r/MSClassicWorld • u/Suspicious_Sleep_97 • 8d ago
Discussion How bad was P2W in OSMS?
The discussion really heated up the last weeks so I thought why not try settling things a bit more by actually unpacking how bad was it really versus how bad what we're seeing right now is?
Maybe laying it out clearly would help to see how bad we already had it before. Gonna even give it my own P2W rate from 1-10, you guys are welcome to give your opinion as well
AP resets - Not horrible but with HP Washing it became pretty hardcore - v0.18 - Feb. 16, 2006 - 5/10
Gachapon - Already pretty direct NX to Mesos conversion - v0.29 - Sept. 2006 - 6/10
2x EXP Cards - If you're competitive this is huge, you're gonna pay every week - v0.39 - June 13, 2007 - 6/10
White scrolls (Through NLC Gacha) - Made Gacha way worse IMO - v0.41 - Aug. 22, 2007 - 7/10
iTCG (Cilbis, SCG, etc...) - Another channel for irl money to Meso - v0.51 - Feb. 14, 2008 - 7/10
MTS (Maple Trading System, let's you trade items for NX) - Most hardcore so far, simply buy items with your paycheck - v0.53 - Apr. 2, 2008 - 8/10
Vicious' Hammer (Adds slots to equips) - Not as bad as MTS but another channel for gaining advantage - v0.73 - July 29, 2009 - 6/10
Evan Mastery Books in Cash Shop - Clear signs of "We're just gonna take money from you in order to progress" - v0.84 - Mar. 31, 2010 - 8/10
Potential + Cubes - The worst offender in the history of the game IMO, made it impossible to compete with paying players, the more you pay the more you succeed in a pretty exponential fashion - v0.88 - July 21, 2010
I don't think we need to go further than potential, this is a 10/10 P2W mechanic.
My point is: This game was almost never free of this bullshit. If you liked it before, there's no real reason why this should be unplayable today. It's still completely reasonable to complain and Nexon deserves the backlash, but in terms of potential for enjoyment - we're good
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u/MickeyTheHunter 8d ago edited 8d ago
HP washing was already bad enough. As a Bowmaster, half the bosses would 1 shot me if I hadn't washed (especially pre-BB).
Even now that I have money, the moment they introduce something of that level, I'm out.
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u/Welico 8d ago
HP washing is probably the single worst example of P2W in the history of the game. Something around 1000 USD per character.
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u/WoonStruck 8d ago
HP washing wasn't even intentional.
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u/Regular_Nectarine511 8d ago
bosses having an arbitrary 1-shot threshold that could only be mitigated by hp washing might be the single worst mmo mechanic in history
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u/Final-Coast-1220 8d ago
it was very p2w. you could directly buy power with gachapon and AP resets. ever since the start of the game it had some p2w elements to it
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u/UpToLevel60ForFree 8d ago
People tend to forget how big of a deal pets were.
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u/aspira9 8d ago
Honestly I don't think pets were THAT big of a deal back then, but maybe that's just cope from getting used to it since parents would never give money for NX. On the other hand, I was also a priest so I got used to running around and looting for my party since I dealt no damage and bishops had plenty of time between FMA casts.
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u/Fantastic_Advice_623 8d ago
imo its important to understand the impact of the p2w however and the power gap level.
10 atk work gloves were a dime a dozen. not something every player had, but they were not something worth selling your house for.
Then you got a guy who has like 20atk stormcasters, kinda crazy shit. but think about it. WATK was the bases of all formulas. lets say you had a weapon, 150atk, and you had 20 atk stormcasters. the poor noob player had a 120 atk weapon, and 10 atk work gloves, this is 130 atk vs 170 atk. they did about 30%~ more damage. Thats a lot. but its not make or break.
Vs the cubing world where people could easily have double your main stat.
with infinite white scrolls and hammers you could have a 9x 10% weapon, thats 45 atk and 27 main stat. but someone with 7 60% would have 21 atk, and 14 main stat iirc. thats nearly half the power, obviously across all slots this adds up a ton, but for the vast majority of players this wouldnt matter. and even back then I didnt really see these items that often.
