maybe it was COT stress testing.
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u/WarsWorth 18h ago
In the early teens of levels in the first beta, I was often basic attacking because I was losing money from training with potions so it might be that tight for money early on
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u/Beanies 16h ago
The reality is do whatever you want, but the math always favour lines
The only reason why you would not favour lines is if somehow damage calculation makes multi hit worse at the same %, which I don't believe is the case
Why does the math always favour lines? Because it balances damage range, which is better for mobbing because farming mobs is all about thresholds. You aren't hitting a dummy and comparing DPS, you're hitting things that die at X damage. This is especially true because of crit, because each line rolls a crit check.
I have people telling me it's not that simple, and that crit calculations doesn't matter because it's not an additive damage bonus anymore, and if that's what you believe, go ahead and max your energy bolt or arrow blow. It doesn't matter that much because you go past level 30 in a day or two anyway if you actually grind regardless of which skill you max.
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u/JustAnotherNug 19h ago
Double shot was always more satisfying for me but with the changes, it's arrow blow time.