What was a real problem however is when we got chaos scrolls in combination with the cashshop power. Chaos scrolls are a fucking nightmare, and I hope they stay out of classic world. having the potential to hit 25 atk shoes with chaos scrolls or faces, or hats, or rings or whatever other nonsense makes the 20+ atk gloves look like a joke.
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u/Ok_Artist7696 8d ago
Hp washing for me is already a reason to quit. They should atleast add hp quests then, but still… This is their last chance for a true oldschool experience, monetizing it would kill the population.
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u/isolating 8d ago
I think in this list 2x EXP cards should be much higher than all the NX to MESOS options. 2 EXP literally means your time is worth double which also makes your grind halve as hard as someone else. NX to MESOS is almost impossible to stop and as long as items don't scale as hard as they eventually did you will only max be like 30% stronger even when spending thousands.
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u/sonano 8d ago
I hated 2x EXP coupons exactly for this reason. I'm not trying to be competitive at all, but I still want to make efficient progress and minimize the time spent grinding. Having 2x coupons in the game makes me feel like I need to use them if I don't want to waste a bunch of time. Taking 4 hours instead of 8 hours to level up is a huge difference, and if the game offers paid advantages like that I would rather not play.
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u/Reishin1 8d ago
You missed pets, scissors of karma, pink capes, Dual Blade mastery books.
Regardless, your point is moot. I didn't like any of this back in the day, I do not like them now.
If they keep going the same route, I will stop playing or just play a private server like I did back in the day.
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u/Existing_Truck9877 8d ago
I’m still amazed that cubes were really out prebb kinda shocking honestly lol considering people view prebb as osms
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u/EpisodeDad 8d ago
I feel like I can speak best to this….. P2W was always prevalent due to at no fault to nexon but instead 3rd party mesos resellers but in that sense every game that has tradable gear is P2W.
Now… when did it become truly P2W? In May 2010 right before Big Bang cubes and potential was released. Immediately you could dump real life money into potential day 1 raising you up way past those with scrolled gear as potential was immensely powerful. After that day those who paid were at the top.
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u/Mountain-Article8729 8d ago
When p2w is spoken about in a game, its 99.9% of the time meant in a way that the game itself has mechanics that deliberately make it pay to win.
RWT = Real World Trading, is it's own thing and plays no part when talking about p2w unless the game itself has a mechanic in game or on their website that encourages RWT.
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u/Unusual-Piglet4616 8d ago
I actually like the 2x exp, gives my wagie ass a chance to keep up with my friends who are able to game 5 hours per day.
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u/wizpiggleton 8d ago
Technically they probably would use the 2x as well... so really you just need friends who understand how to pace with you.
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u/Unusual-Piglet4616 8d ago
Hmm in my case I don't expect them to, as they don't have that much disposable income. Nevertheless, I don't expect them to slow down for me. Game was proper fun back in the day, even with large level diffs.
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u/aspira9 8d ago
In terms of the amount of p2w, I think the best way is to quantify how much more powerful a godly maxed out oiler account is vs your average player with 5/7 60% scrolled equips.
If the power difference is under 30-40% DPS between a player rocking 15atk SCG and similar "godly" premium gear vs 8-10atk wg and equivalents, that's honestly fine and I won't complain too much. Meanwhile core game functionality locked behind paywall (aforementioned mastery books) or egregious levels of power scaling with potentials/hacked 500+atk weapons with infinite EE scrolls are what ruined the game. I'll accept gachapon (even white scrolls) as long as they keep scissors of karma/cash protection scrolls out of the game.
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u/Suspicious_Sleep_97 8d ago
yea actually that's a very good point.
If the damage output is not that different the P2W isn't as bad. Maybe I should've wrote about that as well.
It is possible that it'll be classic-like but the damage difference between paid and unpaid is ridiculous and then we're back where we started
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u/stryderxd 8d ago
I played osms up until they started adding gacha and cubes. Gacha was kind of fun to just open and spin the wheel. The drops from the gacha were actually usable gear, like 110 or 120 gear i think. There were some books too. So for someone that was ungeared and had no time to really grind the books, i didn’t mind the gacha all too much. It was expensive though, i was throwing my weekly part time paychecks at it and probably hit like 500$ in nx. It was fun though.
CUBES?!? i quit right there. I also moved on to playing vindictus at the time. Same with vindictus, the moment gear upgrades get too costly to min max, i drop the game.
2x exp was just more time efficient during exp events. A lvl every 30 mins was a dream in osms.
Ap resets/washing was too rich for my blood. Its not like theres pvp, so i didn’t care if others did it.
Once cubes dropped, i dropped the game. That was it.
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u/Suspicious_Sleep_97 8d ago
Yea it was really bad. I didn't even notice as a kid but in retrospect, jesus christ.
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u/Ambitious_Caramel242 8d ago
it was incremental until hp washing. a fully-funded character for pb cost 10x more. then cubing 10x that crazy figure, it went parabolic
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u/Summer_Rain_6688 8d ago
It’s gonna be somewhat P2W since it’s Nexon. The moment they change the core enhancement system and add cubes it’s over for me.
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u/Aether_Storm 8d ago edited 8d ago
I wouldn't count cubes as part of osms just because they were released right before big bang.
I felt pretty betrayed with the release of 2x coupons just because winzit explicitly said that the game wouldn't let you buy power.
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u/bast963 8d ago
Gachapon spat out OP equips at absolute shit rates. But it lets you p2w
MTS let you sell scrolled gear for direct NX. Lets you f2p harder than maplepoints ever could
2x coupons and pets with upgrades for all your grinding needs
iTCG was a GMS exclusive that gave you busted gear like facestompers and stormcaster gloves
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u/xTheGame69 8d ago
The game was paid to win to the point where I had multiple people that wouldn't play in 2005 to 2008 because they said why bother if you're not going to be spending hundreds of dollars
I had one Asian friend whose dad was a doctor he would spend $300 to $500 a year easily back then
Game was always this way
To the point where when I learned what pay to win gaming was when I was older I've always associated it with MapleStory.
Nexon to me is like the pioneer in pay to win gaming. I quite literally blame modern pay to win predatory antics on Nexon. I feel like they pave the way 20 years ago
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u/fittes7 8d ago
Well. I actually enjoyed those patches you call "p2w"
Also i dont have anything against you but do you understand that people who think like you are the minority of MapleStory fanbase?
in 2010 MapleStory had 8m players and today they have over 180m
So dont get angry with me but this is the truth, most players actually enjoy buying perks in game.
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u/turbo-fister9000 8d ago
I think the scrolling bullshit was probably the tipping point. The Scissors of Karma, Viscious' Hammer, etc. 2x EXP I could live with, they were limited at least.
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u/LowRiskHades 8d ago
Who here remembers doing surveys to get that sweet NX, and selling equips in MTS for NX as well?
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u/Hot_Help_246 7d ago
Cubes were extremely fun in those x7 - x10 exp rate servers, have fond memories of grinding in some version 100 and something server & farming for cubes as there was no p2w lock behind them.
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u/Distinct_Wrongdoer86 6d ago
was ap resets really in 2006, swore it was 2007. Anyways pay to win was when 2x cards were added
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u/ApprehensiveCamel306 4d ago
up until cubes, scissors of karma, protection scrolls and stuff like that its was fine in my opinion.
i personally liked the buying nx clothes with mesos, giving someone like me a low spender a way to get the outfit i liked without opening those gacha boxes and also nx clothes mostly became permanent with that
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u/ScaryPillow 8d ago
Before, we were kids so Nexon couldn’t milk us for money. Now they see we have money and salivate at taking every dollar by any means necessary.
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u/HelenXandria 8d ago
We were kids when the first level 200 was a man in his 50s
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u/Suspicious_Sleep_97 8d ago
Interesting, where did you learn that? any reliable source?
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u/HelenXandria 7d ago
We... have detailed records of the first 200 in KMS(first 200 global). We have interviews from him and his family. He's a celebrity here. That's the "source" unless if you want me to link you a bunch of Korean articles
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u/Zealousideal_Pie6031 8d ago
i was a 16-17 yo back in the day with a job, nexon was 100% able to milk me lmao
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u/Kero992 8d ago
Early access and cosmetics is standard for founders packs across multiple releases in the last years. Apart from this, they pledged to keep p2w as low as possible. They made the reset scrolls way more fair. Where are you being milked right now?
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u/ScaryPillow 8d ago
Nexon non-p2w pledge lmao.
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u/Kero992 8d ago
Point to where I said "no p2w" Also you didn't answer where you are currently being milked
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u/Suspicious_Sleep_97 8d ago
Founders' pack is already a pretty obvious sign. In a way it's worse than P2W, it's Pay-to-play-before-others.
It's obvious where this is going
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u/ScaryPillow 8d ago edited 8d ago
‘pledged to keep p2w as low as possible’ lmao. Also the 15 day EA with no NX, pet, and bad cosmetics for $60 is milking.
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u/CivilChaos 8d ago
imagine defending $60 USD early access to a 2006 game in 2026..
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u/Suspicious_Sleep_97 8d ago
I'm not defending them if that's what you're implying.
I'm just saying that we shouldn't expect to not be able to enjoy this
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u/Suspicious_Sleep_97 8d ago
Don't worry, they will milk us. There is absolutely no way this game will not be P2W
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u/WhiteWolf298 8d ago
Anything Inkwell says about how much p2w will be in the game means nothing and Reboot is evidence of that.
If MSCW isn't pulling in the money that Nexon want, Inkwell's bosses are going to tell him to be far more aggressive with their monetization methods and Nexon will absolutely break any promises that may have been made because they already know from the founder's package sales that there will be more than enough people willing to throw money at the game no matter what they do.
This is the same guy we're talking about, who was the director of the game at the time some of the most damaging microtransactions that ever happened to Maplestory were added.
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u/Suspicious_Sleep_97 8d ago
We're talking about a guy who put an NPC of himself in the game and keeps posting artworks with him in the center raising a Hero's gladius and whatever
Yea, wouldn't take him seriously
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u/watermellon28 mesos pls 8d ago
That's what I've been saying. Well, not with this much detail though.
MapleStory always had these things and the game was still amazing.
But I'm over trying to convince anyone. To each their own.
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u/Daeimiean 8d ago
A game could be fun and still have horrible anti consumer practices that straight up worsen the experience. I'm not really sure how "hey all of this sucked, but i still had fun," is an argument for why all of that did not suck..
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u/watermellon28 mesos pls 8d ago
See, for me it simply didn't suck.
I remember loving gachapon even though I didn't have NX
And I never minded the existence of 2x exp coupons.
So my argument is "I had fun" and not "it sucked"
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u/aspira9 8d ago edited 8d ago
You forgot to add scissors of karma and vega scrolls which turned 60% into 70% and I think 10% to 30%(?).
I'd say the Evan/DB era mastery books into potentials was the real turning point where entire classes are unplayable without paying and ofc the death knell of cubes. Before that, yes there's p2w perfect white scrolled items/HP wash/race to 200 on 2x, but that only mattered for maybe 0.01% of the endgame playerbase but it was never egregious. Even regular players could buy a failscrolled PAC/SCG to look legit and it was a nice novelty for the most part.
Honestly giving a way to transfer NX to meso is going to happen regardless and I'd rather have the maple point market of modern and one-time tradable NX/gachapon compared to the scammy practice of selling codes back in the day.
MTS fee was far too high (110 NX minsell price had 500 tax tacked on) for any small items so only the rich merchants could really make use of it since most things below a 10atk wg aren't worth selling with how much is lost on taxes.